So easy, even a caveman can do it!

Its easy to blame others from the outside looking in.

Did some people deserve to fail? Maybe.

Does a incident on one turn at a single defined point on the track that if it had happened 10 feet earlier or later would have never been an incident to the magnitude that it was deserve failure? Probably not.

Does repeated mistakes in the same spot on the track resulting in spins deserve failure? Maybe. Take into account the turn in question is turn 12 after the kink and certain instructors were instructing not on how to take 12 better but how we are still slowing down into the kink and how we should be flat throttle through kink. Since there is so much to win at drivers school ya know?

Drivers schools are there to teach you how to be safe with a secondary goal of also teaching you how to be faster. My racing mentor warned me to ignore advice regarding driving faster and to comfortably learn to drive faster. I appreciated this advice and took it heart realizing many don't have an experienced racing mentor to consult with.

I understand instructors are volunteers too but some care needs to be taken to evaluate if a person just can't drive safely with others or if he is not being taught how to drive safely with others.

By the sounds of the OP, please come out and instruct at schools. If you feel this strongly about improving driver quality contribute your thoughts and ideas to teaching others how to be safe.

-Sean
 
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Chris
First, I was not at this school so it is unrealistic for me to comment on what happened there. I think that if you really think about it you will come to that same realization.

Second, if you sit down and read the GCR, (page 126 2.7.c) you will find that it states that anyone whom has passed two SCCA drivers schools is eligible for regional racing. This means that whether or not the instructor signs them off as "ready to race" if they pass two schools in the two year validity of their novice permit they are allowed to participate in regional racing.

Third, and most important is if you are upset at the quality of the drivers coming out of your region's/division's schools why don't you get involved? It makes zero sense to me why someone will complain about something that occurs in a VOLUNTEER run club when they are unwilling to get involved and do something about it. So rather than sit and say what a shitty job the people running the school did why don't you get into the instructor corp and do something to help make the school better?

Points to consider:
a. SCCA is the only amateur racing club I know of that someone with ZERO track experience can come to a racing school and learn how to race safely.

b. A SCCA school is only as good as its instructor corp and their willingness to share knowlegde and teach the skill involved.

c. How is SCCA club racing going to grow if it remains an "old boy network/ exclusive club"? If we are unwilling to bring in new racers (whom may have limited or no skills) than how are we going to survive as a viable club?

I think JoeG said it best "chill". Or, get involved and help fix the problem (if there is indeed a problem).

Disclaimer, I have been an instructor for my region's driver schools (Washington DC) for the last eight years.
cheers
dave parker
 
ITA_honda said:
That was the only off track excursion he had. Went too wide coming out of turn 13 on the last lap of the Saturday race. Cought the lip between the pavement and grass and it snapped the car to the inside of the track. The driver actually did a very good job of slowing it down (he was probably doing 65-70mph exiting) The exit of 13, pit in, and the grid are all in one general area. When he slid in to the pit/grid area he was doing maybe 15mph?
Click to expand...

That's a hell of a lot of real estate to keep a car going out of control, Greg.

A Mini Cooper sliding at 15 mph is more than enough mass to get someone seriously hurt. Or worse.

Maybe the driver should have been passed on the condition that he go through Mid Ohio's school of performance driving to gain some skid car experience?
 
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I've been instructing at race school for a long time.

Crap like this makes me very very nervous; I don't want to share the track with jerks like this.

Yet I continue to have to. I don't see any explanation here as to why.

Just this weekend my wife was nearly taken out as collateral damage from just such a yahoo, who was signed off on his license thanks to an old-boy network. Last year my teammate was taken out by the same guy.

It's a lot easier to catch them BEFORE they leave school, rather than correct the errors afterwards; that's when you get a lament from Stewards that "we can't do anything, he didn't hit anyone" or "it was a racing incident..."

Video proof doesn't help.

Chillin' out isn't gonna fix my cars. Getting jokers like this off the track - or, more to the point, keeping them from getting on it - will remove one big source of damage.
 
Vaughn
Did you or your wife protest the actions of this other driver?
That is the first step in the process to get rid of these type of people.
Yes, no one wants to be "that guy" but you have to stand up for what you think is right.
If your protest was not upheld or ignored then you need to keep protesting. Or get some new stewards.


cheers
dave parker
 
Sounds to me like there's more than the initial story says as far as what happened.

At a license school, instructors should NOT be pushing guys to drive faster. They should be pushing the guys to drive clean lines and to learn how to deal with traffic. for the guys that are consistently hitting the line and dealing with traffic, then and only then should the instructor work with the student on speeding up.

I haven't instructed at a race school, but I've instructed at DEs off and on for a few years. that's my philosophy- get the guy around the track SAFELY first. get the line down and braking points and basic driving technique. (get your hand off the damn shifter and on the wheel!) once they've got a good grasp of how to do that, then I work on better- later & harder- braking and carrying a bit of speed through the corner.

But that's just me. I've had instructors jump in my car in the early days of my DE life and tell me "you can take that corner flat" when I was 1000% certain that was beyond the limits of physics.


As for licensing procedure, each day at a double school counts for "one school". they obtain two sanction numbers for the school. Two days of school and you can obtain a novice license, which lets you get to a regional race.
Two "successfully completed" regional races on a novice permit nets you a regional license.

So you could go to a thurs-fai school and get your novice permit. double regional on Sat and Sun, and you walk away from the weekend with a regional license.

I did my school last July or so, then did six regionals in Oct, Nov, Jan (we race all year in TX. yaay.) so get my national license in time for the division's first Natl race of the year.


___________
There are other accredited private schools (like MSR-Houston's race school, Hallett/Stephens Bros Racing, Bondurant school, etc that will give you a regional license after a 3 day school.
 
dave parker said:
Vaughn
Did you or your wife protest the actions of this other driver?
That is the first step in the process to get rid of these type of people.
Yes, no one wants to be "that guy" but you have to stand up for what you think is right.
If your protest was not upheld or ignored then you need to keep protesting. Or get some new stewards.


cheers
dave parker
Click to expand...

They needed to - yes, but no-one did. I agree, it clearly needs to happen. Two stewards were consulted right after the race - but as usual talked it down...

I predict paperwork next weekend. Hopefully it's only paperwork, and no body work.
 
To ALL:
NEVER let a steward talk you out of filing a protest against another driver for on track behavior!!!!!!!!!

It solves nothing and fixes nothing. File the protest. If the operating steward refuses to hear the protest get the Chief Steward. If the C.S. refuses get the Chairman of the Stewards of the Meet involved.

The only reason that a steward will try to talk you out of a protest is because they are being lazy. If they try to talk you out of a protest they should not be a steward, period.

SCCA has some good stewards and some outstanding stewards, we also have some stewards whom have outlived their usefulness and need to find something else to do.

If you are upset about another drivers on track behavior and do not file a protest, keep your complaints to yourself because you are the only one to blame.
The protest process is there to help weed out those whom do not belong on the track in a wheel to wheel situation.


cheers
dave parker
 
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Matt93SE said:
At a license school, instructors should NOT be pushing guys to drive faster.
Click to expand...

Sorry that is wrong, there are a number of skills that need to be demonstrated in order to race. You need to be able to drive the line. You need to be able to race off line. You need situational awareness. You need car control. You definitely need to turn competitive times. If you are lacking in any of these areas the instructors need to coach in that area.
Allowing students to trundle around at 9/10 pace does not make for an accurate evaluation.
 
Matt
Dick is correct. A student at a racing school has to be handled somewhat differently than a DE student.
I have had several students over the years who have approached the school with the mindset that "I am going to circulate around the track, stay out of trouble, not race anyone, and come away with a license". This is easily handled when I ask them pointedly, Do you want to PASS this school? If they say yes then I tell them that I have to see them RACE.
I have to see you pass people, I have to see you give racing room, I have to see you push yourself to your limit (not the car's limit which is usually well beyond most drivers at a school). I also have to see you use good judgement.

A student that shows up for a SCCA drivers school in a car that is not prepared well, with good tires (not used up junk), and competent crew is wasting their time.

Questions?

cheers
dave parker
 
Dave

Second, if you sit down and read the GCR, (page 126 2.7.c) you will find that it states that anyone whom has passed two SCCA drivers schools is eligible for regional racing. This means that whether or not the instructor signs them off as "ready to race" if they pass two schools in the two year validity of their novice permit they are allowed to participate in regional racing.
Click to expand...

In order for a Novice Permit holder to be eligible for regional racing, he must have six hours of on-track instruction, complete two schools with a Satisfactory rating and obtain the Drivers School Chief Steward's signature on the inside of the front cover in the Completion of Drivers School Requirements section. I have seen students who have completed two schools satisfactorily who are deemed 'not ready to race' by the instructors / Chief Steward (an example would be the 'just drive around' student who does not get up to race speed). Those students must attend a third school to demonstrate proficiency. In my experience stewarding Drivers Schools at Summit Point, Pocono and NJMP, the steward almost always follows the advice of the instructors. So yes, the instructors do have control over student drivers.

Terry
 
The first thing I tell my students in the morning meeting before we do ANYthing is that, in the end, I will or will not sign them off if i don't feel comfortable racing with them. And I tell them that involves attitude, preparedness, judgement and speed.

At the end of the day (or nearing it) I've told guys, "Sorry, you might want to race, but trust me, you will wish you weren't out there if i sign you off. So, I'm going to suggest you hit some track days and another school. Your issues are: xyz".

Then they get "Not ready to race, needs another school minimum" in their book. IF the Big cheese wants to fail them for the school or pass them with that notation, I don't care, as long as they don't get a provisional.

At NER schools we sit in a room and discuss each student. Sometimes it's "No way, and i told him so" and others agree. Sometimes it's "he had zero experience but was perfect all day long, did exactly what he was told and turned fast laps including off line passes, he's a natural, give him a provisional". Each case is discussed, other instructors weigh in, and the pressure from the Grand Poobah is always "If you will race with him, and others feel thats reasonable, then fine." I've never seen a guy passed because he's somebodies buddy.
 
At a license school, instructors should NOT be pushing guys to drive faster.
Click to expand...

I also disagree. A HPDE is totally different. At a HPDE, the goal is to instruct students from the beginning and slowly work their way up. It's truly the drivers education part. At a comp school, the goal IMO is more of a "is this person ready?" I'd much rather see how they react in situations when there's some red mist here, than when on the first race event. Yes, I too tell people who talk to me about the schools not to cave into the "drive beyond their abilities" but also say the same for their races. Push them, see how they react. They respond and ask for help, give it to them.
 
Matt93SE said:
As for licensing procedure, each day at a double school counts for "one school". they obtain two sanction numbers for the school. Two days of school and you can obtain a novice license, which lets you get to a regional race.
Two "successfully completed" regional races on a novice permit nets you a regional license.

So you could go to a thurs-fai school and get your novice permit. double regional on Sat and Sun, and you walk away from the weekend with a regional license.

I did my school last July or so, then did six regionals in Oct, Nov, Jan (we race all year in TX. yaay.) so get my national license in time for the division's first Natl race of the year.


___________
There are other accredited private schools (like MSR-Houston's race school, Hallett/Stephens Bros Racing, Bondurant school, etc that will give you a regional license after a 3 day school.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about a 1/2 day of instruction on Thursday, driving on Friday and Saturday, then double dipping on Sunday and being signed off with a full Regional License.
 
I see your points and yes, I agree. I was looking at it from a slightly different perspective and thinking of a more 'remedial student' like this joker that seems to want to spin continually.

those guys need to slow down and get help finding a safe way around the track before they need help dealing with traffic AND getting around the track. (and honestly a racing school isn't the place for them if they can't find their own way around a track).

But yes, the point of a racing school is to learn how to deal with traffic- at speed. You need to be able to make passes on and off the line and deal with spins and near-spins. If you can't keep the car on the track at this point, you gots problems.

Z3_GoCar said:
I'm talking about a 1/2 day of instruction on Thursday, driving on Friday and Saturday, then double dipping on Sunday and being signed off with a full Regional License.
Click to expand...
Umm yeah, that don't happen- or shouldn't. There was a young lady that went through my school and entered both SM and ITA at the first regional weekend. She had several 'issues' and spun at least 2-3 times in each race, finishing last/near last in both races on both days.

When I went in to get my novice permit signed, the CS looked at my permit and finishing position (3rd overall, 2nd in class in small bore on Sat; 2nd overall, 1st in class on Sun with moderate traffic), signed it, and handed it back to me. The other novice then spent 45 min getting 'debriefed' with him and he refused to sign off on her for either race and told her to run another weekend before he'd sign off on it.

Her dad (a veteran SM racer) then complained that she finished 4 races that weekend and did better on sunday, and she should get signed off on at least two. CS said "nope. one sanction number, one race per day. That's two chances. she sucked on sat and was marginally better on Sun. come back next month and try again."

The good thing is she's doing MUCH better and actually outran me in a rain race (until she spun 2 laps later and got stuck in the mud!)
 
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I'm talking about a 1/2 day of instruction on Thursday, driving on Friday and Saturday, then double dipping on Sunday and being signed off with a full Regional License.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I care (although it should be a novice permit IMO). We have certain standards, abilities, and decision making that a person needs to meet. If a person has 600 HPDEs, went to 3 pro racing schools, and at the comp school doesn't meet the set criteria - sorry, no go. If this is the first time out on track and they do meet that criteria, pass, here's your license. Seems like the challenge for some regions is not adhering to what a person should be capable of out on track, not that it happens on one weekend versus two.

Regions are also in a tough spot that we need more people being involved and the economy is playing a factor in all of this. It's a balancing act from their perspective. I do agree that I don't want to go wheel-to-wheel with people who are not ready and understand the potential consequences.
 
How about those that come from skippy or somewhere else signed off for a Regional, if not National license?

And telling someone "they can take X corner FLAT" is the biggest kiss of death! I speak from experience lol besides you work on corner exit speed first...
 
Matt93SE said:
...Her dad (a veteran SM racer) then complained that she finished 4 races that weekend and did better on sunday, and she should get signed off on at least two. CS said "nope. one sanction number, one race per day. That's two chances. she sucked on sat and was marginally better on Sun. come back next month and try again."
Click to expand...

Dad oughtta be ashamed.

He's not gonna be riding along with her out on track making decisions for her; he shouldn't be playing lawyer/advocate to the Stewards either.

Kudos to your CS for sticking to his guns and doing the right thing.
 
924Guy said:
He's not gonna be riding along with her out on track making decisions for her; he shouldn't be playing lawyer/advocate to the Stewards either.
Click to expand...

[tangent]
You should hear dad from the grandstands on the radio. This was at her first race, so I hope it's better now, but....
We were lined up on the pace lap and my dad was next to hers in the stands...
"Okay, you should be in third gear now. get closer to the guy in front of you. right on his bumper.. don't hit him! now get closer! gREEN GREEN GREEN FLOOR IT! NOW SHIFT TO FOURTH! Pull down to the inside to get around this guy"

... and right about then she spins off in T1 because she was too busy listening to the radio and not looking out her windshield.

uhhhh, dad.. back off. if she can't get a start on her own, she ain't gonna be able to race.
(I've run with and without radios.. all I want to know on the radio is where the yellows are and if I'm gaining on the guy in front of me. the rest of the time, SHADDUP and let me drive!)
[/tangent]
 
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I'm not a parent, so i have no right saying ANYthing. But that hasn't always stopped me. A trait I see too often is the blind eye parents turn to their kids. Or maybe they view them with rose colored glasses. Not every...or even most parents, but certainly some seem to have an internal switch flipped when it comes their own DNA.

(My girlfriends a teacher, and the stories and defenses some parents put up is astounding. Face it lady, your kids a shit, needs a good military school. Stop blaming everything BUT the kid when every other kid is doing just fine in the same environment)
 
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