Self-policing +

Q

quadzjr

New member
So there has been a on going idea that they guys down in FL cheat their a$$ off. Now a lot of strides have been completed to correct that thinking but I think more has to be done. I know myself I know of illegal cars and due to the complexity of making a formal protest or in general like the guy that is offending I have done little to do any policing. The only time it came close to it was when I was beat out by a driver at Sebring. After the race I thought nothing of it, as getting passed in a straight was norm. Later I found that the driver had a JDM engine in his car. My crew and others in class went to talk to this person and the offender got very defensive and aggressive. He kept his points and his position but I never raced against him again. Later I saw he built an ITA car that rolled up to qualifying had about 10 things visually illegal with it. On grid for qualifying I just mentioned it to a few ITA guys there to bring it to their attention. I have not seen it since.

So my point of this is I am not a fan of hostility, but I am a fan of fair and clean competition. How would I implement or propose a blanket wide easy/cheap inspection. Inspection of the simple things like Cam lift and compression. Going on 6 years of racing in this series I have not once seen this whistler machine and have never seen valve lift checked in IT. I know this happens at the ARRC but a lot of the people down here do not run it.

So how do we get say the top 5 and whomever else that would like to join up for the next race at to get their CR and valve lift checked. After what Mike M. has said and others I think it would be good to do to flush out the illegal cars. I can see people that are illegal being highly against the idea. I also see people saying they do not want to pull the valve cover off their engine. My fear is that if a blanket protest initiated by me would result in a backlash of revenge (tearing the motor down to the crank just because before a race), obviously I would run my car as well, and I do no know what is involved with the whistler but I would be willing for inspection every race or random.

So how to accomplish this task? My assumption was all cars were pretty much legal up front but then realized that all of the cars sans 1 do not attend a race that your car actually gets inspected so what prevents them from another .5 CR? Or that cheater VW cam mike was talking about?
 
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Not much help in your area, but at the SWDIV Regional Championship race last weekend, they were playing with a whistler in impound. unfortunately it was reading low to cars with known values.

I offered to let them check my car (factory stock internals- never had head gasket off), but they never got to it.

Anyway, there are a few floating around..
 
Not a lot of time to respond in detail, but...

- Are you fairly certain there actually is an issue, or does it just appear that way?
- The change has to come as a change to the culture, and change that says "we do not tolerate cheating, it's not OK".
- That change to the culture likely has to come from targeted protests and teardowns. It's unlikely, unless you have a friend in Tech, that the region will take the initiative.

We had a perceived culture of cheating in New England a few years ago; guys were playing with the edges in engine builds. A few targeted tear-downs later, I think we have a strong culture here of "we don't tolerate that, don't even try".

- GA
 
It's always amusing to tow to Daytona and see what Florida has to offer. As a mostly outsider, I'd say:

1. Friendly, really cool bunch of racers. LOTS of IT cars. Daytona is awesome.

2. The fast guys in the classes I race with -- R/S/A/7 -- all seem legit and legal with some exceptions.

3. The cheats on one or two fast cars I saw were all aero related: shaved door handles, no wipers, stuff like that. Annoying stuff.

4. Then there is just some flat out blatant "I obviously didn't read the rules or obviously don't care about them" crap. The orange ITR 911 with the Lexan rear window with holes drilled in it. Last year, the ITS E36 Bmw (that was dog slow) with an unpainted carbon fiber trunk lid. And so on.

There definitely is a Mad Max mentality to what goes on down there, and some "run whtat you brung" stuff, but again, the fast S cars all looked and seemed legit to me. Racing was great, Sunday race with Marc Daa, Bill Quinn and Tim Jenurm was awesome.

Plus, 22 S cars!
 
JeffYoung said:
...Then there is just some flat out blatant "I obviously didn't read the rules or obviously don't care about them" crap...a Mad Max mentality to what goes on down there, and some "run whtat you brung" stuff...
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We handle those one-on-one, and "gently" nudge them over to IT Everything. They either soon get the word they need to meet the regs to play in IT outside ITE, or they start going mental and trying to modify the cars to go even faster...
 
In my experience, the best way to do this is to lead by example. We had a case of a car showing up and being VERY fast on the straights, delivering lap record times, yet being poorly driven overall. He would only show up every few years. When I saw him on an entry list, I did some research on the car, what it should be capable of, and what cheats would help it. Then I approached him before the first session for our group, complimented him on the build quality of the car and asked him if it was legal. I explained that our IT group enjoyed close, hard fought, but legal competition, and we expected anyone joining us to do the same. When he said of course its legal, I asked him about the specific parts that were most likely not correct. He stuck to his story. So I simply told him that if he took the track in Q1, I would write paper to check bore, stroke, crank part number, head porting and cam. His story changed to just needing a race to keep his license current, so I approached the officials about helping him move to another class that he was more correctly prepped for. He ended up running in STU for the weekend, and the message was clearly sent.

I did not want to be a jerk, or confrontational, or ruin someone's fun, but I figured that if I didn't do something I had no right to ask others to self police the class as well.

That one incident had a clear effect of solidifying the opinion of all our regulars to emphasize legal prep. It could have gone another way, and created a crap-storm, but letting it go would have reinforced the wrong kind of culture IMO.
 
The most effective way that I have seen was to announce in the flyer for the race, and in the supps that VC were going to be taken off and cams checked. And to bring the tools/people and parts to do this on SAT afternoon.
The valve covers did not come off ,but some of the cars slowed down.
Maybe put a short article in the CFR paper with your concerns, would be a smart start.
Throwing paper pisses people off. Having mam to man talks with maybe 1 beer( not 4) might be more tolerated . Most of these guys are pretty nice. but as the rules get let go , "everyone is doing it" comes into play.

FWIW I dont see a legal Toy running with a legal Mk 3 VW.
I have worked with both .
Be careful ,The 5-6 ITB cars that race in CFR might not race at all and then what do you have besides one trophy.

RE concerning visible issues like wiper blades. Some guys really dont know the rules. Tell them to put the wiper back on please.
How about the new Dodge 024 that had all of the car gutted etc. I talked to him for a few minutes, asked about the car, as it was really pretty just not legal. I mentioned that I ran Prod and did not know the current rules for IT, so I sicked Chip on the guy and he took his car and stayed home(I was pretty sure thatChip is more politically nicer than I) . The car was more of a Prod car . But pretty sure that we still lost him .
MM
 
I was specifically talking about ITB in general. I know and have talked plenty to the ITS guys and honestly it is what makes me want to build/buy an ITS car. I really enjoy racing the group that shows up to most SARRC races they guys are ran with at the SIC have been a blast to race against (even though one is blatant illegal and did affect the outcome of the race). It is the others that I see having poor exits out of corners, then have to lift to keep from rear ending people at the end of the straights like they are toying with them. It is easy to see when all you do is stare at the back of them lap after lap until they are out of sight.

I know there are cars that are not the same and have no chance that is all in classing and that is not something I can change. I do not expect legal for legal a MK3 VW to compete against my MR2.

What I would like to do is eliminate/reduce the cheating. I like the idea of a putting it in the Supps but not following through would be like crying wolf. I also do not want to eliminate my competition by pushing them out.. I want them legal. Mike and chip know more about what is going around in my area in the slower classes.

Though my sample size has not been that great, but every IT motor that I have torn down that was built by another builder was illegal in some way and one was a big named reputable shop, maybe owner asked them to do so? A few of the cheats would be tech shed legal-ish.. others would require tear down to find. Most of the issues I have found are in the cylinder head prep and valve train. I have found Illegal valve springs, cams, pistons, porting, you name it in the few that I have rebuilt from another builder. Personally, and it may not be good business but I will not build a cheater engine. If you want to cheat, you will have to swap over the illegal parts after delivery.

damn I get side tracked easy.. so anyways. I have suspicion that a few are illegal not all. But in lieu of singling out a few, I would like to change the culture and get all buy in.
 
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Greg Amy said:
We had a perceived culture of cheating in New England a few years ago; guys were playing with the edges in engine builds. A few targeted tear-downs later, I think we have a strong culture here of "we don't tolerate that, don't even try".

- GA
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Plus the time you donated with Nick on the voluntary compression check was cool too.
 
MOST of the problem in FL stems from the Miami area FARA racers who don't appear to even have a rulebook. outside of ITB, most of the cheaters are pretty obvious and usually not quick. the CFR ITB guys are largely legal - there's one VERY questionable car I know of. his crew and the guy who built/tuned his engine have both pretty much said directly that it's illegal. there was that D15B Vtec CRX that we had an issue with but we never saw him again. he did show up with a flared fender, CFRP hooded, slicks-having "ITS" integra the next year but haven't seen that again either. a couple of AE86's certainly sound like they have more than stock cams but again - until they are running in front of mid pack ITC cars I really don't care.

so I don't think the problem is systemic.

the dodge was a bunch of stupid stuff. a lot of the "racecars don't" (wipers)and "I don't think it's safe to keep that" (headlights) type crap. the motor looked OK and on track it certainly wasn't anything to worry about.

when you start a witch hunt you risk scaring off the racers. there's only 1-2 cars we're really worried about. we should just talk to THEM. having a pow-wow at events among all drivers of a certain class or category (ask Rick @ tech to impound all IT or ITB cars after the SAT race or qualifying, and start talking)is a good way to make it clear that what's going on is known, and to get a good vibe from the assembly that they don't care (i.e. it's going to stay that way) or the majority are tired of it too and want to see it stopped. that should send the message without ruffling too many feathers.

if you want to get into CR tests, Fred Clark should be able to supply the whistler and expertise to use it. most cars in ITB especially do not have top center pulgs though, so establishing actual bore and stroke will not be an option without pulling the head, at which point you don't need the whistler anyway. throwing correct by the book numbers at the machine should give you a good start, though. what event to use this at, though? I could see using it at a SARRC, especially a well attended and early-in-season one to set the tone, but not a CFR regional.
 
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Sorry - I don't think there's any easy, painless way to achieve the stated goals here without a huge commitment by regional powers-that-be. If you can get them to commit to ARRC-style post-race inspections, more power to you but I don't think that's likely. If you DO make noises about that kind of thing, you *must* follow through. (Think about that out-of-control kid at Walmart being told for the 10th time that he's being told the LAST TIME, dammit!!)

I'd simply hit the worst offenders and work back through the list until you get to a level that you're collectively comfy with.

Having dealt with Scott Hileman (aka the Fastest MkI GTI in the World) at the 2011 IT Fest (including giving his engine a good look-see post-race), I let him know that I planned on coming back in 2012 and "looked forward to racing him in legal cars." I emailed him a couple months before the event and let him know that I was prepared to file a protest and again encouraged him to show up with the right stuff. (I got no response.)

After first practice, I took the paperwork I'd prepared in advance (including pictures of what a STOCK MkI GTI throttle body looks like, vs. the Audi unit he had) to try to talk with him in person. I got told to "fuck off," that he was just trying to have fun with his family. I explained that I was sorry he felt that way, that the event (and the ITNT points) was kind of a serious thing, and that I'd be protesting him.

Which I did.

He got bounced out of the points but was allowed to run, on a plea deal after admitting guilt to the tech guy for the obvious stuff that didn't require a teardown. I didn't have any additional trouble with him, although I did put an extra GoPro in the car so I had video front and back - just in case. :)

Now, I have zero idea if he came back this year legal. I would hope so. I wish it could have been handled amicably but it couldn't. I got to be the jerk but that's kind of how the process is supposed to work. To their FULL credit, the MO stewards handled the process WAY better than either of the previous protests I was involved in, back in the day.

Short answer: Use the system.

K
 
Kirk, as I am not familiar with the other marques as much and an obvious (well I would assume it would be) different TB on the car would be an easy call as far as protesting goes. What would you have done if it was an internal modification? Just assume he was that good? I know if I was looking at the golf you were talking about.. I would not know about the TB. Example, Chip mentioned another toyota product with good money was invested, accidently told me that he did evertying including the cams, and then we he drives or at idle it does not sound right. It could be a Vac leak for all I know.. but I am leaning towards not.

I do not have money or time to solely single out all the cheaters so the process does not work in this situation really as I would like to not just focus on what is infront of me, but behind as well.

Others, I was thinking the same. I would like to do it early.. Maybe talk to the group at the turkey trots and propose an idea of doing "something?". This way they have all winter before cabin fever to make it right if they are not legal. So it should lessend the blow. It has to be at a large race with high attendance to get it out to the most people. I do not want to throw paper, but if we get the majority of people on board as and I don't see why they wouldn't if they are majority legal.

Not even sure how the whistler works so unfamiliar on that point. The simple fact that it is being used might get people to change their game.

I do not want to push people out, but I also do not want to race against cheaters. It is assumed that the majority of cheating goes on in teh mid and back part of the track, and yet they do not affect my race personally, I still think they should be legal. If any car is illegal I feel any person they beat got robbed.

What I need to figure out and this is where I need the groups here help.. is what is the process to accomplish the goal that I work to propose to the ITB group. If it works heck, maybe it can be spread to other groups. They do a similiar thing at roundy round tracks all the time. It is just part of the culture to inspect after the race. We have alot of cars and alot of classes so it is not as feesible, but something can be done.
 
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Many know the story, but opposite experience here.

First, agree with Kirk: no clear and easy answer. It all depends on the stewards, the racer, his personality, etc.

Our experience. We had a guy who had been an obvious cheater in IT7 (drilled rear bumper discovered when the cover was knocked off, switch on the gearshift to blip the thottle since he couldn't heel and toe, etc.) move to ITS. First season he was slow,second year he built a motor off season and showed up at VIR and was five seconds faster.

After several weekends of all of us running close enough to him to suspect the motor (an ITS RX7) was not kosher, and after consulting some Mazda gurus, we showed up at our Memorial DAy event ready to file paper and with a promise the tear down could be down that evening in the Tech Shed for $1500 so that he could race the next day if legal.

We had a lng debate about talking to him first and decided not to . Probably a mistake, not sure. I suspect he ould have changed the motor out and used the illegal one more judiciously but who knows.

We protest. And it's not just one ITS driver, it's five of us. Stewards try to talk us out of doing so. Continually raise the bond until it's like $3k or something (saying they had consulted with Roger Mandeville who was at the track). Wanted to allow the engine builder (I keed you not) to take the car and do the tear down over a couple of week period. And so on, and so on.

Driver was reasonably polite at first and then (by his own admission) tried to take me out in the race becauase he was "mad" and then, after spinning in his attempt to do so, would proceed slowly around the track, wait for each of the protestors to come along, and then follow us on our bumpers for a few laps. Control let him do that.

IN the end, after lots of discussions with us, the stewards and the driver, and the driver claiming he didn't want the motor torn down because it may not be built back the same (yep), we agreed he would waive all SARRC points or races run that year, and run the next day in STL.

So still don't know if the car was legal.

That said, the car has never been as fast in a straight line and I think we made a point.

But would I do it again? Probably not. It ruined that weekend and the rest of the year with angst, and set bad precedent when we started to have issues with the same driver causing a lot of wecks.

Bottom line: I have no good answer. I think contributing stories helps, but that is all I can do.

Some of the obvious cars in Florida? Yeah, I'd tell them they were illegal, although like KVS told me about teh ITR Porsche with the lexan: he just didn't care enough to protest ifthe guy was going to run 15 seconds a lap slower, which he did.

It becomes a much harder question when it is a competitive car. I think talking to the driver is probably the best approach if I had a do over, but unfortunately my experience with protests is I would think long and hard about doing one again.
 
Chip42 said:
a couple of AE86's certainly sound like they have more than stock cams but again - until they are running in front of mid pack ITC cars I really don't care.


So a car can be illegal as long as it doesn't run up front? It sounds as if you don't care about the "mid pack guys". Rules are rules and should be the same for Everyone competing front to back. Please clarify your statement.
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Starting with a discussion is definitely an important element, even though the response might be the one that Kirk received. I also had a case of a mk3 VW racer that had an alternate radiator mounted in a different plane than stock, and a smaller battery. I politely mentioned that I didn't think he fit the rules, he said he would check it out, and the next race weekend his stuff was right. We were friends before and after, so that made a difference, but even if I didn't know a guy, I would politely tip my hand before throwing paper - though always being prepared with knowledge, and teardown bond to follow through if it fails.
 
Slopok, I *AM* a midpack guy. and I care - more than you could imagine. but if a cheater is running around in the back somewhere it's going to be harder to focus attention, energy, and money (should an official protest come to pass) in getting him fixed. being midpack, a lot of these guys see nothing wrong with what they are doing. they know they are cheating and even THAT isn't getting them the ashtray so obviously (to them) EVERYONE is cheating OR it simply doesn't matter because they aren't disrupting the championship.

it's a really difficult mentality to deal with, and challenging them enough can lead to chasing them away, even if all you were trying to do was get them to stay, but become legal, or even to change classes to something that their car would be legal in as is. if they race clean and safe and show up and pay entry fees while cheating and NOT disrupting the points for the legal, fast guys, that's a loss for the club. so a lot of people are going to resist the urge to "do anything" about it. thus "I really don't care" if they aren't causing a problem.
 
JeffYoung said:
Many know the story, but opposite experience here.

...

we showed up at our Memorial DAy event ready to file paper and with a promise the tear down could be down that evening in the Tech Shed for $1500 so that he could race the next day if legal.

We protest... Stewards try to talk us out of doing so. Continually raise the bond until it's like $3k or something. Wanted to allow the engine builder (I keed you not) to take the car and do the tear down over a couple of week period. And so on, and so on.

Driver was reasonably polite at first and then (by his own admission) tried to take me out in the race becauase he was "mad" and then, after spinning in his attempt to do so, would proceed slowly around the track, wait for each of the protestors to come along, and then follow us on our bumpers for a few laps. Control let him do that.

...

It becomes a much harder question when it is a competitive car. I think talking to the driver is probably the best approach if I had a do over, but unfortunately my experience with protests is I would think long and hard about doing one again.
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I was there that weekend and was paddocked close to you Kirk and Steve E. I could not beleive what was going on. What you describe is exactly what I want to avoid and infact your story and others has kept me from doing so (Filing protest).
 
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quadzjr said:
I was there that weekend and was paddocked close to you Kirk and Steve E. I could not beleive what was going on. What you describe is exactly what I want to avoid and infact your story and others has kept me from doing so (Filing protest).
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I wish I could tell you different, but as one of the drivers involved in that protest I have to say my experience deters me from considering a protest in the future. That was the worst racing weekends I've ever had and I'm sure that statement goes for anyone who was involved, protester or protestee. Racing sure ceased to be fun for those few days.

If a situation like that presented itself in the future I believe I would attempt to handle it at the racer to racer level as opposed to using official channels. I felt like too many barriers were erected at the official level, with some unreasonable conditions and possible outcomes, that generated a scenario with a high probability for an ambiguous result. And it created a lot of bad blood between individuals that might could have been avoided.

Looking at it from the other side, if I were to be protested I’d lobby for a person to person solution. I would offer that we look at heads, cams, part numbers, or whatever it is they want to see instead of doing a full on SCCA protest. If something is wrong I'd work to get it fixed, and hopefully satisfy their inquiry while maintaining a friendly atmosphere. After all, we go to the track to race and hang out with people who are like-minded individuals so we should all get along fine.

But what happens if you don’t know the people or they are out of region or new? I don’t think I’d approach it any differently. New folks would certainly be the easiest situation since they typically like to absorb knowledge and learning to do things right upfront is general welcomed. Talk with them like Kirk suggests, see if some common ground can be found, and hash it out. If that didn't work out, maybe discuss with other in-class racers and try a second time.

But if you decide to go with a protest brace yourself for what could come down the pipe. At a recent protest bird shooting, name calling, and angry family members/crew have been observed, so it’s proof positive not everyone can conduct themselves in a sportsmanship like manner. A shame really, since racing is a fun hobby, and if you're not in it for that you should be racing somewhere else.
 
I had a weekend at Roebling where Kent Thompson and I got together and asked that all the BMW's be checked for restrictor plates. This was in the days before the SIR because we were being told they were not really that fast and that most were just not running them. We were screaming at the CRB to get off their butts and fix the problem they created. To not single anyone out we did all of them. I had a driver come up very hurt we would ever think he was cheating and I realized you never do a blanket protest. Lesson #1

Involved in protest of Chet Whittel at CMP in the Orange BMW after seeing 20 car lengths pulled on us at VIR. Made a call to chief of tech and had everything brought by them to track to tear it down next race. Head, cams, rods,everything. Tech had them on the table Friday night and the car never came out of the trailer. Protested anyway because it was registered and the bond went way above what I had brought that was reasonable. Had to let it drop.

Involved in the protest Jeff mentioned of the RX7 and would have paid the entire bond to see the inside of that rocket. Yes, it was not fun, but it was a car winning races that I believe 100% was illegal. Future performance backs that up.

Protests suck, period.

Either way you go remember these are friends in most cases you are running against and many do not have the same ambitions you do. They sometimes ignore the rules and just want to race. No big deal, but pick a catch all class if you do not want to be legal and have at it. Picking the entire class and insinuating they are cheating is a bad way to start.

If you are protested they have to post bond to put you back together. Do like I do and invite them to watch.
 
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