Rule change - 15" wheel allowance?

Guys - Just to clarify - I want to make sure that the way the rule is written it will allow cars with a 13" wheel to upgrade to a 14" wheel. This is really important because all the ITB+C people stuck with 13" wheels will find 14x6 wheels VERY easy to find, but may not be able to locate 15x6" wheels easily.

Thanks!
Jake
 
I think it should be based on wheel width ,per class!! You want to run 17's go ahead...but stay within your width for your class you want to run 14s or 13s go ahead!! I've been noticing 15s are starting to become more diffucult to find...IMHO

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mike g.
 
Originally posted by Jake:
Guys - Just to clarify - I want to make sure that the way the rule is written it will allow cars with a 13" wheel to upgrade to a 14" wheel.
Click to expand...

The wording says "up to 15"... so 13" would be able to legally run 14" or 15"...


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
Greg,

I forgot to add this. Does your Nissan have the same bolt pattern as a 240z? If it does and z-cars go to 15's (I think they run 15's in e-prod) you may have a cheap source for some nice panasports ultra-lites or other wheels. 240's have a 4 by 4 1/2 like an MGB or old six cylinder Mustangs. I don't recall the offset, I'd have to check that.

You're right about the weight disadvantage.

Tom
(still waiting for someone to point out where I'm wrong so I can buy that enclosed trailer instead)
 
This may be silly, but will opening the wheel allowance make it harder to get tires for those of us who still want to run 13" wheels? One of the main purposes of this rule (as I understand it) is to make it easier for people using 13" or 14" wheels. I'll definately admit it, I had a heck of a time locating decent 13" rims. For that matter, I couldn't even get steel 13" rims for my FWD car. I happen to get lucky with some help and find some decent rims.

I just wonder if this will almost back fire a bit. Now people are not as likely to hunt for the 13" rims, therefore demand for 13" tires decreases. It inturn hurts those of us who already have 13" wheels. Currently 14" wheels are plentiful, so there isn't a concern there.

Just a thought on the drive home...

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
The catalyst for this, way back when, was the rarity of 14x7 wheels - primarily for all of those FWD ITS/ITA cars out there.

K
 
Originally posted by gran racing:
This may be silly, but will opening the wheel allowance make it harder to get tires for those of us who still want to run 13" wheels?
Click to expand...

I can assure you that there isn't likely to be any issue brought up here that hasn't already been discussed in GREAT DEPTH by the ITAC, concerning this issue... In fact, much of our discussion stemmed from discussions we've had here with you all!
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Availability was raised as a concern, and as I recall, the manufactures told us that they have no intention of stopping the manufacturing of 13"/14" tires as long as there is a need.

That being said, we are all already seeing the writing on the wall as far as these sizes go, with fewer options being offered in both rims and tires in this range as new models hit the market.

This conversation ends up being a chicken or the egg deal of sorts... Are we causing the demise of the smaller sizes, or is the demise of the smaller sizes causing us to change?? I think either way you look at it, the change in inevitable, and we should update the class at a reasonable point to aviod having to make reactionary decisions that aren't well thought out...

From what I've heard from this board, and at the track, there is a vast majority of you out there that would welcome this change, and we have gone forward with the recommendation based on that perception, as well as carefully considering the supply and demand issues involved.

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited July 19, 2004).]
 
Kirk - 13x6 wheels are getting nearly as rare and expensive as 14x7.

Dave - not sure I follow. In your example you need to get 13x6 wheels. If demand for these go down - they'll get easier for people like me and you to get these used on eBay as others as other move to 14x6 and 15x6 wheels. As for new - the only manufactuers build these custom to order at great expense - those choices will still most likely be around.

This in all is a WIN-WIN for everybody. Instead of getting junky eBay 13x6 wheels - you can get a new set of 14x6 wheels from the local pep boys for under $200/set!
 
Not talking about the wheels. Talking about the tires. For example, Hoosier and the new compound. This past year I didn't care because I was uncompetitive in ITA. BUT if I were in ITB I'd certainly care more. Just a matter of supply and demand. If demand goes down, what incentive is there for Hoosier (or any other co.) to bring 13" tires to the market place?

Yeah, I know. It is legal to change gearing but it is also very, very expensive. Just like it is legal to use new tires after every race.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
HEY! Junky 13 x 6 wheels? But you found them for me...Besides they are VW wheels and kinda blue. That's gotta be good for .5 seconds in B, right?

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
<--- Duh! Sorry for not reading your post completely. I still think support for 13" and 14" tires will stay, at least with the Hoosiers - just like you said - some people will choose to use 'em.
 
Is availability really an issue? I run 13s in ITS, and had no trouble getting 13X7 Panasports at about $150 a piece. Expensive, but are they that much more than other rims? Paying $110 or so for Miata rims so I don't think so, in the grand scheme of things. Besides, if I wanted to, I can always get a set of stock rims off ebay for a couple hundred bucks. They are 5.5 wide and 205s fit on them just fine.

Since I am convinced that it is ITA/IT7 RX7s, and the sheer numbers of them, that drives Hoosier to release its best tires in 13s and come up with crazy sizes like the 225/50/13 etc., if you allow the ITA7/IT7 cars to move to 14 and 15", then the 13" tire supply will dry up. Everyone is going to go with bigger rims -- most people think, for whatever reason, that they are "better."

I know the intent here is good, but I just have a bad feeling about this change. I don't see any problem in getting 13X7 and 14X7 wheels if you look, although they are becoming sort of racer-specific but I'm not sure what is really wrong with that.

Jeff
 
Originally posted by Banzai240:
This conversation ends up being a chicken or the egg deal of sorts... Are we causing the demise of the smaller sizes, or is the demise of the smaller sizes causing us to change?? I think either way you look at it, the change in inevitable, and we should update the class at a reasonable point to aviod having to make reactionary decisions that aren't well thought out...
Click to expand...

Indeed!

And let me point out that the proposed rule change will give you choices where today you have none.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by JeffYoung:
had no trouble getting 13X7 Panasports at about $150 a piece. Expensive [...] Since I am convinced that it is ITA/IT7 RX7s, and the sheer numbers of them, that drives Hoosier to release its best tires in 13s and come up with crazy sizes like the 225/50/13 etc., if you allow the ITA7/IT7 cars to move to 14 and 15", then the 13" tire supply will dry up.
Click to expand...

As someone on 13" tires in an ITA/IT7 RX-7, I won't be going to larger wheels until I can't get tires. Why should I? I've got three sets of 13" rims that work just fine and are light, too. The $150 each for Panasports is very little different than I'd pay for Kosei K-1s or something from Team Dynamics or Diamond or whoever. I'm sure cheaper wheels are out there, but I want a proven track record before I put my life in the hands of a tire or wheel manufacturer, just like any other part of my car.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing
 
I agree Doug, but I think a lot of people out there will go for the bigger wheels because...they are bigger. I can tell you now that when I was buidling the car I thought bigger wheels were necessarily better -- now I understand they are really just cheap gearing and that what matters is width.

I don't care what they allow so long as Hoosier continues to supply the best tires in 13X7 sizes.
 
ok a few random thoughts that i feel need to be part of the discussion.

choice is good, but if the new choice is faster (and i don't know if this one is) serious drivers will have to buy the faster choice.

the reason for considering this change is valid. if parts are not available at a reasonable price, such as 14 x7 wheels, our rules should make racing easier.

the one thing that i have not heard discussed is struts. my ita rx7 runs modified struts that corrects the lower control arm geometry. i am sure other makes do this as well. think of it as a drop spindle. the amout that i can add to the bottom of the stut is limited by interference with the wheel. if i was allowed to run 15" wheels instead of 13"s i could gain another inch of geometry correction. so it is possible that this change would have the uninteded consequence of makeing me buy new struts as well in order to optimize my set up.

dick patullo
 
The suspension question is a good one, Dick. It seems like overall diameter will be the real issue but it's worth wondering about.

K
 
Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
Greg,

I forgot to add this. Does your Nissan have the same bolt pattern as a 240z?
Click to expand...

I'll answer this. The NX 2000 and Sentra SE-R are both FWD and have a 4/100 bolt pattern. The 240 is RWD which has different offsets and has a 4/114 bolt pattern.



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Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot
 
The September Fastrack is out and it has wording about allowing cars with 13" and 14" wheels to run up to 15" wheels starting next year.


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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA
 
I could be wrong but it seems more that just cheap gearing. Because of the limited allowable gearing for any car per the spec line, it possibly increases the options since those "gear" combos weren't legal or available.

Dick worded it much better than I. If it is a faster option, and that is an unknown, then it is something that people may eventually change to, some quicker than others based on budget, driving style and a stopwatch.

Like Greg said, "I'm not trying to start a pissin' contest", it just seems that it is a performance related enhancement.

And at least from what I read, tire width can increase too.
Tom
 
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