Revised ITR list in Fast Track
- Thread starter Andy Bettencourt
- Start date
Z3_GoCar
New member
There's a good reason to compaire that's to eliminate the unknown factor, the fact that no 2.8l has been prepared for IT, no Z3 has had to compete with this level of hp and torque. What better way to see what works and get a ball park than to compaire the known (e-36 325) with the unknown? Who cares if the prep rules are different?? The over all effect should be the same. I suspect that given the dirth of Z3's competing in either J-Stock or J-Prepared indicate that the 328 in either the e-36 or e-46 versions is a much more potent chassis/engine combination. However, say that 2800lbs, is still too much and my car's never competitve at that weight. Say I can't get out of the way of the ITS field fast enough, what then?? Do I get someone else to confirm that I give up x.xx seconds per lap, what's my options then??
Marshall,
They're afraid of the exhaust headers, open Motec ecu's, and spherical suspension bushings are going to kick their a
James
Ron Earp
Administrator
Maybe they are scared of the potential of SCCA drivers.......
You know the difference between JP and IT, and I know the difference, but I'm not sure JP drivers know the difference. At least, the Footnotes magazine we get in the SE writes from time to time of JP drivers crossing over and showing the SCCA boys how it is done, or eluding to that fact. That could be an issue in ITR if it attracts a large BMW group of Preppared rules drivers wanting another place to run their car from time to time. And if not checked carefully could lead to BMWs being a "problem child" in R. Just thinking aloud here and hoping nothing like that happens.
R
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Rob,
328 is the E36 and that one year of E46 328ci.
Kirk,
It does set precident - and one that the CRB doesn't seem to upset about. Other cars have th epotential for dual classification but VERY few will get status.
The Z3 will include both vert and coupe.
328 is the E36 and that one year of E46 328ci.
Kirk,
It does set precident - and one that the CRB doesn't seem to upset about. Other cars have th epotential for dual classification but VERY few will get status.
The Z3 will include both vert and coupe.
robits325is
Member
The E-36 328i sedan ended production in 1998 The 328is coupe ended in 1999.
The E-46 328i was a 1999 or 2000 model year car. The E-46 328ci was released in 2000 and was replaced in 2001 by a 330ci.
The ITR list includes 96-99 328i.
and 00-04 330i
Maybe someone needs to clarify.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Rob,
What change would make other than the addition of the 2000 E46 328Ci and the 1999 to 2000 E46 328i which I am working on now?
ITS325,
The 'business case' surrounding the addition of ITR has been documented here and in Fast Track. As usual, people take posts from those who don't sign their name very lightly.
What change would make other than the addition of the 2000 E46 328Ci and the 1999 to 2000 E46 328i which I am working on now?
ITS325,
The 'business case' surrounding the addition of ITR has been documented here and in Fast Track. As usual, people take posts from those who don't sign their name very lightly.
i don't know maybe because many folks enjoy the IT race philosophy.... and also enjoy going a bit faster than the current IT classes. Instead of cramming more cars into ITS, with more restrictions for specific car models, to the point that it will be called Improved World Challenge.... there is evidence to sutain the need for a new IT class. So what if there are three guys racing in that class for a year... this is NOT nascar where you actually have to cut a field down... sooner or later it will fall into place... Change is inevitable... consider that this is for the better...
and embrace it!
If ur E36 is not competitive in ITS... tough... maybe u'll have luck in ITR.... SCCA makes no guarantees on competitiveness... and being a BMW racer you should know that(read the fast track of how many people want adjustments made to BMW) and opening a class like ITR confirms the philosophy to provide you with racing room... i learned that the hard way with my ITA car, not competitive at all... so just get ready to race no matter what if you find urself midpack with ITS cars even though u are in ITR well then you'll be racing with people you already know...
just my .02cents
Mike
and embrace it!
If ur E36 is not competitive in ITS... tough... maybe u'll have luck in ITR.... SCCA makes no guarantees on competitiveness... and being a BMW racer you should know that(read the fast track of how many people want adjustments made to BMW) and opening a class like ITR confirms the philosophy to provide you with racing room... i learned that the hard way with my ITA car, not competitive at all... so just get ready to race no matter what if you find urself midpack with ITS cars even though u are in ITR well then you'll be racing with people you already know...
just my .02cents
Mike
JeffYoung
New member
ITS325 -- you could start by actually reading what was written in Fastrack.
But I'll say it again here for your benefit.
IT is aging. Right now, there is simply no place to classify cars with more than 190 stock crank horsepower. Take a look around you -- how many cars in the last 15 years had less than that? Not many, and certainly not many sports or sporty cars.
A class above ITS is a necessity for the continued health and growth of IT. For years, people have asked to classify 3.0 BMWs, the E30 M3, the Z32 300ZX, the Supra and countless other cars. They have been told that those cars have too much potential for ITS, and the CRB was right in making that call.
ITR opens the door to the wide variety of cars from the last 15 years that have 190+ stock hp and which have no place in IT to run. Preludes, RSXs, Maximas, A4s, 3.0 BMWs, etc. Within a year, it will probably also include V8 pony cars to give SCCA members an "entry level" V8 class. Take a look at the list yourself. Is it a listing of "misfit toys?"
You really need to do some reading and thinking before posting stuff like you have.
I suspect that ITR will start slowly, populated primarily by 325is, Integras, Preludes, and a few otehrs that are already built. But in a couple of years, I think it will be the dominate IT class.
The buzz I've seen in the paddock this year about ITR has been fantastic.
So, again, not sure where you are coming from at all.
But I'll say it again here for your benefit.
IT is aging. Right now, there is simply no place to classify cars with more than 190 stock crank horsepower. Take a look around you -- how many cars in the last 15 years had less than that? Not many, and certainly not many sports or sporty cars.
A class above ITS is a necessity for the continued health and growth of IT. For years, people have asked to classify 3.0 BMWs, the E30 M3, the Z32 300ZX, the Supra and countless other cars. They have been told that those cars have too much potential for ITS, and the CRB was right in making that call.
ITR opens the door to the wide variety of cars from the last 15 years that have 190+ stock hp and which have no place in IT to run. Preludes, RSXs, Maximas, A4s, 3.0 BMWs, etc. Within a year, it will probably also include V8 pony cars to give SCCA members an "entry level" V8 class. Take a look at the list yourself. Is it a listing of "misfit toys?"
You really need to do some reading and thinking before posting stuff like you have.
I suspect that ITR will start slowly, populated primarily by 325is, Integras, Preludes, and a few otehrs that are already built. But in a couple of years, I think it will be the dominate IT class.
The buzz I've seen in the paddock this year about ITR has been fantastic.
So, again, not sure where you are coming from at all.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I'm following Kirks advice...he's rarely wrong...(Don't feed the trolls) and keep my mouth shut for once, LOL....
all the wings, big chrome wheels and painted brembo stuff kinda stands out! 
mlytle
New member
and what "level of hp" are you refering too? bmw stock class can't do anything to engine or suspension, so no useful comparison there. prepared allows some internal engine changes which it doesn't, so that level of hp isn't a good comparison either. a prepared version of the 2.5l puts about 20hp to the ground more than an IT version. extrapolate at will for a 2.8l.There's a good reason to compaire that's to eliminate the unknown factor, the fact that no 2.8l has been prepared for IT, no Z3 has had to compete with this level of hp and torque. What better way to see what works and get a ball park than to compaire the known (e-36 325) with the unknown? Who cares if the prep rules are different?? The over all effect should be the same. I suspect that given the dirth of Z3's competing in either J-Stock or J-Prepared indicate that the 328 in either the e-36 or e-46 versions is a much more potent chassis/engine combination. However, say that 2800lbs, is still too much and my car's never competitve at that weight. Say I can't get out of the way of the ITS field fast enough, what then?? Do I get someone else to confirm that I give up x.xx seconds per lap, what's my options then??
[/b]
the dirth of 2.8l's in bmwcca is temporary. ya can't change the ecu out to a motec in bmwcca, so the 2.8's are stuck with the odbii challenge. the tuners are figuring out...the 2.8's are filling in..both z3 and 328 form.
everybody should care the prep rules are different....apples to apples is what we are looking to make decisions on.
good data rob.
the e36 and e46 328's are different cars and need different classification lines and weights
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Here is what I have now. Anything missing?
BMW 325i/is (92-95)
BMW E36 328i/328is (96-98)
BMW E46 328ci (00)
BMW E46 328i (99-00)
BMW 330i (00-02)
BMW 635 (83-84)
BMW M3 (88-91)
BMW Z3 2.8 (97-00) Coupe or roadster
BMW Z3 3.0 (01) Coupe or roadster
What weight differnce would you recommend for E36 328 and E46 328? The same 50lbs that we used for Z3 to E36 difference? So, given the same engine, the Z3 would be 50lbs lighter than the E36 and the E36 would be 50lbs lighter than the E46...what sounds right to you BMW guys?
mlytle
New member
will have to do some checking. the e46 328 uses the same bigger brakes that the e46 330 does ...i think,so the difference could be a bit more than just 50lbs. i know the e36 325 and e46 323/325 share brake parts. the e46 chassis is considerably stiffer than the e36 (before roll cage..), the rear suspension is slightly different and the body style has a different cd. sounds like the discussion we just had with the z3..sort of...
i'll try to investigate and get back.
bmw unfortunately has quite a quagmire of 3 series model variations between 96 and 02. there was also an e36 323 for 1998-9 and of course the e46 323 through 2001 and the e46 325 in 2002. the 323's used an odbii version of the 2.5l. suggest we don't try to class too many of the variations right off the bat. one of them is already classed in its.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Then an additional listing would be:
BMW E46 325i/ci coupe (02)
In total:
BMW 325i/is (92-95)
BMW E36 328i/328is (96-98)
BMW E46 325i/ci coupe (02)
BMW E46 328ci (00)
BMW E46 328i (99-00)
BMW 330i (00-02)
BMW 635 (83-84)
BMW M3 (88-91)
BMW Z3 2.8 (97-00) Coupe or roadster
BMW Z3 3.0 (01) Coupe or roadster
BMW E46 325i/ci coupe (02)
In total:
BMW 325i/is (92-95)
BMW E36 328i/328is (96-98)
BMW E46 325i/ci coupe (02)
BMW E46 328ci (00)
BMW E46 328i (99-00)
BMW 330i (00-02)
BMW 635 (83-84)
BMW M3 (88-91)
BMW Z3 2.8 (97-00) Coupe or roadster
BMW Z3 3.0 (01) Coupe or roadster
robits325is
Member
I bolded the changes.
325ci was released in 2001. Feels like we are playing a BMW model trivia.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
BMW 325i/is (92-95)
BMW E36 328i/328is (96-99)
BMW E46 325i/ci coupe (01-02)
BMW E46 328ci (00)
BMW E46 328i (99-00)
BMW 330i (01-02)
BMW 635 (83-84)
BMW M3 (88-91)
BMW Z3 2.8 (97-00) Coupe or roadster
BMW Z3 3.0 (01) Coupe or roadster
Sooo many models! Different chassis in the same year!!! Sweet jesus!
BMW E36 328i/328is (96-99)
BMW E46 325i/ci coupe (01-02)
BMW E46 328ci (00)
BMW E46 328i (99-00)
BMW 330i (01-02)
BMW 635 (83-84)
BMW M3 (88-91)
BMW Z3 2.8 (97-00) Coupe or roadster
BMW Z3 3.0 (01) Coupe or roadster
Sooo many models! Different chassis in the same year!!! Sweet jesus!
Z3_GoCar
New member
I would argue for a roughly linear interpolation, in reality Prepared is probably into the point of diminishing returns with limits to stock intake and exhaust manifolds. In reality, if we use both the Stock and Prepared data, bracket the IT data in the middle, we've got a trend for the m-52 2.5 to follow, with one unknown point, how a 2.8l will respond to IT prep. Sound like a plan?? Good! Now all we need is good accurate data on how the cars respond. I wonder where we can find that?? I can plot it in excel if you like.
Second is how the chassis respond to being prepared, same method as with the power plant, only this is a little more subjective and the data harder to come by(as if we have a non-subjective way of measuring chassis responce) Actually, from the world of aircraft dynamics and controls there is (if my memory serves the Cooper-Harding scale) a method of ranking stability and control. Sounds like a good basis for a formula SAE paper. This will also help take out the subjective nature of the adders as they are currently applied. This could be broken down into two parts, the go part (50% of the total) and the stop/handeling part( also 50
%)... I'll get back with some numbers.
James
James
Z3_GoCar
New member
will have to do some checking. the e46 328 uses the same bigger brakes that the e46 330 does ...i think,so the difference could be a bit more than just 50lbs. i know the e36 325 and e46 323/325 share brake parts. the e46 chassis is considerably stiffer than the e36 (before roll cage..), the rear suspension is slightly different and the body style has a different cd. sounds like the discussion we just had with the z3..sort of...
i'll try to investigate and get back.
bmw unfortunately has quite a quagmire of 3 series model variations between 96 and 02. there was also an e36 323 for 1998-9 and of course the e46 323 through 2001 and the e46 325 in 2002. the 323's used an odbii version of the 2.5l. suggest we don't try to class too many of the variations right off the bat. one of them is already classed in its.
[/b]
As a side note all the six cylinder Z3's use the brakes for the e-36 328 and don't have the upsized brakes of the e-46 328/330. So the weight increase shouldn't follow the e-46 330 in case you were wondering.
Also, don't forget that classing any 98 with a 99 or 00 results in the fact that intake variable cam control can be swapped with both cams being controlable, and a different intake manifold. Just so you know.
