September 2011 Fastrack

Ron Earp said:
Oh noz! Have I now joined The Others and won't be let on track with The Rest of Us?
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The irony is that you are probably among the most capable of making the system work under race conditions of anyone who takes care of their own hooptie.

You don't NEED to remove it; you just WANT to remove it. But I guess that's totally OK as long as you are honest about it.

:shrug:

K
 
Knestis said:
You don't NEED to remove it; you just WANT to remove it. But I guess that's totally OK as long as you are honest about it.

:shrug:

K
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Oh, no doubt there, I want to remove it. The simpler my race car is the happier I am with it.

But, I also play legally. So if I can't remove it I want to know how to make it work. I was thinking:

1. Best highest boiling fluid one can buy
2. Underdrive crank pulley
3. Cooling fan integrated into the back side of an alternative PS pulley that is appropriately sized with the underdrive crank pulley to create a system that generates little pressure

I've never had a car with PS and don't know what to expect. The AS guy I talked with about the Ford system complained mightily. But, I don't know what lengths he went to make it work. He had a sock around the reservoir, which I suspect was there to insulate it. If that is all he was doing to make it work, well, you get what you put in.
 
LOL - we used to put socks (or wrist sweat bands) around the reservoirs on our Girling and AP independent MC's on our formula cars and sports racers, because the vibration buzzed them so bad they spewed fluid out of the vent holes in the caps - just to preemptively soak up the spills.

K
 
Knestis said:
LOL - we used to put socks (or wrist sweat bands) around the reservoirs on our Girling and AP independent MC's on our formula cars and sports racers, because the vibration buzzed them so bad they spewed fluid out of the vent holes in the caps - just to preemptively soak up the spills.

K
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Same premise with my Nissan. before I pulled the PS system, I had 2 or 3 blue paper towels folded over and zip-tied around the top of the reservoir. I had to replace them about every other event and top off the system.
 
Knestis said:
LOL - we used to put socks (or wrist sweat bands) around the reservoirs on our Girling and AP independent MC's on our formula cars and sports racers, because the vibration buzzed them so bad they spewed fluid out of the vent holes in the caps - just to preemptively soak up the spills.

K
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All this PS talk prompted me to go see what I had on the stang. I spent the entire weekend stripping the interior but haven't ever spent much time in the engine bay.

Turns out there is a loop from the PS box that goes out in front of the radiator. Probably about six feet of tubing all told and clearly the function is to make a crude cooling loop. I'm sure there is *just enough* of a loop there to keep the system working in 120F temps under normal driving conditions but I doubt it'd survive enduro duty. However, it gives me something to work with. Lines are free, I can make 20 feet of a S-shaped structure in front of the radiator that should perform some extra cooling.

Picture is worth a 1000 words. Mine doesn't look like either of these but it is close. Apparently on some SN95 Mustangs there was a rudimentary cooler. Have to find out if those were on 1998 Mustangs or on the series that is on my line in the ITCS.

ps_cooler.jpg
 
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pul·ley (p
oobreve.gif
l
prime.gif
emacr.gif
)n. pl. pul·leys 1. A simple machine consisting essentially of a wheel with a grooved rim in which a pulled rope or chain can run to change the direction of the pull and thereby lift a load.
2. A wheel turned by or driving a belt.​

Alternate water pump, alternator, power steering, and crankshaft
pulleys of any diameter or material may be used.​

Is it a wheel? Does it have a grooved rim in which a pulled rope or chain can run to change the direction of the pull? Is it any diameter or material?

I think that Jeff is correct. Need photo of exactly he means though.
 
Allow looping the hoses and removing the pump.(per Greg)
Some cars had the "option" of no PS. But most cars were deliverd with PS. The non pS parts get scarce. Looping the system removes the problem. evens up the cars. If you like the PS , keep it.
 
jjjanos said:
pul·ley (p
oobreve.gif
l
prime.gif
emacr.gif
)n. pl. pul·leys 1. A simple machine consisting essentially of a wheel with a grooved rim in which a pulled rope or chain can run to change the direction of the pull and thereby lift a load.
2. A wheel turned by or driving a belt.
​
Alternate water pump, alternator, power steering, and crankshaft
pulleys of any diameter or material may be used.
​
Is it a wheel? Does it have a grooved rim in which a pulled rope or chain can run to change the direction of the pull? Is it any diameter or material?

I think that Jeff is correct. Need photo of exactly he means though.
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LMAO. Try this:

Pulley - A rotational attachment for a drive belt
 
warts and all sorry folks...

Letter submitted NOT in favor of changing the intent of IT.

Per 9.1.3.B INTENT, "Other than those specifically allowed by these rules, no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered, or removed"

Stephen
 
Ron Earp said:
Lines are free, I can make 20 feet of a S-shaped structure in front of the radiator that should perform some extra cooling.
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where does it say that?
GCR 9.1.3.D.1.h said:
Oil pans, pan baffles, scrapers, windage trays, oil pickups,
lines, and filters are unrestricted. Oil and power steering hoses
may be replaced with metal braided hose (i.e. Aeroquip). A
pressure accumulator/”Accusump” may be fitted. The location
of the filter and accumulator are unrestricted, but they shall
be securely mounted within the bodywork. All oil lines that
pass into or through the driver/passenger compartment shall
be metal or metal braided hose. Dry sump systems are prohibited
unless fitted as standard equipment. Engine oil and oil additives are unrestricted.
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This is the only rule I can find re: power steering lines. in fact, this and the pulley rule are the only mentions of power steering in the ITCS.

I don't see anywhere that allows the addition of a cooler, nor the replacement of the OEM type PS fluid. I'd agree that PS fluid is an "oil" but the use of "power steering" and "engine oil" in the above and other rules leads me to believe that there is a distinction intentional to the rules.

there's a fair bit of poor wording (at least wording constructed by those not predicting the imagination of racers or overestimating the racer's adherence to class philosophy) in the ITCS, so it could be that PS coolers are intended to be allowed, but I certainly don't see where that is made clear.

I have said it before - I begrudgingly accept the bearing pulley is legal under the wording of 9.1.3.D.1.n but I still think that using it to disable PS is unintended, and illegal due to the lack of specific allowance to disable power steering. so I guess if you run an allowed manual rack and a power steering accessory setup with a bearing pulley, I'm OK with that.

however: I do not think that allowing the removal of PS is necessarily outside of the category philosophy - there's a lot of things I'd allow the removal of if I were to rewrite IT. my issue is with the parity that may or may not be broken and the potential for unintended consequences. I'm not a creative rules reader - I have a hard time predicting good "cheats" allowed in the rules. so I'm inclined to leave the rule alone unless I get some really good reasons ("I support..." is not one) or overwhelming membership input in favor if the delete.

and to Andy B: you can disable the pump (cut the belt, bearing pulley, whatever) and the rack will behave fine. it has to, as a safety feature. the side of the assist under pressure will be directly connected to the return, and the "pressure" side will be open through the pump and bypass so any vacuum alleviates itself. the time between the spool valve connecting one side to press/vent and being open to the return for both LH and RH circuits is minimal, anyhow. the only thing you might find on a depowered rack is some initial slop and a slight lack of feel due to the necessary torsional displacement of the pinion to the steering column on rack systems.
 
Ron Earp said:
Turns out there is a loop from the PS box that goes out in front of the radiator. Probably about six feet of tubing all told and clearly the function is to make a crude cooling loop.
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That's exactly what my BMW has.

I use an underdrive pulley. No problems. You'll probably say that Ford is not BMW. I say give it a go, THEN try to make changes if you really need to. I think you'll be fine.
 
Chip42 said:
where does it say that?

This is the only rule I can find re: power steering lines. in fact, this and the pulley rule are the only mentions of power steering in the ITCS.
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Says the lines can be replaced with metal braided hose. That might be 20 feet of metal braided hose. And it might end up being the aircraft metal braided hose with built in heat sinks provided I can find some of what I saw about ten years ago.

JoshS said:
I use an underdrive pulley. No problems. You'll probably say that Ford is not BMW. .
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You're right there. The Ford doesn't have life time fluids, plastic water pumps, and a propensity to need $$$$ repairs before 100k is up.

Yes, I'm going to give it a go and see how it does.
 
This would be another opportunity for me to chime in about how interested I am to see how Ron's effort pans out. It could be a real boon in the class.

K
 
jjjanos said:
Damn, it is. And the definition of drive belt shuts the door on the bearing 'cause the drive belt is defined as providing the driving force for engine accessories.
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Quoted for ITAC to consider when expressly saying things are legal now, and people are doing it.

The ITCS isn't the only thing we have to look at to determine legality.
 
Chip42 said:
and to Andy B: you can disable the pump (cut the belt, bearing pulley, whatever) and the rack will behave fine. it has to, as a safety feature. the side of the assist under pressure will be directly connected to the return, and the "pressure" side will be open through the pump and bypass so any vacuum alleviates itself. the time between the spool valve connecting one side to press/vent and being open to the return for both LH and RH circuits is minimal, anyhow. the only thing you might find on a depowered rack is some initial slop and a slight lack of feel due to the necessary torsional displacement of the pinion to the steering column on rack systems.
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While I love the technicality of the response, what I am going on is the stories of how hard it is to turn when a car loses it's PS belt on track. My impression is that it is NOT like a depowered and looped rack. Maybe those drivers are so spoiled they just need some gym time. :)
 
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