So, what TRULY matters...?

300Z
Type R
S2000 (except 1)

Only cars I see in the class that are sweetheart weights are the E36 and Porsche. I am on the outside looking in now Josh because it is now very clear the majority of the ITAC will keep the status quo. Too many ITR BMW guys on the ITAC to be objective. ............Others will block any and all attempts to get it right because they like it how it is.

Steve, you have had some solid and positive posts and comments in the past, but on this one, I have to throw a red flag. I'm pretty involved in the ITAC stuff. So much so that I even tried to hunt you down in Lime Rock, knowing full well you could give me an earful (or worse) on the RX-8 deal, to discuss it and ITAC stuff.And I have to tell you that when I read the above, I stopped, and thought, "How can ONE guy be a majority? And he's so quiet!". Well, turns out that I forgot Josh even drove a BMW for a second! THAT"s how often his car comes up. And Marshall? Marshall is one of the guys that does his job, yet isn't very noisy about it. As Josh pointed out, the work was done pre Josh involvement.

I too looked at the ITR list, and thought about which car was the one for me. I settled on the 944S2. Then I priced out the mods to the motor, and after a call to Milledge, decided it wasn't such a sweetheart deal afterall! To build a serious race car of any marque is $$$, but that 944 is $$$$$. THAT'S why the E36 is popular. Looks good on paper, and you can buy one built for pennies on the dollar. Duh, unless you're a newbie, you know thats the smart money way to go.

Same for the S2000. Your process is broken in ITR and you know it. Now lets see what you do about it. Not personal guys, just the way I see it unfolding until now.

Pissed off but still :D

The RX-8 has issues, absolutely. And I've gone on record both on the committee and here that the S2000 is too heavy. But, it got the lowest factor in IT when it was classed. And the RX-8? Well, to be fair, you HAVE to admit the car is the subject of a lot of industry controversy. Is it the ITACs fault the factory ratings are FUBAR? In the end those pro RX-8 and those con RX-8 are pissed, so at least we struck a balance. Trust me, I am a Mazda guy, I had the RX8 in my sights. But I see WHY it ended up the way it did.

Funny how just a year or two ago, there were cries of foul from the BMW guys swearing on bibles that Andy was the Dark Lord and Mazda was in our pockets. Now you say it's "nothing personal", but when my committee is being accused of being biased, and classing cars for personal gain, I have a hard time seeing that claim as being altruistic.
 
First, understand please that there were *zero* BMW drivers on the ITAC when the weights of all of the original ITR cars were assigned. None. I personally didn't even know about ITR until after it was practically a done deal. In fact, one of the reasons I was told I'd be a good fit for the committee was because it would be good to have some BMW representation and knowledge because the BMW drivers in IT, in general, felt persecuted. Now you are saying that the BMW drivers have all of the control of the ITAC. I think the rest of the ITAC would agree that we (all both of us) don't. And we don't outnumber the Mazda drivers, BTW. And I'm an ex-Mazda driver. Mazda was so good to me that I actually feel guilty not driving one, I almost feel like I'm playing for the other team. But none of that has anything to do with the way weights get assigned, there's no personal bias.

Second of all, I personally know of at least two built S2000s, one 300ZX, and one Type R. Compared to other cars listed in the class, that's AT LEAST average, if not more than average.



You know as well as I do that the reason that there are so many more E36s running right now is because there were plenty of IT-legal cars already in the SCCA community at the launch of the class. That can't be said for any of the cars you listed. It's unrealistic to expect anything that wasn't already listed in IT to match that.



I never said we got the weight right for ultimate competitiveness. All I said was that we got the weight right with respect to the process. I'm relatively new (newer than you) to this process business, and I personally think there's a lot of room for improvement. But unfortunately, it's not possible to change the process without doing another huge reassignment of all of the weights of everything listed ... everything ... and that's too disruptive to do at this point.

Just in case it's not clear, the reason I say that is that because if you change the process mid-stream, then cars that were classed pre-change will not look like cars that were classed post-change, and that sort of inconsistency is worse (yes, in my opinion) than getting some outliers wrong.

In the meantime, we simply have to stick with the process we have. If some cars don't fit the existing process very well, they will just have to wait until the process can be changed.

I personally think that we should change the process to account for torque better. It'll help low-torque high-revvers, and it'll make it easier for us to include low-revving high-torquers like the pony cars as well. But as I said, we can't just change the process mid-stream without another great realignment, and I don't think the community has the intestinal fortitude to put up with that right now, not when most people feel things are better than ever.



Good thing you said that, because the tone sure doesn't come off that way!

Fair enough Josh. and a well written response. I do not sit in on your meetings so have no real world knowledge of those discussions. It is however clear you guys "missed" on a few cars, and are aware it is because the process has some flaws. Many times I hear members state that Dyno numbers have too many variables to be used as evidence yet you take as sacred numbers you have proof are flawed. Numbers from one manufacturer to another are just as unreliable. I understand you have to start somewhere and do the best you can with the information provided. The ITAC has used known data (percent gain in IT trim" both high and low to fix outliers as you call them. The E36 is the poster child for that. It was the main reason the class got started and it does not use a 25% factor. The target for the class is an exception.

It comes down to knowing you have some problems and making a decision:

1. The cars that have "different" characteristics get left out.
2. You do your job and do what it takes to get close with defensible numbers.

You have the ability to use many data sources to get reasonable information on these outliers. You just have to be willing to do it. Comes with the ITAC hat.:happy204:
 
You have the ability to use many data sources to get reasonable information on these outliers. You just have to be willing to do it. Comes with the ITAC hat.:happy204:


True enough....

BUT...those protocols need to be established for those numbers to be accepted, and I think you'll agree that any organization needs to be very wary of "proof" supplied by proponents of the action, even when the supplier is of known integrity.
 
... just watch people start asking for allowances to their car because of an upright windshield creating poor aero, or whatever else they can come up with. ...

Fair point. That's why it's important that the factors under consideration be clearly defined, documented, and made public. There's currently NO allowance in the process for "aero" but you're right that people - even ITAC members - get sucked into thinking about things like that. We can't afford to go there.

K
 
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True enough....

BUT...those protocols need to be established for those numbers to be accepted, and I think you'll agree that any organization needs to be very wary of "proof" supplied by proponents of the action, even when the supplier is of known integrity.

Very true. It is available from numerous sources that have more to gain from inflated numbers. I would be happy if you even used those for a reality check.:D
 
Fair point. That's why it's important that the factors under consideration be clearly defined, documented, and made public. There's currently NO allowance in the process for "aero" but you're right that people - even ITAC members - get sucked into thinking about things like that. We can't afford to go there.

K

which is why i think that we might be getting to specific/granular/elaborate with the model......IF the requests made here were applied.

so now do you understand "where i come up with this stuff?"
 
And I've gone on record both on the committee and here that the S2000 is too heavy. But, it got the lowest factor in IT when it was classed.

Just because it got the lowest factor doesn't mean it was classed properly even within the process. I guess I just don't understand this one.

For the RX8, and this is probably a dumb idea, could one or two ITAC members put a stock RX8 on a dyno to get a better comfort level with the power numbers (any related costs to do this put aside)?
 
Well, Dave, it's been done, just not with the RX-8. It was unprecedented, and it cost me personally hundreds in lost revenue and I got lots of heat from a client, and I put cash out for it too,.....and..

....and the guys getting the model dyno-ed STILL said i was getting Mazda money, and felt I was biased, and bla bla bla...

The issues that arise from that are numerous and onerous.

To name but a few: Who's dyno? Which kind? How do we KNOW the drive train isn't a contributing factor? (If we use a chassis dyno) And if it is, do we care? or not? How do we know the stock examples are truly representative? Untampered with? Who pays? Who does it?


See, these are issues that would need to be resolved, and protocols created that would be generic in nature, and followed in every case that came up..

Then, how do we decide to test a car? What triggers such a test? Who decides? (You can hear member requests coming in now)

At this point, the governments require manufacturers to test their cars under strict guidelines. Those numbers are pretty well scrutinized by lots of organizations far more powerful than us. Just because we "suspect" something is amiss, we can't be too quick to react. There needs to be a preponderance of evidence to back up any suspicion.

Now, I do think it's possible, and trust me, i would LOVE to have solid numbers that confirmed stock hp, but, I also see the need to have strict guidelines and procedures to attain those numbers.

And thats where I think it gets cumbersome. If we could have a tech dept in Topeka that could obtain unmolested stock versions and dyno them, I'd be all for it. Ideally, the dyno test would be out of car, and done to SAE standards. Otherwise, we get into debates on the math, and so on.

Let's say you have a car you spent 50 grand building and racing. What sort of evidence would YOU want to see us use to class a car that you'll run against? (That's you know will be built to the nines by one of the best shops in the business, and campaigned by pro level drivers)
 
Jake, your assessment about dyno testing is correct. However, I feel that a chassis dynos will take care of the problem. If national could use ONE chassis dyno to test cars (perhaps to SAE type rules) I think we could get a good handle on potential. After all, we are not racing dynos....we are racing on track.

To address "what truly matters", for me, is to feel with reasonable certainly that I have chosen a car that can be competitive in class. With the changes in classification/weight in the last years, I feel a much better sense of parity within the IT classes. Chuck
 
I think the best thing the ITAC can do is keep the status quo. Stability is a good thing. Monkeying with the process now will just hurt that. Is it clear that to account for torque you really need the full power curve and factor in gearing? We can't even get agreement on a single power number for the Rx-8, imagine the controversy on full dyno data (not that they're obtainable anyway). The process works, leave it alone! Sure, not every car will be competitive, but everyone has an equal shot at picking a good one today. If the process is stable, then that car shouldn't suddenly be far outclassed by some new car later on.

As for the E36 in ITS, I never said it met the process. We picked that car ten years ago because we thought it was the best one we could build for the class, and ran it for several years without significant harassment. My argument was that the comp adjustments and the "great realignment" weren't allowed by the rules. I was fighting for stability then just as I am now. One of my major complaints was against all the whiners who said the car was too fast. The vast majority of those folks either joined IT or built new cars long after the E36 was eligible. If they thought it was so fast why didn't they build one? You better believe I'll fight hard to avoid this whole situation all over again in ITR.

Was the great realignment a good thing? Probably so, but now that we have the process we need to leave it alone. Otherwise there's no hope for stability.

Nothing personal Steve :rolleyes:, but if you want to complain about the numbers you need to talk to Mazda.
 
I think the best thing the ITAC can do is keep the status quo. Stability is a good thing. Monkeying with the process now will just hurt that. Is it clear that to account for torque you really need the full power curve and factor in gearing? We can't even get agreement on a single power number for the Rx-8, imagine the controversy on full dyno data (not that they're obtainable anyway). The process works, leave it alone! Sure, not every car will be competitive, but everyone has an equal shot at picking a good one today. If the process is stable, then that car shouldn't suddenly be far outclassed by some new car later on.

As for the E36 in ITS, I never said it met the process. We picked that car ten years ago because we thought it was the best one we could build for the class, and ran it for several years without significant harassment. My argument was that the comp adjustments and the "great realignment" weren't allowed by the rules. I was fighting for stability then just as I am now. One of my major complaints was against all the whiners who said the car was too fast. The vast majority of those folks either joined IT or built new cars long after the E36 was eligible. If they thought it was so fast why didn't they build one? You better believe I'll fight hard to avoid this whole situation all over again in ITR.

Was the great realignment a good thing? Probably so, but now that we have the process we need to leave it alone. Otherwise there's no hope for stability.

Nothing personal Steve :rolleyes:, but if you want to complain about the numbers you need to talk to Mazda.

Stability for your overdog--I understood it then. Same is true now for the E36 and Porsche VS the RX8 at the proposed weight. Your advantage is safe again. You took advantage of BS low numbers for the E36 and so be it. Fight on. All 2 of you in the Southeast.:blink:
 
I get busy at work and go away for a couple days and there's 3 pages of discussion to sift though...

Not to go too far off topic, but whether you call it an adder, a PCA, a competition adjustment, or a thing-a-ma-jig, it's a weight adjustment. Calling it something different if it's done when the car is classed vs after the car is classed is a matter of semantics. If a car is classed using the 25% power increase and then later it's determined that the car can actually get 30% and the car is re-run through the process using 30%. Is that a PCA or an adder? Doesn't make a difference what you call it, it's a weight adjustment.

Use the minimum amount of "subjectivity" needed to initially weight the car at what is thought to be a competitive weight and document everything. Adjust the weight in the future if it appears it was missed by a lot. I think this is where the ITAC is headed. I would also add that there should be no "special circumstances". I.e. the SM crossover cage issue.

The really fun part is how and when do you determine if the car's weight should be adjusted. But we already have another thread for that discussion.

David
 
Since some posters seem to be telling me what my position is, even after I tried very hard to not have one here...

I'm frustrated by the strategies being applied to argue what I think is a completely reasonable solution to our "process problem," by invoking counters to positions that I am NOT proposing (e.g., blind adherence to one simplistic formula for all cars, the addition of an endless list of factors to a psycho-complex process, or entertaining repeated requests for minute changes to specification weights).

So here - as simply as my addled mind can manage - is what I'm arguing for:

** Start with the current process, exactly as the ITAC currently applies it (we have written but not completely fleshed out guidelines).

** Document any and all power multipliers that are in play, by describing what physical attributes warrant them (e.g., '70's era cars with smog pumps and carbs get 1.xx; OBDI/OBDII FI 8 valve cars get 1.xx, etc.) If the ITAC thinks more are necessary, add them. This list would likely be 1.25 unless (whatever)...

** Document guidelines for any and all adders that are in play, also by the physical attributes that trigger their application. FWD is binary, others will be harder. If gearboxes are on the table, provide example ratios of what makes a 'box "good." How big are brakes that deserve an adder? Document it. NOTE here that I am NOT advocating or the inclusion of any more factors.

** If it ain't in on the lists above, it doesn't get included in the figuring. If we discover some new thing (hey, how about ABS?) then adders/subtractors or new multipliers (the Prius, you know) get listed and used. There's no ad hoc addition of fudge factors or new variables, tied to individual make/model examples.

** When a new car comes into the system, its pertinent attributes are documented (there's talk of creating a new IT-specific VTS) and the math is completed. STOP. Do not second guess, do not re-run the math with different factors to see if a more comfortable/palatable solution pops out. Do not buy what individuals with vested interests are selling as "real world data" on individual cases.

** Document the assumptions and math for posterity (including the date), publish the math, go racing. The documented examples will help inform the standards used to apply tougher adders, since we'll have something to compare to.

** When a request to re-examine an existing car comes in, run exactly the same process. The only difference is that it MIGHT be reasonable to have a tolerance, within which existing weights are left alone if they are "close enough," because there are costs ($$ and otherwise) associated with any change. This (of course) has to be recorded so it gets used consistently.

** THe ITAC might trigger the process ourselves, if we identify an anomalous listing. I don't believe at this point that it's truly necessary to do a Second Great Realignment. Arguments that it's "all or nothing" honestly strike me as somewhat hyperbolic.

That's it. Done.

** We won't have an ongoing flood of requests to fix cars that have been through the process, because as soon as members understand that we've documented the process and outcomes so they get the same answer over and over, they'll give up right quick.

** We aren't trying to be "too smart." In fact this system's got a lot less hubris built into it than does the most subjective applications of the process that have happened over the years. I don't believe we can subjectively get closer to "right" than this process will achieve because "what we know" is too suspect.

** We can - without concern - publish this process to the membership. Since we aren't making anything up as we go, we have repeatable. Since weights get assigned to attributes rather than cars, we have defensible. Since we can communicate processes to the membership, we have transparent.

** The ITAC would lose some degree of control to apply their judgment. I don't care. The value added in terms of trust and reduced conflict is worth it.

** Yes - we are still going to have some people say, "Smogged up POS Pintos, Vegas, and their ilk should be at 1.xx +.10. "Thank you for your input." Yes - we will still have some issues where categories include ONE car (see also, "Rotaries"). The ITAC will just have to explain - a few times, perhaps - that it's gotten as close as it believes reasonable. If TRULY compelling evidence becomes available, the ITAC has the power to change a factor but we'd be well advised to have some standards for evidential quality for that step. We also better be DAMNED sure about the change because it will throw past classifications into inconsistencies with those done post-change. This kind of thing should be VERY rare. If they ever happen, they should be documented as changes and dated.

We members of the ITAC would have to hang onto the conviction that we're doing the right thing and have the stones to explain it and stand by it publicly.

Argue what I've proposed but please stop telling me that it's stupid to do something that I've never suggested.

K
 
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Kirk, this is PERFECT. Write this up, or having someone write it up (I will take a stab if you want) and have the ITAC "adopt it" as the official PROCESS for going forward. Official as in written down, on paper, documented and accessible to all membership. The rules of car classification.

I'm serious. And if you guys want me to take a stab at writing up a first draft, I will.

Lot of thought went into that (Kirk's post). Much appreciated.

Since some posters seem to be telling me what my position is, even after I tried very hard to not have one here...

I'm frustrated by the strategies being applied to argue what I think is a completely reasonable solution to our "process problem," by invoking counters to positions that I am NOT proposing (e.g., blind adherence to one simplistic formula for all cars, the addition of an endless list of factors to a psycho-complex process, or entertaining repeated requests for minute changes to specification weights).

So here - as simply as my addled mind can manage - is what I'm arguing for:

** Start with the current process, exactly as the ITAC currently applies it (we have written but not completely fleshed out guidelines).

** Document any and all power multipliers that are in play, by describing what physical attributes warrant them (e.g., '70's era cars with smog pumps and carbs get 1.xx; OBDI/OBDII FI 8 valve cars get 1.xx, etc.) If the ITAC thinks more are necessary, add them. This list would likely be 1.25 unless (whatever)...

** Document guidelines for any and all adders that are in play, also by the physical attributes that trigger their application. FWD is binary, others will be harder. If gearboxes are on the table, provide example ratios of what makes a 'box "good." How big are brakes that deserve an adder? Document it. NOTE here that I am NOT advocating or the inclusion of any more factors.

** If it ain't in on the lists above, it doesn't get included in the figuring. If we discover some new thing (hey, how about ABS?) then adders/subtractors or new multipliers (the Prius, you know) get listed and used. There's no ad hoc addition of fudge factors or new variables, tied to individual make/model examples.

** When a new car comes into the system, its pertinent attributes are documented (there's talk of creating a new IT-specific VTS) and the math is completed. STOP. Do not second guess, do not re-run the math with different factors to see if a more comfortable/palatable solution pops out. Do not buy what individuals with vested interests are selling as "real world data" on individual cases.

** Document the assumptions and math for posterity (including the date), publish the math, go racing. The documented examples will help inform the standards used to apply tougher adders, since we'll have something to compare to.

** When a request to re-examine an existing car comes in, run exactly the same process. The only difference is that it MIGHT be reasonable to have a tolerance, within which existing weights are left alone if they are "close enough," because there are costs ($$ and otherwise) associated with any change. This (of course) has to be recorded so it gets used consistently.

** THe ITAC might trigger the process ourselves, if we identify an anomalous listing. I don't believe at this point that it's truly necessary to do a Second Great Realignment. Arguments that it's "all or nothing" honestly strike me as somewhat hyperbolic.

That's it. Done.

** We won't have an ongoing flood of requests to fix cars that have been through the process, because as soon as members understand that we've documented the process and outcomes so they get the same answer over and over, they'll give up right quick.

** We aren't trying to be "too smart." In fact this system's got a lot less hubris built into it than does the most subjective applications of the process that have happened over the years. I don't believe we can subjectively get closer to "right" than this process will achieve because "what we know" is too suspect.

** We can - without concern - publish this process to the membership. Since we aren't making anything up as we go, we have repeatable. Since weights get assigned to attributes rather than cars, we have defensible. Since we can communicate processes to the membership, we have transparent.

** The ITAC would lose some degree of control to apply their judgment. I don't care. The value added in terms of trust and reduced conflict is worth it.

** Yes - we are still going to have some people say, "Smogged up POS Pintos, Vegas, and their ilk should be at 1.xx +.10. "Thank you for your input." Yes - we will still have some issues where categories include ONE car (see also, "Rotaries"). The ITAC will just have to explain - a few times, perhaps - that it's gotten as close as it believes reasonable. If TRULY compelling evidence becomes available, the ITAC has the power to change a factor but we'd be well advised to have some standards for evidential quality for that step. We also better be DAMNED sure about the change because it will throw past classifications into inconsistencies with those done post-change. This kind of thing should be VERY rare. If they ever happen, they should be documented as changes and dated.

We members of the ITAC would have to hang onto the conviction that we're doing the right thing and have the stones to explain it and stand by it publicly.

Argue what I've proposed but please stop telling me that it's stupid to do something that I've never suggested.

K
 
That is simply the best thing I have ever heard as far as rules for club racing go.

I don't know what more people could ask for.

Since some posters seem to be telling me what my position is, even after I tried very hard to not have one here...

I'm frustrated by the strategies being applied to argue what I think is a completely reasonable solution to our "process problem," by invoking counters to positions that I am NOT proposing (e.g., blind adherence to one simplistic formula for all cars, the addition of an endless list of factors to a psycho-complex process, or entertaining repeated requests for minute changes to specification weights).

So here - as simply as my addled mind can manage - is what I'm arguing for:

** Start with the current process, exactly as the ITAC currently applies it (we have written but not completely fleshed out guidelines).

** Document any and all power multipliers that are in play, by describing what physical attributes warrant them (e.g., '70's era cars with smog pumps and carbs get 1.xx; OBDI/OBDII FI 8 valve cars get 1.xx, etc.) If the ITAC thinks more are necessary, add them. This list would likely be 1.25 unless (whatever)...

** Document guidelines for any and all adders that are in play, also by the physical attributes that trigger their application. FWD is binary, others will be harder. If gearboxes are on the table, provide example ratios of what makes a 'box "good." How big are brakes that deserve an adder? Document it. NOTE here that I am NOT advocating or the inclusion of any more factors.

** If it ain't in on the lists above, it doesn't get included in the figuring. If we discover some new thing (hey, how about ABS?) then adders/subtractors or new multipliers (the Prius, you know) get listed and used. There's no ad hoc addition of fudge factors or new variables, tied to individual make/model examples.

** When a new car comes into the system, its pertinent attributes are documented (there's talk of creating a new IT-specific VTS) and the math is completed. STOP. Do not second guess, do not re-run the math with different factors to see if a more comfortable/palatable solution pops out. Do not buy what individuals with vested interests are selling as "real world data" on individual cases.

** Document the assumptions and math for posterity (including the date), publish the math, go racing. The documented examples will help inform the standards used to apply tougher adders, since we'll have something to compare to.

** When a request to re-examine an existing car comes in, run exactly the same process. The only difference is that it MIGHT be reasonable to have a tolerance, within which existing weights are left alone if they are "close enough," because there are costs ($$ and otherwise) associated with any change. This (of course) has to be recorded so it gets used consistently.

** THe ITAC might trigger the process ourselves, if we identify an anomalous listing. I don't believe at this point that it's truly necessary to do a Second Great Realignment. Arguments that it's "all or nothing" honestly strike me as somewhat hyperbolic.

That's it. Done.

** We won't have an ongoing flood of requests to fix cars that have been through the process, because as soon as members understand that we've documented the process and outcomes so they get the same answer over and over, they'll give up right quick.

** We aren't trying to be "too smart." In fact this system's got a lot less hubris built into it than does the most subjective applications of the process that have happened over the years. I don't believe we can subjectively get closer to "right" than this process will achieve because "what we know" is too suspect.

** We can - without concern - publish this process to the membership. Since we aren't making anything up as we go, we have repeatable. Since weights get assigned to attributes rather than cars, we have defensible. Since we can communicate processes to the membership, we have transparent.

** The ITAC would lose some degree of control to apply their judgment. I don't care. The value added in terms of trust and reduced conflict is worth it.

** Yes - we are still going to have some people say, "Smogged up POS Pintos, Vegas, and their ilk should be at 1.xx +.10. "Thank you for your input." Yes - we will still have some issues where categories include ONE car (see also, "Rotaries"). The ITAC will just have to explain - a few times, perhaps - that it's gotten as close as it believes reasonable. If TRULY compelling evidence becomes available, the ITAC has the power to change a factor but we'd be well advised to have some standards for evidential quality for that step. We also better be DAMNED sure about the change because it will throw past classifications into inconsistencies with those done post-change. This kind of thing should be VERY rare. If they ever happen, they should be documented as changes and dated.

We members of the ITAC would have to hang onto the conviction that we're doing the right thing and have the stones to explain it and stand by it publicly.

Argue what I've proposed but please stop telling me that it's stupid to do something that I've never suggested.

K
 
The reason I am excited about what you are saying Kirk is some of the things in ITR do not make sense to me if I could see the math and what you guys thought maybe it would.

Example:
Integra Type R --------- 195HP - 130TQ - 1.8L 2535lbs
Acura RSX Type S ------- 200HP - 142TQ - 2.0L 2665lbs
Honda Prelude (non SH) - 200HP - 156TQ - 2.2L 2640lbs

I actually think all these weights seem very balanced for the cars but would be very curious to see the math on how each cars weight was determined.
 
Great post Kirk. Much concern voiced is for the future when there will have been turnover in the ITAC. There is a fair amount of trust in the current group. It would be great if the current ITAC could formalize, document and publish the process before this inevitable change in the makeup of the group changes.
 
Great post Kirk. Much concern voiced is for the future when there will have been turnover in the ITAC. There is a fair amount of trust in the current group. It would be great if the current ITAC could formalize, document and publish the process before this inevitable change in the makeup of the group changes.

!!AMEN!! Publish the process!!:smilie_pokal:
 
Kirk,

Exactly and absolutely correct.

I'll also volunteer to parse any language to make sure that these unmechanical eyes read the same phrases and numbers that lock us all into a predictable and repeatable future.

Looking forward to a published process,

DZ

** Start with the current process, exactly as the ITAC currently applies it

** Document any and all power multipliers that are in play, by describing what physical attributes warrant them

** Document guidelines

** If it ain't in on the lists above, it doesn't get included in the figuring.

** When a new car comes into the system, its pertinent attributes are documented (there's talk of creating a new IT-specific VTS)

** Document the assumptions and math for posterity

** When a request to re-examine an existing car comes in, run exactly the same process.

** THe ITAC might trigger the process ourselves, if we identify an anomalous listing.

That's it. Done.

K
 
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