Greg, as a tech inspector, let me ask you a few questions. Not looking for a formal opinon of course, just want to bounce some ideas off of you.
Seat in my car is an FIA seat (Sparco) with a bottom mount ONLY.
Been looking for another seat and settled on the Sparco PRO 2000, which is also FIA homologated and also bottom mount.
Now, as I read the above rule, the seat must meat the standard and be mounted the same way as set forth in the standard.
I've read the standards and they are not entirely clear on this. They seem to suggest only testing with seat brackets (which I don't want to use) but I don't believe that Sparco could have gotten the FIA sticker for the seat if the bottom mounts hadn't be tested as well.
Thoughts?
By the way, I fully agree with you on those spears in the back of seats. Composite seats aren't designed for that.
Simon, what I've read on FIA v. non-FIA is that FIA won't give approval to an alum seat like a Kirkey. The FIA thinking is that an aluminum seat is not as safe for a variety of reasons.
US thinking seems to be different; Nascar boys have been using versions of that seat, with many improvements, for years.
I've raced cars with Kirkeys and things feel fine, but after reading the standards and the testing required to get an FIA cert I would not feel comfortable owning a seat that was not so tested.
The idea that a back brace is a sufficient replacmeent for that esting is a bit spooky to me.
It's only a matter of time before one of these seat back braces is directly responsible for someone being crippled or killed.
FIA seats - you know, ones that are designed specifically for the purpose and tested to destruction? - don't use seat back braces. And there's a reason for that.
And we're worried about head and neck braces... <rolleyes>
I would never get into a car with one of those spears pointed at my back - that just scares the hell out of me. But I believe it is possible to design a brace that won't hurt you, and still accomplishes the purpose. The one in my car is made from a piece of 1-1/4" flat steel, bent into sort of a U shape (actually more like 5 sides of an octagon), with the ends mounted to tabs on the cross bar that are about the seat-width apart. I haven't tested it (don't really plan to), but the idea is that the brace will deform enough in an impact that it will both prevent injury (by allowing some movement) and help dissipate some of the energy of the impact. Needless to say it's a one-shot deal.
FIA publishes their list of approved seats, along with what type of mount with which they were certified. Here's the 8855-1999 list, for example:...I don't believe that Sparco could have gotten the FIA sticker for the seat if the bottom mounts hadn't be tested as well.
So does a lifetime of living in a wheelchair and blowing through a tube to move around.Most FIA seats cost a lot more than a non FIA seat.
It's not just the fact that many poorly-designed braces become spears upon impact, it's also due to the fact that any properly-designed seat has "give" - both laterally and longitudinally - to absorb a lot of the shock. If you get hit and the seat don't give, guess where all the shock is going to...? Yep: you.What exactly are these spear braces you all speak of?
FIA publishes their list of approved seats, along with what type of mount with which they were certified. Here's the 8855-1999 list, for example:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/D7050711553B12ADC12575F60035B089//L12_Approved_seats.pdf
If yours is on that list (and it should be) and it says both "lateral" and "lower", you can use either.
So does a lifetime of living in a wheelchair and blowing through a tube to move around.
It's not just the fact that many poorly-designed braces become spears upon impact, it's also due to the fact that any properly-designed seat has "give" - both laterally and longitudinally - to absorb a lot of the shock. If you get hit and the seat don't give, guess where all the shock is going to...? Yep: you.
Seat back braces are nothing but a very bad Band-Aid to accommodate poorly-designed seats that have illustrated a tendency to fail. In fact, they first came to the fore when we were still using factory seats in Showroom Stock cars, where the adjustable seat backs were breaking.
Use whatever seat you want - the "standards" required by SCCA are laughable - but don't think that a seat back brace is anywhere NEAR sufficient to give you a level of safety comparable to a proper race seat. In fact, I suggest it probably worsens the situation.
GA
Then keep in mind the "intention" for seat back braces is to keep you safe and in place in case the seat back breaks/permanently deforms. Design it to spread the load across the back of the seat as much as possible (i.e., a plate, and use panhead bolts towards your back, not hex heads) and try to let it have some "give" (no real suggestions for that). - GAWell for the time being I don't have much of an option. lol
Jeff, you're welcome.
Then keep in mind the "intention" for seat back braces is to keep you safe and in place in case the seat back breaks/permanently deforms. Design it to spread the load across the back of the seat as much as possible (i.e., a plate, and use panhead bolts towards your back, not hex heads) and try to let it have some "give" (no real suggestions for that). - GA
And everyone owes a lot of gratitude to the CRB who DID NOT continue pushing STUPID and ILL CONCEIVED rules floated recently requiring a back brace on ANY seat, FIA or otherwise, unless it could be proven that the mounts used are the same PN as the mounts the seat was certified with, which is ONLY possible on seats conforming to FIA 8862-2009 (advanced racing seats) as listed on technical list #40. there's less than 20 of these. most FIA seats are homologated to 8855-1999, and listed on TL#12, specifying the TYPE of mounting used (lateral, lower) and nothing more.
in effect, it would have forced just about everyone to have back braces. if you think they are scary on a metal seat, try it on a composite, or worse, an entry level, steel-frame FIA seat with webbing through the back and seat floor.
a rare instane of safety rule restraint on behalf od the club. use FIA seats and avoid back braces for all of the good reasons above. even a well designed back brace is, to me, less desireable than a well designed and well mounted seat.