Self-policing +

Good topic. Always valid in motorsports.

There is another way to police legality of cars in the club. Instead of "looking" for illegal cars, which is very difficult, I would not allow them to become illegal in the first place. This is how I would do this in my club:

When your car is teched for the first time, or when you're the new owner of the car you get a list of things you must check for legality in a given class. Each item on the list will have a fine fee associated. You check your car and sign the list. In case you get caught the first time you pay the fee, plus all your points are removed. Car held as a bond until you pay the fee.

On the second count your car is taken away and auctioned off. Proceeds from the auction are divided and send back to the participates of that race as refund money, or credit towards next race.

Problem solved. There would be less cheating.

Also, it would help to capture sector times in order to filter cars (possible candidates for impound) that are going faster than physically possible.
 
Please expand on the two highlighted items paying particular attention to time, staffing and financial resource requirements.

awegrzyn said:
Good topic. Always valid in motorsports.

There is another way to police legality of cars in the club. Instead of "looking" for illegal cars, which is very difficult, I would not allow them to become illegal in the first place. This is how I would do this in my club:

When your car is teched for the first time, or when you're the new owner of the car you get a list of things you must check for legality in a given class. Each item on the list will have a fine fee associated. You check your car and sign the list. In case you get caught the first time you pay the fee, plus all your points are removed. Car held as a bond until you pay the fee.

On the second count your car is taken away and auctioned off. Proceeds from the auction are divided and send back to the participates of that race as refund money, or credit towards next race.

Problem solved. There would be less cheating.

Also, it would help to capture sector times in order to filter cars (possible candidates for impound) that are going faster than physically possible.
Click to expand...
 
awegrzyn said:
Good topic. Always valid in motorsports.

There is another way to police legality of cars in the club. Instead of "looking" for illegal cars, which is very difficult, I would not allow them to become illegal in the first place. This is how I would do this in my club:

When your car is teched for the first time, or when you're the new owner of the car you get a list of things you must check for legality in a given class. Each item on the list will have a fine fee associated. You check your car and sign the list. In case you get caught the first time you pay the fee, plus all your points are removed. Car held as a bond until you pay the fee.

On the second count your car is taken away and auctioned off. Proceeds from the auction are divided and send back to the participates of that race as refund money, or credit towards next race.

Problem solved. There would be less cheating.

Also, it would help to capture sector times in order to filter cars (possible candidates for impound) that are going faster than physically possible.
Click to expand...

This is amatuer racing. Car taken away really, who would have that job? :rolleyes: Try and take anything I own away.
 
awegrzyn said:
GThis is how I would do this in my club:
Click to expand...


Good luck getting anyone to race in "your club". What you have there is a mix of claimer rules that you see on roundy round tracks and rules from professional motorsports.

The SCCA is neither.
 
Please expand on the two highlighted items paying particular attention to time, staffing and financial resource requirements.
Click to expand...

My goal was to save time, money, and have almost no Tech staffing. Right now we have about 15 people sitting there around the Tech. Not to mention we Tech, Impound, Tear cars, and etc at every event. It costs tons of money. Why?

It would be easier to do this: Eliminate Tech staff minus one guy who can help competitors run in the event. Instead of teching/inspecting/impounding/tearing random cars at every event, you could do it randomly once or twice per season. No one would know THE date or time when the inspection happens.

Instead of using club staff I would train college students from automotive schools and pay them to do the inspection. That, or any other driver unrelated group that would want to get paid to do a good inspection. Inspections would be camera recorded without the owner being there. Inspectors would run a secret list in order to check cars. It's not difficult.

In terms of money for paid inspections I would cancel the burger and fries for the drivers (about $5000 last I checked) and used that to have smooth events. Beer would stay.

Contingency money, prices, and trophy would be announced at the end of the season where every car would already be "clear".

The loogbook that each car has would become the title that would be granted to you (land in the states is granted like that) as a privilege to race in the club. Those that do not want to race like that, we simply don't need.
 
I'd love to see a general range of how much various items would cost to protest. Is there such a list?

One (of the many) issue I see with taking a car away is that most people don't build their own engines. Are they responsible for what happens? Yes. However when said engine builder says it's legal, they know the rules, and it's not legal.... I also realize this is why it's important to choose your builder carefully.

I still would be interested in knowing the typical amount it would cost for various items. I also know that it still varies depending on the car. I looked into a bmw 2002 cam check and the way it's built, the process was not simple. Didn't race against the guy often so it wasn't as important but was curious.
 
Really most people do not know what they are looking at, so they would not know what to protest on a car they have never worked on.

A butterfly being discounted, wrong stock TB or cams in the engine, three things that stand out to someone that has a few of the type of car.

There was a car at the JRRC that was "too fast" tech seem to know it but did not know what they were looking at. They were comparing internet photos to what was under the hood of this car.

I could tell you that there was two things wrong that could be seen but they are easily missed when you are using internet photos.

But I just figured if she is cheating to keep up with #1 and #2, how much are #1 and #2 cheating to be where they are.
 
Except for a few select events, we are lucky to have more than three or four people in tech at most regional events.

We also don't have cars being routinely torn down. What happens at the ARRC is more like the Runoffs than the average regional event which is to say, minimal, if any, impound tech, none of which is invasive.

You are suggesting paying someone to do the work being done now by volunteer staff. It takes several years to get an SCCA tech inspector to the point where they can supervise an event. Who's going to train the next generation?

Where are you that drivers get their lunch paid for by the organizers? Workers, yes. Drivers, not that I've ever seen.

It sounds like you have a local situation that needs to be addressed locally. The SCCA is a nationwide organization with significant differences in entry and event staffing from region to region. Your proposed "solution" would be a bigger burden on most programs than problems it would solve.

awegrzyn said:
My goal was to save time, money, and have almost no Tech staffing. Right now we have about 15 people sitting there around the Tech. Not to mention we Tech, Impound, Tear cars, and etc at every event. It costs tons of money. Why?

It would be easier to do this: Eliminate Tech staff minus one guy who can help competitors run in the event. Instead of teching/inspecting/impounding/tearing random cars at every event, you could do it randomly once or twice per season. No one would know THE date or time when the inspection happens.

Instead of using club staff I would train college students from automotive schools and pay them to do the inspection. That, or any other driver unrelated group that would want to get paid to do a good inspection. Inspections would be camera recorded without the owner being there. Inspectors would run a secret list in order to check cars. It's not difficult.

In terms of money for paid inspections I would cancel the burger and fries for the drivers (about $5000 last I checked) and used that to have smooth events. Beer would stay.

Contingency money, prices, and trophy would be announced at the end of the season where every car would already be "clear".

The loogbook that each car has would become the title that would be granted to you (land in the states is granted like that) as a privilege to race in the club. Those that do not want to race like that, we simply don't need.
Click to expand...
 
So how do I impound all or get the group of ITB drivers to talk it out aferwards? I assume that walking the paddock will result in little result. Get the group, explain why we need to change what is going on, and see what happens.
 
Over the years we have had impound alls in the NCR/CCR region to discuss various things, mainly body contact and what not. Tech is there to perform safety primarily, not to solve your legality problems for you, therefore I recommend you talk to the steward of your group. Express your concerns to him and suggest that he have an "impound all" where he'll discuss legality and the importance of adherence to the rules. He can then talk to tech to get the impound all to occur after qualifying or the race.

You could even throw in a spot check of a component to reinforce the point. Something easy to determine but meaningful, like fifth gear ratio. If you could get ahold of a whistler that'd be an easy check. I imagine that your steward will be willing to assist and might have some ideas too.
 
I have been reading along for awhile now and i have to say something. I live in Florida and i am in the CFR and also in the ITB group. I really do think we have a GREAT group of cars and drivers in our group. I can honestly say that all i can think of is maybe 1 car that might be, not good. I feel that if you think there is a problem just pull the group together and talk. If you feel that there is a " not good car" just go talk with them and express what you feel is wrong, just talk. We are all adults out here and talking goes a long way. I have raced at VIR,CMP and Lowes and the first thing after a race is that the top 5 cars are weighed and yes i have seen cars dismissed due to being light. Could be a good starting point. I myself have learned so much from watching the front runners on youtube and talking with fellow racers. You can learn so much that way. I LOVE this region and the people here. Just my .02
 
manny said:
I live in Florida and i am in the CFR ........ I have raced at VIR,CMP and Lowes and the first thing after a race is that the top 5 cars are weighed and yes i have seen cars dismissed due to being light. Could be a good starting point.
Click to expand...

Question: Are you implying that light cars are not DQ'ed in FL? Surely that can't be the case.

If you guys are not QD'ing light cars then yeah, you've got to get a starting place for legality.
 
I'm not implying that light cars are not DQ it's just that i havent seen it down. Just saying to maybe lets get back to basic's so we can move on and keep enjoying this GREAT hobbie that we are gifted to be able to do. My wife,kids and family enjoy the wives,kids and families of the other racers too.
 
It should be pretty easy to see fop finishers run cross the scales at the end of every qualifying session and race...

K
 
It is standard operating procedure at CMP, Charlotte, VIR and Savannah for the top 3 or 4 cars to get weighed after a race.

At Daytona this year after finishing second (by a few yards, drat), we were not weighed in impound.
 
I can't speak for CFR events as we haven't finished high enough to be summoned to impound at their tracks, but Fla Region scales the top cars regularly after events. I was under the impression CFR normally did as well, but I don't recall seeing it.
 
General thoughts:
I was involved in a infamous protest, (Written up here as "a Protest Story", I think.)

Cliff notes.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Know the car you are protesting. Know what it costs to do the things you want to do. organize them in alogical manner, and protest things along the teardown path. Like throttle body size.

FORM A GROUP. But keep it small, and try to have guys with different skills. You feel bad/guilty? Get somebody who's a non tech type but a crusader fro truth and justice to head it up and do the filing. Split a number of ways lessens the workload, and the financial risk.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO KILL THE KING, KILL THE KING. Do not injure the king, that just pisses him off and he semds his henchmen after you. In other words,do't let the thing go half assed. Don't have the Stewies warn him. Just do it, and STICK TO IT.

PLAN on your weekend being ruined. You will spend a staggering amount of time on it. (Less if your homework is done well). You will be all keyed up. Maintain an even stain, and be a man.

Plan to lose some money, even if you win. House keeps a percentage. ;)

Every region needs a good take no holds but respectfully done and professionally handle protest now and then. (IOW, don't be vexatious, and protest somebody just to hassle them Steve Gorrian style)

Talk to your tech guy, and request IMPOUND ALL after qualifying. Yea, people say that it's dumb, because nobody knows what they are looking at, but thats BS. SOMEBODY knows what they are looking at. Just not one guy for every car. But open hoods mean the guy cheating figures ONE of the observers might know something, and that makes them nervous. Also, minor stuff like missing heater hoses give hints, and those cars deserve a closer look. Or how about cold air sourcing? Something odd about that battery.. (hollow), and so on.

Remember what Kirk says about protesting the Stewards as well. In my case grievous mistakes were made, and I should have protested the officials, but I didn't do my homework in that area.

Talking first to a guy: In SOME cases, yes, but in others, no. You have to remember your goals. If the cheat is a "doesn't know better" deal, then yea, give him a heads up. But if it's malicoius and premeditated, then I say you premeditate a protest and carry it out in cold blood. ;)


It takes balls to protest. But it's often the RIGHT thing to do.

And don't let people talk you down, with phrases like "Why bother, it's just a plastic trophy", because thats bs. it's not about the $$, it's about the integrity.
 
There are many days at the CFR regionals where we are not weighed. Often Sun PM late in the day. Also often the scales have not been open.

More recently,this past year, the techs and the scales have been much more racer friendly.

WE all must remember that this is not pro racing. We are racing with a few guys that you should consider friends. Walk and talk among the paddock.
Sat afternoon is the good time to meet new racers and also discuss a few tech items. I have had this discussion many times . VW cam, VW gear sets etc.
Most guys are not as foreward as I am. I get that. But pushing paper should be the last defense IMHO.
My statement would be more like "I am pretty sure that your gear set is may not be legit. Could you check it before your next race? please.
The VW Mk 1 cars ; Ihave never seen the right weak cam installed in any of the cars. But they have not be raced inthe last few years. Most have simply moved on to Prod, where the light flywheels, cams etc are more legal. FWIW you can look into the VW plug hole to see the pistons' dish.

Talk first, make friends, not enemies. Please do all that we can do to keep racers. Make gentle rule discussions.
** Really some guys have no clew if the car is legal. **
The IT cars have been sold raced a long time now. Many are on the third owner, 4th log book etc. IMHO. MM
 
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