Should NON-US motors be allowed in ST?

[lateapex911]

Chris, you're missing the big picture. One, you state that the proponents are upsest that this didn't pass, although most were against it. Actually, the response was overwhelmingly in favor, and not by a little. So most DID want it.

But the big thing you're really missing is that it has nothing to do with JDM yo coolness and scnizzle...it has to do with the design of the class.

The class is based on displacement to weight. THATS IT. So, the best X litre engine will win. As the rules stand, the entire intake tract is left pretty much stock, and among the decent engines that could be used to race, the hugest variable are the components in the intake tract. So, what the rules REALLY say, is, find the best intake tract, and you'll have the obvious candidate for the most power per litre, and, since you have some freedom in chassis choice, you'll likely have the car to beat.

It really boils down to that. All engines are not created equal, but this cornerstone philosophy that's been the foundation of thae class assumes so, unless the originators of the class desired one engine to dominate.

Allowing ANY more options is a good thing Chris, because it opens the class up to more options. The STAC isn't going to approve of engines that would tilt the class on it's head. Ignore the financial aspects...those are red herrings. Who cares if the allowance costs more? Or less? Or is plentiful? Or rare? Does NOT matter, as long as it's an even allowance, it's all good, as it gives the class and the drivers more options..

 

[Matt93SE]

It is a JDM-yo colored glasses thing! It is a small handful of people wanting something that most don't think necessary.
Chris says "Are they serious?!?! That is complete BS! Way to cut out half the ricer kids that we need, like it or not!" Do you really think that those ricer kids are going to go out and build an actual racecar out of their cars, I seriously doubt it! We won't allow the terry cloth shoulder belt covers!
Someone asked early on "WHY" do we need this???" 2 or 3 people said "It will be better for me" thats about what I pulled out of it.
What about me putting a Honda motor in my BMW??? If you can put a JDM-yo ZZ, SR, whatever in your car(because), why not a Honda in a BMW? Why stop there?
Chip, a liberal application of money to eliminate a distributor??
I've ruffled enough feathers! Peace out!!

Hi.. that's me. I'm driving one of those "drift cars." I built my little rice box specifically for STU with the specific intention of swapping in one of these engines- which was allowed under the 2008 and 2009 rules until they re-worded the rules to include only US-spec engines.


Why am I asking for an alternate engine?
Can you name me ONE sub-3L Nissan engine that fits in a RWD chassis and makes more than 200hp for under $5000.
go ahead. start looking. you won't find one. I've been hopping up Nissans for 12 years now and haven't seen one yet.

Mazda 3 has an engine with more power than that, stock. So does BMW. Hondas rev to 12 million rpms so they get there too.

The engine I asked for is not an uber-engine. There are a hundred thousand or so of them out there. It was the engine that came in this chassis from the factory for EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IT WAS SOLD IN. The US/Canada is the ONLY place they put the KA24DE in this car. Europe, Japan, Africa, and Australia all got the SR20DE (non-turbo) or SR20DET (turbo).
The reason they're so popular here is because they're relatively cheap (you can swap one from $1000 to $5000, depending on condition), they make good power- on pump gas no less, and they're RELIABLE.
I'm not wanting to do the swap because it would crush the competition.. It would merely put Nissan on a level playing field with the power/liter that Subaru, Mazda, Audi, VW, and Mitsubishi are putting out with their small-bore turbo engines.


Excuse me, Old World Thinking... Japan would like through please.

 

[DoubleXL240Z]

Matt, I have a deal for you!! 2007 IS250 engine and 6 speed transmission, complete 40,000 miles, RWD!!
$4000 you pick it up or $4200 with me leaving Orlando and you leaving Houston, and we meet somewhere near Peniscola!!!

 

[DoubleXL240Z]

Guys, I'm not trying to be a douchebag. I just don't think "a case by case" basis is a fair setup. It leaves an "open" desicion making process, which is very easy to slant one way or another.
In STU the Integra type R, and the S2K engine are not allowed, too much potential, OK! When we allow the JDM-yo SR, 2GTE or whatever, then say "case by case" there is always room for bias. If Ben gets the 968 RS motor, and I find some obscure BMW limited production motor that has the potential to kick ass, then "in this case " its not approved!! I cry foul, or somebody finds something else with potential, it gets approved then the SR, ZZ guys say that motor will kill us 'NO FAIR'!!
I believe that within the USDM there is a level playing field, if not a known playing field, no surprises. With an open border scenario there is going to be surprises. then the horse is out of the gate. How do we get him back in.
You say Ignore the financial aspects...those are red herrings. Who cares if the allowance costs more? Or less? Or is plentiful? Or rare? Does NOT matter, as long as it's an even allowance, it's all good, as it gives the class and the drivers more options..
Chip said"what exactly are you trying to promote? one group was arguing for a low cost source of better parts for our use than those sold in the USDM, seemingly within the spirit of the rules, and a bunch of the advisory committee guys seem to agree. you are making silly arguments about brand swaps? really? how are they even an extension of one another? no one is begging for the ultra-rare uber box, they are looking for an easy "get me to the track, reliably" solution that is readily available and fits mechancially without pushing them overweight. seriously, you sound rediculous. yeah, I know, your side won...
Both Chip and Matt say 1000 dollars gets them a motor, and a low cost alternative. But Jake says ignore financial. We all know if one can spend another can overspend!! We have IT cars that approach $100k, what will happen here when that happens? An SR motor with 15k in developement makes what HP? Just throwing this out there!
Oh and Chip its ridiculous!!
Love you guys!!!

 

[Matt93SE]

Matt, I have a deal for you!! 2007 IS250 engine and 6 speed transmission, complete 40,000 miles, RWD!!
$4000 you pick it up or $4200 with me leaving Orlando and you leaving Houston, and we meet somewhere near Peniscola!!!

Would be nice if I drove a Toyota.

 

[DoubleXL240Z]

DDDOOOOHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
signed,
A. Dumass

 

[shwah]

I saw this as a class diversity opportunity.

There are some makes that just don't have a US spec motor that will breathe as well on the intake side as it needs to for success in this class.

However, if the STAC decides that they will adjust makes that don't have competitive powerplants available, I think the same level of diverse competitive options can be achieved.

 

[Mrsideways]

Hi.. that's me. I'm driving one of those "drift cars." I built my little rice box specifically for STU with the specific intention of swapping in one of these engines- which was allowed under the 2008 and 2009 rules until they re-worded the rules to include only US-spec engines.


Why am I asking for an alternate engine?
Can you name me ONE sub-3L Nissan engine that fits in a RWD chassis and makes more than 200hp for under $5000.
go ahead. start looking. you won't find one. I've been hopping up Nissans for 12 years now and haven't seen one yet.

Mazda 3 has an engine with more power than that, stock. So does BMW. Hondas rev to 12 million rpms so they get there too.

The engine I asked for is not an uber-engine. There are a hundred thousand or so of them out there. It was the engine that came in this chassis from the factory for EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IT WAS SOLD IN. The US/Canada is the ONLY place they put the KA24DE in this car. Europe, Japan, Africa, and Australia all got the SR20DE (non-turbo) or SR20DET (turbo).
The reason they're so popular here is because they're relatively cheap (you can swap one from $1000 to $5000, depending on condition), they make good power- on pump gas no less, and they're RELIABLE.
I'm not wanting to do the swap because it would crush the competition.. It would merely put Nissan on a level playing field with the power/liter that Subaru, Mazda, Audi, VW, and Mitsubishi are putting out with their small-bore turbo engines.


Excuse me, Old World Thinking... Japan would like through please.

Matt, How about the Turbo Motor out of the Nissan Juke?

 

[Chip42]

Matt, How about the Turbo Motor out of the Nissan Juke?

At 1.6L and with a small, economy minded turbo, probobly not a great fit. And the point of the SR20DET is the low price, easy firment, reliability, availability, and good stock turbo.

Even if it were a good fit, and it migh be I just bet it won't, its new, and nisan can barely keep up with demand of the whole car, so the price of the mill is likely to be quite high, relatively speaking.

I guess STU is going to be a rich mans playground for a long time. While that is the inevitable conclusion, I was really hoping for a few years of creativeand thrifty home brewed cars running up front. Oh well.

 

[Z3_GoCar]

I suggest a US-spec SR20DE with 12:1 compression, .600 cams/springs/retainers, and rods/bolts can make well over 220 ponies at the crank and a boatload of torque all the way up to 8000 RPM. That head casting is as good as the SR20VE one, you'll start with an NX high-port head, and you'll port it for airflow.

You don't need no steenkin' turbo.

GA

I'd listen to Greg, he knows Nissans. Request an alternate intake manifold, and add a crank-fire ignition tied to a custom ecu. If you can get a non-honda at more than 220hp, then you're doing well.

 

[Matt93SE]

I'd listen to Greg, he knows Nissans. Request an alternate intake manifold, and add a crank-fire ignition tied to a custom ecu. If you can get a non-honda at more than 220hp, then you're doing well.

sure.. that's fine and dandy. in theory.
Care to hand over the money it's going to take to build that engine? I sure as hell can't afford it.
The ECU and ignition alone would cost 75% of the cost of a JDM-swap. throw in that much more for the NA-SR engine, aftermarket manifold, fabrication, and another $1000 or so for tuning. no thanks. that's my budget for an entire season of racin.

 

[Mrsideways]

At 1.6L and with a small, economy minded turbo, probobly not a great fit. And the point of the SR20DET is the low price, easy firment, reliability, availability, and good stock turbo.

Even if it were a good fit, and it migh be I just bet it won't, its new, and nisan can barely keep up with demand of the whole car, so the price of the mill is likely to be quite high, relatively speaking.

I guess STU is going to be a rich mans playground for a long time. While that is the inevitable conclusion, I was really hoping for a few years of creativeand thrifty home brewed cars running up front. Oh well.

The Mini's with small economy minded turbos and 1.6 Motors are getting to 250whp and 300wtq.
I was hoping the same for a couple years of inexpensively running up front. But until someone ties a boat anchor to the back of the WC cars it aint gonna happen. Takes BIG bucks to beat one of those things if they are well driven.

 

[Greg Amy]

But until someone ties a boat anchor to the back of the WC cars it aint gonna happen.

WC guys are complaining the weight we added to allow them to compete is too much. Non-WC competitors are complaining it's not enough.

Sounds like we got it about right...

As an aside, compare the Real Time Acura TSX World Challenge car to what you think PD's organization would do if someone walked up to them with a blank checkbook and said "build me an STU-spec Acura TSX". I think you'd find very little performance difference between the two, considering the extra 300# and the 48mm restrictor the WC car has to have. And, if Real Time took their existing (JDM-spec) 12.5:1 K24A engine out and built up a 12:1 USDM-spec engine within the allowed cam specs (about 50% more valve lift than allowed by WC), removed the intake restrictor and removed the 300# of ballast, I think you'd agree they'd have a pretty stout package.

Be careful what you ask for...

GA

 

[Mrsideways]

WC guys are complaining the weight we added to allow them to compete is too much. Non-WC competitors are complaining it's not enough.

Sounds like we got it about right...

As an aside, compare the Real Time Acura TSX World Challenge car to what you think PD's organization would do if someone walked up to them with a blank checkbook and said "build me an STU-spec Acura TSX". I think you'd find very little performance difference between the two, considering the extra 300# and the 48mm restrictor the WC car has to have. And, if Real Time took their existing (JDM-spec) 12.5:1 K24A engine out and built up a 12:1 USDM-spec engine within the allowed cam specs (about 50% more valve lift than allowed by WC), removed the intake restrictor and removed the 300# of ballast, I think you'd agree they'd have a pretty stout package.

Be careful what you ask for...

GA

But they'd have to run the USDM intake manifold.

 

[Greg Amy]

But they'd have to run the USDM intake manifold.

And the USDM throttle body. But they'd lose the 48mm flat-plate restrictor and 300 pounds of ballast.

I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I don't know this for a fact, but the easiest guess why they're not actually doing it is because they're also using these cars for World Challenge GTS. But mark my words, if STU remains popular it's coming some day.

GA

 

[Z3_GoCar]

sure.. that's fine and dandy. in theory.
Care to hand over the money it's going to take to build that engine? I sure as hell can't afford it.
The ECU and ignition alone would cost 75% of the cost of a JDM-swap. throw in that much more for the NA-SR engine, aftermarket manifold, fabrication, and another $1000 or so for tuning. no thanks. that's my budget for an entire season of racin.

I understand, not many racers out here are flush with cash. But, $1k for tuning is about twice as much as you'll need. I run an older TecII circa '01-'02 world challenge, it cost me $300 for half a day of dyno time and $200 for the tuner, and that was for a tune from scratch. I think it's not as hard or as expensive as you're making it.

Here's a four cylinder version for sale $400

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2036895

 

[Xian]

Not that I really have a dog in the fight anymore but the decision on non-USDM engines is disappointing. I really think the 240 with the non-turbo SR engine would have been a HOT setup. Not overdog hot but "compete with the Honda's and Miata" Hot.

Christian, who, if he had a 240SX, would be awfully tempted to run an illlleeeegul JDM SR20DE anyway.

 

[Matt93SE]

The SR20DE without turbo would be perfect for STL. For STU it just won't make enough power. ~215whp at 2500lbs (because that's about as light as you can get the car under ST rules) vs. 350whp at 3300lbs.

The SR20DET would be a good match against the Mazdaspeed3, A4 turbo, Golf GTI, and etc that are dominating STU in our area..

Talked to a local engine builder today who said it would take roughly $8000 to make the KA24DE put out 225whp-- at 2640lbs. going to keep bugging the CRB about allowing the SR while I run this engine into the ground since I sure as sheit can't afford to compete at that kind of money.

 

[lateapex911]

$8K???? That's actually pretty reasonable, if it's not a grenade with the pin already pulled. Milledge (A known sharp Porsche 4cyl. guru) charged a minimum of $15K for the basic motor rebuild, and then you went to the dyno, and added an ECU. He liked MoTec, IIRC. So, you were talking mid 20s all said and done.

I guarantee that there are SM motors that are more than $8K.
And lot's of IT motors as well. I shudder to think what Autoechnic has spent on it's E46 ITS BMW motors.

 

[Matt93SE]

That doesn't mean it should be the norm.
That's one of the things that REALLY frustrates me with SCCA. You can make a lot more reliable and faster car for a lot cheaper if some of the rules weren't stuck in the stone ages. up until about last year, Prod guys were required to run leaded fuel. For anything built in the 90s or newer, you had to build the engine differently speficifcally so it would survive with leaded gas. that's bassackwards, IMO.

Given the fact the average import owner (Honda, Nissan, Audi, VW, Mazda, etc) can build a 350hp engine that will last 100,000 miles for under $5k in his garage, it's just ludicrous that I should be required to spend upwards of $8k to build a 220whp, 100hour engine is ludicrous. The rest of my car has barely cost that much!