A double regional!!!! Has Limerock ever heard of one? The next 2 races there are for only 1 day. hope I don't break in pratice 'cause thre is no time to fix it. I live close by , so save on hotel bills, hey wait a minute, with a one day pratice and race there is no hotel bill. Didn't see that one coming.
Should IT be Regional???
- Thread starter lateapex911
- Start date
Bill Miller
New member
Maybe for those that live close, but if you live more than 3-4 hours away, you're going up the night before. And for what they charge you for a single day at LRP, they should provide hotels!
JeffYoung
New member
Good point by Bill and Kirk on "bad doubles" -- and there are some, with SARRC/MARRS being the poster boy for that.
CMP and Roebling run perfect double SARRC weekends with qual in the morning, race in the afternoon both days. That is a great value for a couple hundred dollars.
CMP and Roebling run perfect double SARRC weekends with qual in the morning, race in the afternoon both days. That is a great value for a couple hundred dollars.
Bill Miller
New member
Guys,
This is really morphing into a 'what kind of race weekend' thread. Please start another thread for that discussion.
This is really morphing into a 'what kind of race weekend' thread. Please start another thread for that discussion.
On the other hand, these issues are all intertwined. A big part of what makes a "National" a National is the schedule. If the question is narrowed to, "should the RunOffs schedule include only the top XX in average nationwide participation," it MIGHT be possible to answer that question, but the original post put issues into the National-Regional frame. Look at the issues that have come up:
Preparation levels
Cost containment
Weekend event schedules
Philosophies re: value for entrants
...and that's just from a quick scan of my often-faulty memory.
K
Preparation levels
Cost containment
Weekend event schedules
Philosophies re: value for entrants
...and that's just from a quick scan of my often-faulty memory.
K
Z3_GoCar
New member
LRP did a 1/2 day regional in the past few years, hmmmmm... what's to say we couldn't do a one day double!
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Oh, Oh, or a two day quad, or a three day sextuple
It'd be like a long drawn out endurance race with five enduros leading up to the main. You could go from front to back and back all before the main then blow it and go back again in the feature 
As for IT going national, well let's just say I have more appreciation for regional racing locally than ever before.
James
gran racing
Super Moderator
I’m not seeing this as such a silly reason. People who have money will always find a place to race. It’s the people that are running (or trying to get into the sport) on low budgets that could be hurt most.
What are people hoping to achieve by IT becoming a national class?[b/]
It sounds like the primary motivation is to have a national championship race for IT.
Then there is the “prestigue of being a national class”.
I keep following this thread waiting for the “that’s why we IT really should be a national class!” reason, but have yet to hear it. Based on what I’m hearing, the national championship race for IT seems to be the primary motivator. I’m also hearing that being a national class places various limitations on what can be done during the race weekend and will change things a bit for us. If this truly is one of the primary motivators, does IT really need to become a national class to achieve this? I’m really curious if this is one of the primary goals or if I’m totally off base with this.
Bill Miller
New member
Dave,
Unless the SCCA mgmt. changes things, and comes up w/ some kind of true National Championship for IT cars, then I believe that getting IT recognized as Runoffs-eligible is the only way to achieve this.
Unless the SCCA mgmt. changes things, and comes up w/ some kind of true National Championship for IT cars, then I believe that getting IT recognized as Runoffs-eligible is the only way to achieve this.
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
The primary reason for the bizarre schedules for doubles and sometimes a lack thereof is due to the required quiet time on Sunday at some tracks. At Road Atlanta is something like from 10 to 12:30. That's a lot of racing time cut out of the day.
Most regions would prefer to run doubles if time permitted. They only way we were able to do it was use all three days of Labor Day weekend.
Most regions would prefer to run doubles if time permitted. They only way we were able to do it was use all three days of Labor Day weekend.
RacerBill
New member
OK - keeping the issue of National vs Regional, Qual/non-qualifying out of the equasion, what are the goals of this thread?
Let's say that we agree that we would like to have a National champion in each of the IT classes. What would it take to get there - make IT classes National classes instead of Regional only? Would that be feasable?
The first thing that would have to be worked out would be run groups. I have not seen group counts (not class counts) for nationals recently, but an indication of what group counts might look like might be the group that ITA ran in at the OVR double regional just before the runoffs last year at Mid-Ohio - 54 cars in that field. So, it might take a little while, but we've been rearranging run groups for 50 years. I'm sure that it can be worked out again. Smaller tracks might have a problem with large groups, have to see.
The second issue with adding groups at the National level is the number of races that can be scheduled at the Runoffs. We now have three days of races. Any reason why that can't be expanded to 3.5 or 4 other than cutting into the practice/qualifying time?
I don't see any show stoppers other than objections that would come from the drivers that race at Nationals and the Runoffs. And I believe that, just like the ITR proposal, if we were to come up with a proposal, with input from the National drivers. that would be a win-win situation, the suggestion would fly.
What would be the effect on IT as we know it today? No one can really predict the future exactly. But there are some possibilities. 1) There would be more races that would be available to IT cars and drivers.
2) IT would have National champions, determined in the same way that other National champions are determined. 3) and time would have to tell with this one, racers with the bigger budgets would attend fewer regionals, giving the smaller budget teams more of a chance at winning (this is my vested interest!). 4) Regionals will still be regionals, and the regions will be left to their imagination to develope new forms of races (the Indy region handicap race comes to mind!).
Will there be more Nationally prepared cars competing at the Regional level? Don't know, time will have to tell. But that is nothing that the rest of the classes that compete at both the National and Regional levels face.
Someone in this thread asked 'why we IT should be a National class'. Because 1) the IT classes have been around for quite some time now. 2) we have car counts that could bolster the total car counts at National races. I believe that having a National champion is our prime motovator (not such a bad goal), but it will only change things (as far as race wekends) for those who compete at the National level.
Bottom line, I believe that going National will give us more choices and will increase the number of IT prepared cars.
OK, that's my two cents on the issue. I know that there will be others with different opinions, and that is good. I will listen to any and all suggestions before putting my support behind any single proposal. Thanks for listening to mine.
Remember, keep the friendly mood turned on!!!!
Let's say that we agree that we would like to have a National champion in each of the IT classes. What would it take to get there - make IT classes National classes instead of Regional only? Would that be feasable?
The first thing that would have to be worked out would be run groups. I have not seen group counts (not class counts) for nationals recently, but an indication of what group counts might look like might be the group that ITA ran in at the OVR double regional just before the runoffs last year at Mid-Ohio - 54 cars in that field. So, it might take a little while, but we've been rearranging run groups for 50 years. I'm sure that it can be worked out again. Smaller tracks might have a problem with large groups, have to see.
The second issue with adding groups at the National level is the number of races that can be scheduled at the Runoffs. We now have three days of races. Any reason why that can't be expanded to 3.5 or 4 other than cutting into the practice/qualifying time?
I don't see any show stoppers other than objections that would come from the drivers that race at Nationals and the Runoffs. And I believe that, just like the ITR proposal, if we were to come up with a proposal, with input from the National drivers. that would be a win-win situation, the suggestion would fly.
What would be the effect on IT as we know it today? No one can really predict the future exactly. But there are some possibilities. 1) There would be more races that would be available to IT cars and drivers.
2) IT would have National champions, determined in the same way that other National champions are determined. 3) and time would have to tell with this one, racers with the bigger budgets would attend fewer regionals, giving the smaller budget teams more of a chance at winning (this is my vested interest!). 4) Regionals will still be regionals, and the regions will be left to their imagination to develope new forms of races (the Indy region handicap race comes to mind!).
Will there be more Nationally prepared cars competing at the Regional level? Don't know, time will have to tell. But that is nothing that the rest of the classes that compete at both the National and Regional levels face.
Someone in this thread asked 'why we IT should be a National class'. Because 1) the IT classes have been around for quite some time now. 2) we have car counts that could bolster the total car counts at National races. I believe that having a National champion is our prime motovator (not such a bad goal), but it will only change things (as far as race wekends) for those who compete at the National level.
Bottom line, I believe that going National will give us more choices and will increase the number of IT prepared cars.
OK, that's my two cents on the issue. I know that there will be others with different opinions, and that is good. I will listen to any and all suggestions before putting my support behind any single proposal. Thanks for listening to mine.
Remember, keep the friendly mood turned on!!!!
Bill Miller
New member
So, back to the race scheduling question. How does one do a 2 day double weekend with 9 race groups and 250 to 300 cars?
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That's the point Greg, I don't think that you can, and give people any kind of meaningful amount of track time. The Pocono dbl is a good example. I'm not sure what the car counts were (I looked at this a while ago, and IIRC, they were pretty low, on the order of 200 or so). There were two qualifying sessions, one for Race 1 and one for Race 2, on Sat. The races were on Sun. IIRC, the qualifying sessions were 15 min. and the races were 8 or 9 laps. To me, races need to be at least 15 laps, unless you're talking about huge tracks like Road America or VIR. I didn't see the '06 MARRS/SARRC VIR dbl results, but the '05 Results showed 8 lap races w/ a duration of ~30 min. That's on a 4.2 mile track.
dickita15
New member
Well we in NER can do a pretty good double with 220 cars on a 1.6 mile track. To do more we would need a longer track. If racers are involved in running the race program the format will evolve into what is best for the local racers. Our workers have evolved what they do in order to come up with better formats. This will not happen unless racers are involved in the process of running races.
I think the reason many want us to be a national class is they perceive IT as being less important to SCCA than the national classes. I have never had that hangup.
I think the reason many want us to be a national class is they perceive IT as being less important to SCCA than the national classes. I have never had that hangup.
Bill Miller
New member
James,
That's still about the same distance and the same race time. I think last year's race was 8 laps on the Grand Course for a total distance of just under 34 miles w/ a total race time of 28.xx min. That's also about what a 16-lap IT race at Summit Point runs, 32 miles and 25-28 min. To me, that's a good sprint race.
I dont see an issue with the time format of the MARRS SP or VIR events. Remember I used to work long before I ever thought of being a driver. And I can say that on a nice sunny day, those 5 minutes of nothing between races (even when there is no cleanup) is sometimes the only chance you have to sit down and regroup your head and body for the next race. Specially if your out in pit or F&C because your out there unprotected from the elements.
So as much as I would like more track time, I also understand the fine balence of giving the drivers what they want, and giving the workers a chance to enjoy their weekend.
So as much as I would like more track time, I also understand the fine balence of giving the drivers what they want, and giving the workers a chance to enjoy their weekend.
gran racing
Super Moderator
Bill - that is exactly what I'm getting at. Forget changing IT to a national class, and get IT into the National Championship races. And this is not directed towards you Bill: National Championships has nothing to do with the silly national/regional designation. It has to do with being the best within your class. (Yeah, we can argue that too - trust me, I'd LOVE to have it held at Lime Rock Park in CT!!!!! Then again, costs for the race would be in excess of the $20K mark.
) Either way, aren't we getting the club to make a change? Here's where I'm going with this. Keep the same national groups, national and the same regional groups, regional. BUT include the regional groups within the National Championship races. To narrow things down, fine, limit it to the top X national classes and X regional classes.
By keeping IT as a regional class, it allows the flexibility of the weekend format, may (or may not) keep costs down to race in IT, give the regional classes "prestigue", amoung other things. If our goal is to get a true IT National Championship race and champion, do we need to become designated as a "national class"? I personally don't think so.
Bill Miller
New member
Dave,
With your scenario, how would you determine which drivers were eligible to race for the National Championship in any of the IT classes?
With your scenario, how would you determine which drivers were eligible to race for the National Championship in any of the IT classes?
Something to keep in mind, that I think a lot of folks are missing: no one - except maybe Bill, though I'm not sure - is proposing that IT be removed from the Regional program, just that IT be allowed to be added to the National program.
Nothing else will change, Regionals will still be there, likely with full fields...
Nothing else will change, Regionals will still be there, likely with full fields...