September Fastrack is out...

Darin, us guys has only been two people. I think you'll find that most us us are happy with the classification. Pretty cool to finally have another car in ITC.

Jake - the MR2 weight. I still think there are some ways that you could get the total weight down. It just never really mattered much because where the car is.

You're cage for example, there may be a way to have it so that not as many bars are needed. Can't remember - do you have a passenger side door bar? Not suggesting you sacrifice safety if felt this adds to it. Under coating? Has all of that been scraped off? You're exhaust header. Still stock, right? I lost some weight when added the aftermarket one. Like you said, a 170 lb or even 180 driver adds to the possible weight deduction as well. Then there are the multiple layers of Krylon paint. (just teasing)

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
I wonder where the golf turbo diesel would end up??
smile.gif
I ponder the fuel milage...enduro possibilites...mike g.
 
Originally posted by m glassburner:
I wonder where the golf turbo diesel would end up??
smile.gif
I ponder the fuel milage...enduro possibilites...mike g.
Click to expand...


We actually have two Mercedes 190s (I think that's the model) turbo diesels that run in ITE up here... Pretty fast too...


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
Originally posted by Jake:
Wow - I'd love to take a look at that "Legal" MR2. Unless the guy is a jockey.

FWIW, with my 200lb carcass, I'm at about 2410 dry on my car and I have taken it to the limit of legal. For weight, I've done such things as remove the radiator cooling fans, evap core, and emergency brake. The cage is the legal minimum. The only thing I haven't done is acid dipped the tub.

I could probably loose another 10-15 lbs if I got some ligher wheels than my Revolutions. (fancy pants Volks or other)

FWIW - I drive a 1987 MR2 which do start a little heavier than the 85-86 models.
Click to expand...

Hey Jake!
Yeah the '85 is noticably lighter than an '87. My '86 was legal and if I didn't carry around a couple gallons of gas I did not make minimum weight. (those that wonder, I weigh 125-130 lbs).
Are you still running the stock side mirrors? There were still lots of things we could legally remove from our mr2 but due to weight never bothered. Still have the radiator fans on mine. You're not still running that spare tire up front right (grin)?
 
Dave - I'd love to entertain ways of lightening up. If I weighed 130lbs, I'd be underweight - but I don't wee that happening soon!
 
Darin,

I just checked, and the curb weight I found for a '99 NB GL was 2769#. Also, I don't know if you can get that 25% increase out of the 2.0 x-flow motor or not. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see new ITC cars, I really am. It just really makes me scratch my head when the request to move the Rabbit GTI from ITB to ITC gets shot down, because the car would be 'too fast', yet the NB is not perceived that way.

I also find it interesting that you say the NB would need to weigh ~2450# in ITB, yet the Golf III, w/ the exact same motor, was moved from ITA to ITB at 2350#. IIRC, most of the brake/suspension components are very similar between the A3 and A4 platforms. I'm curious as to what components/technology the NB has over the Golf III that would have added the extra 100#.

And here's another dilema. The specs on the car listed 16" wheels. I checked, and the cars came w/ either 17x7 or 16x6.5. Guys talk about how are it is to find 14x7 wheels, I bet a 16x6 is harder yet. I suppose everyone could go out and buy 15x6 wheels for the cars.

I'm also still bothered by how portly the car is compared to the other cars in the class.

On a totally seperate note, on the subject of PCA's. In the recent issue of the WDCR newsletter (The Straightpipe), there was an article about the recent SportsCar article on adjustments in IT. Throughout the entirel Straightpipe article, they referred to the adjustments as competition adjustments. The point I'm making here, is that I would guess that this is a common perception among members (or at least IT racers), that whatever you want to call it, it's still comp. adjustments.

I'm not sure if the article is availble online or not. If you'd like a copy, I can make you one and send it to you.

BTW, I totally agree w/ Kirk's comments re: math!
biggrin.gif


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I'm also still bothered by how portly the car is compared to the other cars in the class.
Click to expand...

How many races does everyone attend where ITC is the only group on the track? This argument holds little water. You have varying types of cars of different weights, drivetrains, and types of body panels/bumpers (metal and plastic) all on the track at the same time. Sometimes the best racing isn't even within the class, so I don't think this is a big deal.



------------------
Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers
 
I haven't seen enough ITC total in the last few years to fill a grid. 4 or 5 cars at a race is pretty good.

If ITC ends up with 20 NB at every event, this might turn out to be good. I imagine that a NB would have a tough time with a 510 or a Honda anyway.
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I also find it interesting that you say the NB would need to weigh ~2450# in ITB, yet the Golf III, w/ the exact same motor, was moved from ITA to ITB at 2350#. IIRC, most of the brake/suspension components are very similar between the A3 and A4 platforms. I'm curious as to what components/technology the NB has over the Golf III that would have added the extra 100#.
Click to expand...

Bill, as you might recall, the Golf III move from ITA to ITB was before the current ITAC had much say in the specifications... It happened just as we were forming, if I recall. If someone had run it by us and asked for our recommendation for weight, it may have been different... (just for grins... what is the stock HP output of the Golf III? I'll run the math and let you know what I think it should weigh...)

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">And here's another dilema.  The specs on the car listed 16\" wheels.  I checked, and the cars came w/ either 17x7 or 16x6.5.  Guys talk about how are it is to find 14x7 wheels, I bet a 16x6 is harder yet.  I suppose everyone could go out and buy 15x6 wheels for the cars.</font>
Click to expand...

We'll just have to see how this one pans out... If it were up to me, all of IT would be limited to 7" rim widths, and whatever diameter they could fit in the stock wheel wells, but it's not up to me...

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I'm also still bothered by how portly the car is compared to the other cars in the class.</font>
Click to expand...

Well, I think this is going to be more the norm than the exception as time rolls on. If we are going to get these things in classes where they can actually be competitive, the class that seems logical may not yield a logical weight, so moving the car down at a heavier weight is the other choice...

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The point I'm making here, is that I would guess that this is a common perception among members (or at least IT racers), that whatever you want to call it, it's still comp. adjustments.</font>
Click to expand...

I suppose, but if you look at what is happening, cars are NOT being moved based on their race results (OK, it may trigger a look...)... When a car is considered for reclassification, it is looked at for it's mechanical characteristics, with on-track performance a secondary consideration. Weights will get adjusted if the math says they should be. This is a case where we need to educate the competitors as to the real intent and use of PCAs...

And, I would like to see a copy of that article. Sounds like we have some issues we still need to address to get everyone to understand...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
Darin,

The A3 Golf has the same 2.0 X-flow motor as the NB (albeit, some are OBD I and some are OBD II, depends on the year), and it makes 115hp stock. While you're at it, run the numbers on the Rabbit GTI for both ITB and ITC. Stock hp is 90.

I just checked, and they don't have the most recent version of Straightpipe online. I'll try and get a copy out to you. Sene me an email w/ your snail mail address

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
I'm an ITC competitor and I LOVE seeing the New Beetle there. A few points (and admittedly I know nothing about the car other than what I've read in Magazines).

1. Weight is not an issue compared to the other cars in class. Every enduro I've ever been in included 2700+lb cars all over the track. So if the NB is "Too Heavy" for ITC, then using the same logic we need to start splitting enduros into 2 or 3 groups <toungue planted hard in cheek>.

2. It'll need to be able to use 15x6 wheels.

3. The car is a big fat pig. As an ITC competitor I'm not worried about it at all. I look forward to seeing some on the track, but I ain't building one.

4. Class more cars like this and bring life into ITC. There are plenty out there that fit. Sure, newer cars tend to have bigger wheels/brakes and more power than the VWs and Hondas from the late 70s to early 90s, but they also tend to be a shitpot heavier.
The Honda CX hatchbacks, Low end Tercels and Sentras, Hyundais... Bring it on!!!
Anything with around 100hp and 2500lbs. It won't upset the class at all.

ITC is all about overcoming some sort of major deficiency with the car. Lack of power, crappy brakes, horrendous gearing... and now... Porkiness.

Scott, who thinks his 4 speed, 2140lb Civic could probably handle that fat VW without much trouble
wink.gif
. Where ya at Coffin?
 
If and when we get to use 15" wheels, will we be allowed to change over to 5 lug bolt circle for safety and availabilty of present mfg 15" mag wheels. A 15" wheel with a 4 lug bolt circle is usualy a custom made wheel ($$$$) Changeing a car over is a easy and cheap mod.
 
Originally posted by Dick Elliott:
If and when we get to use 15" wheels, will we be allowed to change over to 5 lug bolt circle for safety and availabilty of present mfg 15" mag wheels. A 15" wheel with a 4 lug bolt circle is usualy a custom made wheel ($$$$) Changeing a car over is a easy and cheap mod.
Click to expand...

All Spec Miata's use 15 x 7's with a 4 lug hub. It may be more common than you think.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
So given the newest inclusion of the beetle in ITC, what's the procedure for getting the Mustang moved there as well?

2640 Lbs
105 Hp stock (91-93 trim)
Aerodynamic as most bricks...

And I race with the leaders in ITC now, so it's not like I'd be racing with a different crowd, just I'd be racing the crowd for the win, instead of for PIC.


------------------
-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com
 
Originally posted by Catch22:
I'm an ITC competitor and I LOVE seeing the New Beetle there. A few points (and admittedly I know nothing about the car other than what I've read in Magazines).

1. Weight is not an issue compared to the other cars in class. Every enduro I've ever been in included 2700+lb cars all over the track. So if the NB is "Too Heavy" for ITC, then using the same logic we need to start splitting enduros into 2 or 3 groups <toungue planted hard in cheek>.

2. It'll need to be able to use 15x6 wheels.

3. The car is a big fat pig. As an ITC competitor I'm not worried about it at all. I look forward to seeing some on the track, but I ain't building one.

4. Class more cars like this and bring life into ITC. There are plenty out there that fit. Sure, newer cars tend to have bigger wheels/brakes and more power than the VWs and Hondas from the late 70s to early 90s, but they also tend to be a shitpot heavier.
The Honda CX hatchbacks, Low end Tercels and Sentras, Hyundais... Bring it on!!!
Anything with around 100hp and 2500lbs. It won't upset the class at all.

ITC is all about overcoming some sort of major deficiency with the car. Lack of power, crappy brakes, horrendous gearing... and now... Porkiness.

Scott, who thinks his 4 speed, 2140lb Civic could probably handle that fat VW without much trouble
wink.gif
. Where ya at Coffin?
Click to expand...

I'm definitely curious...it could be fun BUT you're right. It is heavy. Tires could be an issue, and the thought of trying to horse a 2700 lb FWD car around Kershaw or VIR...A John Deere comes to mind.
frown.gif


For right now, I'm committed to my GP Scirocco so someone else will have to carry the banner. Maybe someone can get BSI interested in building one!

MC

------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp
 
Originally posted by Banzai240:
I suppose, but if you look at what is happening, cars are NOT being moved based on their race results (OK, it may trigger a look...)... When a car is considered for reclassification, it is looked at for it's mechanical characteristics, with on-track performance a secondary consideration. Weights will get adjusted if the math says they should be. This is a case where we need to educate the competitors as to the real intent and use of PCAs...

And, I would like to see a copy of that article. Sounds like we have some issues we still need to address to get everyone to understand...
Click to expand...


Darin,

Just for grins, run the math on the 83-88 Scirocco.
1.8 8V 90hp
currently spec'ed at 2270# in ITB

P.S. I built the cage in Watney's car


------------------
Nico
KCRaceware (816) 257-7305
[email protected]
 
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