Should IT be Regional???

[zchris]

Jake, I agree and disagree. There needs to be a class that the guy looking into club racing can see as both affordable entry level and attainable. If he hears that a ITB car for instance, can cost 20,000. to build a front runner, he might think twice about club racing being an attainable goal. You and I both know that a newbie will not win in his first couple of years, but he needs to feel its an attainable as a goal. If he sees that it will take a pile of money he does not have, its likely he will never try. I don't know about you, but I am very goal oriented. I foolishly thought in my first few years a win was attainable. And after repeatedly getting my ass kicked I realised it might take a few more years. That or everyone else would have to crash out. As a club that wants to grow, I think this has been overlooked. And we could argue till the cows come home about the sense in rules creep. I see SM going national as good if for no other reason, it was getting to big to contain at a regional. Though I think it also has gotten out of hand in the rules department.
Chris Howard

 

[ddewhurst]

***You were supposed to say, "Be careful what you wish for..." ***

The folks with Spec Miata got just what they wished for at National................

Now it appears some IT people want to play the National game. You to will get what you ask for. Being generous 25% of the race class will have a opertunity to win & the other 75% got what they asked for. Have you noticed that Mr. Grammer is looking for IT cars to fill his enduro series races. Do ya suppose the 75% have had their fill all ready ?

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

The rules for SM haven't changed - people are just actually prepping to the max...

I am a believer that the top classes should go to the Runoffs...does anyone actually think that ITC (or to a lesser extent IT could actually make the numbers to get into the show? Although I am always surprised how FEW cars actually populate National race-grids, I would doubt ITC could make it - but some of the other classes put up crap for numbers. I will crunch some tonight...

Not that I am in favor of this idea but:

What if only ITR, ITS and ITA were eligible for Nationals? That leaves B and C alone and kills the perception that there is no 'affordable' place within IT. You could even 'grow' within your own category instead of having to move altogether. It's exclusionary but it does solve some problems.

The appeal for me is that I like the IT ruleset better than all the others. Meaning these cars are 'racecars' but the EXTENT of prep isn't much at all compared to the 24 currently allowed to go. Only SM and SS offer lower boundries. Plus, I want to be able to go and run against the best from ALL over the country - not just the Southeast. It's why we did it in Solo, it's why we would do it in CR.

AB

 

[ddewhurst]

***The rules for SM haven't changed - people are just actually prepping to the max...***

Andy, I understand. That & those that turn consistant lap times within lets say 3 tenths & less is what will differentiate the 25% from the 75%. That $1,200 clutch/pp, Pro motor & other items don't mean squat to the folks whose laps are scattered all over the chart.

 

[Greg Amy]

Another idea, courtesy of Amy and Mushnick brainstorming (over beers?)

When IT was designed in 1983, there was a 15-yr limit on the eligibility of cars (1968). As IT got older, that date stayed the same. However, Showroom Stock always had a roving expiration date, originally 5 years then good for Regional Only after that (for 5 more years was it?)

How about a compromise? How about vehicles are eligible for Showroom Stock for ten years (as they are now), eligible for National status Improved Touring once they're 5 years old (as they are now) but are only eligible for National status Improved Touring for 16 years. Once a car reaches twenty years old (or older) it reverts back to Regional Only status as it is now.

This resolves several desires: National status for those that want to go for the big prize, removal of older difficult-to-classify from serious reclassification and PCAs, and older cars can still play in the small pond with little threat of the big monies playing. Big monies can take the newer cars to Topeka while the older cars fade into history for folks to toodle around in locally...

Very easy to implement, much easier to police and adjust. - GA

 

[RSTPerformance]

1) With a 20 year old limit my car wouldn't even be eligable.... not in favor of that rule!!!

2) As for the limite number of cars, I don't think that ITB or ITC would have a problem reaching the goals.

3) I personally think that the "Regional" championships (NARRC, NERRC, NYSRRC, etc) are far more of a challenge than the NESCCA or National "Joke" of a championship series, thus I hope that those championships would not be effected, and if anything regional championships were made more "prestigeouse" than they currently are on a National level.

4) Why not "downgrade" some of the production class requirements such as fuel cells or race "slicks" and make IT legal cars fit into production? With that add an effort to be sure that EVERY it car/make that is classed in IT is also classed in Production. People could far more easily move up the ladder and have fun.

Raymond "If my post makes you wonder how I feel overall about the National/Regional issue... well you then understand how I actually do feel" Blethen

 

[shwah]

I am fine with staying regional. I also would not fight going national, however I have no problem stepping up to a different class if/when the runoffs become a target. I used to think this was a big deal, but it just doesn't matter much to me now. I like the racing I have available right now.

The comments about IT being nearly Prod prep level are laughable. Spend some time around a competitive Prod car and see if you still hold that opinoin. BTW the cost for limited prep is no different than full prep IMO. The only things limited are cylinder head and some suspension details. I don't see how you coud build a competitive one with less effort than a full prep car.

As far as worries about cost escalation when going national. That has everthing to do with your approach, injenuity, technical skill, circle of friends and bank account. If you are exceptionally strong in any of those areas it will influence the cost for your car. Don't sell yourselves short, we are resourceful enough to be competitive on our respective budgets - it is what we do today. Those that do have the funds will use that to their advantage, as they should, but you still have to know where to spend the darn money. You can put a production car on the podium at the runoffs for less than some of the numbers folks are throwing out as hypotheticals for ITA/B/C national efforts in this thread (unless you have to build the car twice )

 

[Nomex95]

What would happen if the class went national and then the class splits in a way. Some guys go only national races and some regional. I like racing in improved touring for the excitment and pretty good field size, now split that in half and we have half the fun? What if you win and the really fast guys weren't there cause they were saving thir car for a national, you still won but it would be better to beat the best. if all the fast guys go national racing so would i with some regional races if I can afford both. I'd rather be with the fast guys even if it meant I was an also ran.

Thanks,
Charlie #95ITB

 

[dickita15]

From my personal point of view as a competitor I could not care less if IT were a runoffs eligible car.

Greg, the fact that a cutoff date would make Raymond’s car ineligible should make that idea easier to sell.

To those that want to eliminate the distinction between national and regional races, the format for a national race is very rigidly determined by the GCR. There is much more flexibility to tailor race formats for regional races to serve the needs and wants for the competitor. If all race weekends were like the nationals it would be a lot less fun with a lot less actual racing.

I am sorry I got here after MC edited out most of his comments. I am glad Bill quoted a few. I always enjoy people making themselves look silly.

 

[Greg Amy]

...my car wouldn't even be eligable.... not in favor of that rule!!![/b]

See, Raymond, therein lies one of the major problems with this (and really any) rule change: everyone thinks in terms of how it will affect THEM as an individual, not what how it would affect the collective good. Is this proposal good for the category and club as a whole? Of course some people will be unhappy, and some will be very happy, but it would be very shortsighted for any individual to support or oppose anything based on how it would affect them alone. Don't forget, my car's a 1992, so it wouldn't be eligible for that much longer either!

Also don't forget that if you support this rule as a good idea and it passes, then for you then nothing would change: you'll still be racing Regionals only. If you oppose this rule because you wouldn't be eligible and it's shot down, then nothing changes: you'll still be racing Regionals only. So, for you, it's irrelevant: I would thereofre expect you will think of this in terms of the big picture and decide whether it's a good idea for the category long-term.

Originally posted by 'Nomex95'
What would happen if the class went national and then the class splits in a way. Some guys go only national races and some regional.

And, right there Charlie, is another problem: not everyone can be satisfied. A few posts above some folks were opposed to going National because it would cause an influx of a lot of people into the class; you're concerned because it might dilute the class! Sooo, which is it (Rhetorical question)? And, whichever way it turns out, will everyone be pleased?

Nope.

 

[Eric Parham]

I used to be against IT as national classes. Thanks in part to this discussion, I think I've changed my mind. I probably wouldn't push for such broad and sweeping changes as mentioned above, though. I think it would be enough to recognize that any class that is present and follows the same rules among all regions really is a de-facto national class already. Bill's non-IT regional examples (SRX7, etc.) don't have nationally recognized rules that are accepted by all regions (and I guess that's why they're not in the GCR). If a national class is still to be defined by participation numbers, I think it's time for us all to accept that the IT classes in the GCR are ready for that consideration, and more specifically a chance to compete at the Runoffs.

Bill has given this a lot of thought, and he has some solid ideas. Gregs been there, he knows what he's talking about. More money to go racing? Depends...as always, how fast do you want to go. Look at the top guys at the ARRC..most of the top cars there put tons of National class cars to shame in respect to build quality and program. [/b]

Ditto

But...what do we do about certain cars? Like cars that have different cams installed on Tuesdays than they do on Thursdays? Line item exclusions?
[/b]

I'll assume that you don't mean by the factory. I don't know if this is as much of an issue as it used to be. If it is, I think "going national" with IT can only help. In fact, I see one significant benefit of going national with IT to be helping with self-enforcement and/or willingness to protest tech stuff, at least at the "national" events. There would also be a filter-down to the regional events, based on both lap times and on the known-quantity national cars at least occasionally showing up at regional events. In the past, this may have been the biggest drawback of "regional-only" IT.

 

[charrbq]

I am a believer that the top classes should go to the Runoffs...does anyone actually think that ITC (or to a lesser extent IT could actually make the numbers to get into the show? Although I am always surprised how FEW cars actually populate National race-grids, I would doubt ITC could make it - but some of the other classes put up crap for numbers. I will crunch some tonight...



AB
[/b]

You never miss a chance, do you?

 

[lateapex911]

Ditto
I'll assume that you don't mean by the factory. I don't know if this is as much of an issue as it used to be. If it is, I think "going national" with IT can only help. In fact, I see one significant benefit of going national with IT to be helping with self-enforcement and/or willingness to protest tech stuff, at least at the "national" events. There would also be a filter-down to the regional events, based on both lap times and on the known-quantity national cars at least occasionally showing up at regional events. In the past, this may have been the biggest drawback of "regional-only" IT.
[/b]

I agree, that any legal scrutiny would help the category as a whole, at any and all levels.

But, the issue in making categorical policy changes is what to do about the exception.

IF there is a car like, lets call it a Jenorchmobile S999R, which was produced by a firm in the late 60s thru the 70s. Firm is now pretty much gone. Their documentation was sketchy, and it is known that as they were a small firm, they pretty much installed items in the car (pre emission days remember) as they could get them from suppiers on a random basis. This cam that day, that carb that month, whatever.

Now, that car is classed, and lo and behold, a cagey competitior starts dominating in that car. Tech throws up their hands...can't prove he's NOT legal, can't prove he IS!

Uh oh...Now we've created something even worse than a one model calss...we've created a one GUY class, LOL, as those cars are rare as hens teeth. Nobody can even change their program and buy one, LOL.

What do you do? Add weight to HIS car? Hmmm...kinda sounds like Prod...certainly not consistant with IT philosophy.

Well, the idea is to establish acceptabel documentation before allowing such cars to compete. As it stands now, such cars exist. They slipped thru the cracks 20 years ago. Those cars need to be dealt with in some way, either by line item exclusion (sorry guys), or thru age cutoffs (sorry more guys).


The age thing worries me as you eliminate cars in the middle of model runs. Like if we go 15 years back, and car that was produced from 89 to 93 now has half the models eliminated, but not all. If thats a good car for the class, the VIN rule makes the later models more desirable, and drives up the cost of aquiring one.

I'll add another factor: I bet the Top Brass likes the idea of more modern cars being raced. (I know that locally, Lime Rock thinks IT makes for great racing and likes tapping the locals for support races on their Pro weekends, but has decided against any more such events due to the older shaggy nature of IT.)

One thing Greg mentioned is 100% correct. No matter what, everyone won't be pleased. But then...is everyone pleased now???

One more thought on the money thing:

Racing is as expensive as the category/class is popular..

The Fathers of the category can't control that, but must attempt to make the money spent yeild diminishing returns.

 

[charrbq]

One more thought on the money thing:

Racing is as expensive as the category/class is popular..


[/quote]

No truer words were ever spoken! Did I hear ITA/S/R?

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

You never miss a chance, do you? [/b]

To state the facts as I see them - nope.

All we are doing is talking about average participation numbers across the country here. ITC is the least populated of all of IT, so it would make sense that it would be the first to go under the microscope for an anlysis of participation within the context of this proposal...but you want to see it as some sort of agenda against ITC on my part? Numbers are numbers.

<on edit> So maybe you are from a pocket of huge ITC numbers...so a cursory look at MyLaps shows these results from the races you have raced in so far as I can tell:

3-11 2 cars
5-6 7 cars
5-12 2 cars
5-27 1 car
5-28 1 car

5 race average - 2.6 cars per race. Throw out the high and low and you get 1.6 cars per race. The fact remains that if the most popular classes are invited to the Runoffs, ITC would be in danger no? THAT is all I was saying. But there could be huge fields somewhere I haven't seen yet. Also like I said, the Prod numbers across the counntry stink too. The June National at RA had 3 EP cars, 5 FP cars, 2 GTL, 1 GP and 4 HP.

I am ALL for the top classes getting in and the possible inclusion of all of IT would put a fire under some of these drivers/classes for sure.

AB

 

[charrbq]

Agenda, no. In your position, some things are better left unsaid. I don't argue numbers, they're correct, as you stated. I only wonder why you never miss a chance to pick up the shovel and toss the first scoop of dirt.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Agenda, no. In your position, some things are better left unsaid. [/b]

You mean inflamitory statements like 'ITC is the least populated of the IT classes and might not make the Runoffs if a pure numbers game was implemented'?

 

[JeffW]

AB,

My gut feeling is that S2000, CSR, DSR, HProd, or F500 could be replaced by ITR, ITS, ITA and ITB cars, based on participation numbers. F500 should be on the Super Go Kart circuit. Just like putting a gaggle of Legends cars out on my local 3/8 mile roundy-round.

Nomex95,

You are seeing the dilution of regional fields this year in SM because everyone wants to go to the Runoffs. Except for those guys who knew they were already running at the back of the field. Those guys are staying in the Regional races. Some SM Regional fields are only starting about 50% of what they have in the past. As some of those with Runoffs aspirations get their lunches handed to them at the National races, they will come sulking back to the Regionals. And they will be welcomed like the Prodigal Son. ( I mean, What fun is it only getting to watch half of the Spec Pinatas wreck?) ( On the other hand, can you imagine the carnage of an 80 car SM Runoffs starting grid all trying to get into Turn 1? I'm taking extra popcorn.)

With the exit of SM as a Regional-only class this year, the balance has shifted somewhat. Before SM went National, the Regional-only classes subsidized the Regions. We get hosed on the R/N weekends in the entry fee department, paying from 55% to 83% for a single race when compared to the cost of the double. (Nationally classed cars have the option of running both days, Region-only cars don't have that option.)

RE: Spec RX7 - most regional rules sets are more restrictive than the ITA rules, therefore the SRX7 can run as an underprepped ITA car. From reading this board, I know that Dew made the conversion in steps but continued to compete in an underprepped ITA car along the way. As long as the Regional-only classes like SRX7 have the foresight to contain the rules within those of IT, there will be a less expensive entry into Club Racing and the $40K National level car will not scare away the newbies. They'll pick SRX7 or something like NASA's Spec Neon or Spec E30 or PT().

Hmmm... 80 SM's into Turn 1 Oh, No! Mr. Bill

Jeff

(AB, I see you've already taken a straw poll.)

 

[charrbq]

You mean inflamitory statements like 'ITC is the least populated of the IT classes and might not make the Runoffs if a pure numbers game was implemented'?


[/b]

Don't twist what I wrote by adding words to my statement! It's unbecoming of someone in you position or profession.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Chris,

I have no idea what you are talking about. My statement was paraphrasing myself. When did I twist your words? You said 'some things are better left unsaid'...I am still not sure what I said to get your panties in a bunch. Just making the point that if any class in IT ain't gonna make the numbers, it's ITC. Simple, accurate and non-combative.