Split Starts & Stewards...

RSTPerformance

RSTPerformance

New member
I have a couple questions...

First, do you like split starts?

Second, how many of you have tried to get the stewards to have a split start without sucess?

I love split starts and I know I have tried to get split starts for race groups as a driver, as crew, and as a steward. It seems that in most (not all) races I go to stewards don't want to deal with either the complexity or the changes in schedule and generally deny any thoughts of a request.

I figured out a way to beat the system!!! Have the suplimental regulations that are written by the comp board include split starts. If this is done, the stewards have to deal with it. I actually say that with a good tone... Basically if the stewards know ahead of time then they can build it in to the weekends plan and will not have a problem making it happen. I presented this thought to have the supps include a schedule that specifies that certain groups will have split starts. Examples include seperating out classes such as SRF and SM. Also seperating IT grouped classes such a. ITB & ITS/ITR. The thought was well recieved. So this brings up my third question...

How would you word the Supps to specify split starts?

Raymond "I need to get further away from my dad on the track!" Blethen
 
Nobody likes surprises - particularly if they have a lot of balls in the air and people pulling them in different directions with requests.

If you want a split start, start asking about it early so folks can plan around it. The worst situation is when someone goes all ad hoc on our butts, and changes some standard practice at the last minute. That's guaranteed to create a problem and in this game, those problems can get costly.

Personally, I think they're crap. It's multi-class racing and we should play the cards we're dealt. Everyone's in the same boat, even if it can be annoying sometimes. Dealing with different types of cars, traffic, and all that is part of the game. If I can deal with it better than my competitors, I gain an advantage but that's all down to skill. Sorry - I meant old age and treachery...

K
 
Did anyone see the F5 / FV split start at NHMS this past weekend on Sunday!? It was comedy! Both the 500's were qualied in front any ways and then one of flaked for fear of rain so there was a lone F5 behind the pacecar at the start!!! Couldn't belive the V guys talked someone into that!

Another con would be people jumping the second start knowing its going green no matter what
 
CRallo said:
Did anyone see the F5 / FV split start at NHMS this past weekend on Sunday!? It was comedy! Both the 500's were qualied in front any ways and then one of flaked for fear of rain so there was a lone F5 behind the pacecar at the start!!! Couldn't belive the V guys talked someone into that!

Another con would be people jumping the second start knowing its going green no matter what
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...which is one of a list of things that has to be done well if you go that route. It's mandatory for someone to *really* watch that second group AND have the stones to penalize anyone who jumps - including the "pole sitter." That's not something we tend to do very well.

K
 
CRallo said:
Did anyone see the F5 / FV split start at NHMS this past weekend on Sunday!? It was comedy! Both the 500's were qualied in front any ways and then one of flaked for fear of rain so there was a lone F5 behind the pacecar at the start!!! Couldn't belive the V guys talked someone into that!

Another con would be people jumping the second start knowing its going green no matter what
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the stewards were informed of the F5 leaving before the event, but i guess the plans were already in progress. As for the FV's they had quite a talking to before hand about behaving because they were the ones requesting the split start and it was in their best interest to make sure it went well
 
at the risk of JINXing this thread, have the top two in your class hang back a bit to form your own group.....

depending on the track and the size of the total race group, it is likely you are beyond a turn from the starter's view anyways....

this worked out for one of the races for the ITA/ITC race group at the IT fest this year.
 
Knestis said:
Personally, I think they're crap. It's multi-class racing and we should play the cards we're dealt. Everyone's in the same boat, even if it can be annoying sometimes. Dealing with different types of cars, traffic, and all that is part of the game. If I can deal with it better than my competitors, I gain an advantage but that's all down to skill. Sorry - I meant old age and treachery...

K
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It's multiclass racing because of time constraints, not design. In an ideal world, every class would have its own race group, but until we invent a time-space warp machine, we are limited to the available daylight hours.

When ITC/SRX7 were grouped together in DC Region, ITC requested a split start because we were tired of having ITC cars damaged on the first lap by the rear of the other class -- either through collateral damage of RX7 on RX7 violence or trying to drive through an ITC car.

callard said:
I'm with Kirk. It's called racing. If you want split starts, go rally.
Chuck
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Our group has the split-start because, at the time, the bottom 50% of the "faster" class was running times slower than the top 50% of the "slower" class and the slower class drivers were in open rebellion over having the other class shoved onto us in the middle of the season. Some of the faster class cars (read high HP) but slower drivers (read parked in corners) were known to engage themselves in racing for position with 2 or more slower class cars (engaged in an actual race). I.e. Common courtesy is that a driver in a faster classed car who is not actively engaged in a class battle to get out of the way of an in-class battle by falling back if he does not have the speed to pull away from the slower cars. The drivers in the faster class had a reputation of not showing such courtesy and forgetting in which class they were racing.

Given the increase in ITS laptimes, it probably is time to consider dropping the split start.
 
tom91ita said:
at the risk of JINXing this thread, have the top two in your class hang back a bit to form your own group.....
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Not that the officials always follow the GCR, but the starter should not throw the green in that case.

Split starts are great if you're in the lead pack. Plain awful if you're not since the lead cars in the slower pack have to fight their way through the backmarkers very early.
 
Multi-Class or mixed class groups are the essence of "Club" racing.

Split starts can only work on a very long track with disciplined pole sitters.

Outside of Road America and VIR, we are not swimming in Long long tracks.
 
GKR_17 said:
Split starts are great if you're in the lead pack. Plain awful if you're not since the lead cars in the slower pack have to fight their way through the backmarkers very early.
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I guess it depends on whether you want to pick your way through them individually and when the nerves are settled from the start or when they are in a bunch and hyped up on green flag fever.

Either way, the slower class race leaders are going to need to get around the "faster" class cars. If there are large HP differences, the faster class cars gridded right behind the race leaders will win the race to T1.

joeg said:
Multi-Class or mixed class groups are the essence of "Club" racing.
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So is being situationally aware and not mucking up someone's race when you don't have one. Sometimes a class has it, sometimes they don't.

Split starts can only work on a very long track with disciplined pole sitters.

Outside of Road America and VIR, we are not swimming in Long long tracks.
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Length of track doesn't matter. The desire of the second group to continue with split starts is what makes it work -- that and start judges waiting to call jumps.
 
GKR_17 said:
Not that the officials always follow the GCR, but the starter should not throw the green in that case.

Split starts are great if you're in the lead pack. Plain awful if you're not since the lead cars in the slower pack have to fight their way through the backmarkers very early.
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That works both ways......
 
jjjanos said:
I guess it depends on whether you want to pick your way through them individually and when the nerves are settled from the start or when they are in a bunch and hyped up on green flag fever.
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Why would you be picking through them when they are in a bunch? Are you doing "split grids"?

Seems to me that if you are not doing split starts, then the only sensible thing to do is to grid all cars according to qualifying time, regardless of class.
 
JoshS said:
Why would you be picking through them when they are in a bunch? Are you doing "split grids"?
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Two classes: Faster should be running much faster than the slower. Faster class has gobs more HP and torque than slower class.

Reality: Faster class leaders
Slower Class Bunch #1 about 1 second slower
Faster class Grp#2 about 0.8- 1.5 seconds slower
Slower Class Grp #2 about 0.5 - 1 seconds slower
Faster class Grp #3 about 1+ seconds slower
Tail end of slower class...

On the 1800+ foot race to turn 1, the slower group of "faster" cars are going to leapfrog the cohort gridded to their front because anyone can go fast in a straight line. The race for the slower class will be decided by whoever didn't get stuck behind the slower "faster" cars. Repeat for the next pairings.

Worse yet, if the guys running 6th/7th in the faster class get intermixed with the slower class, you'll have a situation where 3rd-5th in the slower class watch the race leaders walk away because their stuck behind cars they outqualified, but who won't GTF outta the way. Yeah, thats r.a.c.i.n.g, but it's random and breaks up a pack of 6+ cars that are capable of fighting for the class win the entire race.

It's not particularly enjoyable to watch your race vanish in the distance when you get stuck behind a car (not in your class) with a hell of lot more straight line speed, that you outqualified by a second and who is fighting tooth and nail to keep you behind him.
 
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joeg said:
Multi-Class or mixed class groups are the essence of "Club" racing.

Split starts can only work on a very long track with disciplined pole sitters.

Outside of Road America and VIR, we are not swimming in Long long tracks.
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Disagreed...

We do split starts at every race (nasa norcal), we do it at thunderhill (3 mile) and Infenion (~2miles).

Both places are just fine. Some times we have 3 starts.. again in the 4 or 5 years i've been racing i've never had a problem with split starts.


But it does take a bit of coordination... And a bit of knowledge about the classes/drivers. And we use more then 1 pace car to keep things good for the second flag.
 
jjjanos said:
On the 1800+ foot race to turn 1, the slower group of "faster" cars are going to leapfrog the cohort gridded to their front because anyone can go fast in a straight line. The race for the slower class will be decided by whoever didn't get stuck behind the slower "faster" cars. Repeat for the next pairings.
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Yes, you are right, I was not thinking of this effect ... I guess that's the advantage of being in the fastest class in the race group for the last few years. I have raced in the slowest class of the race group too, so I know the effect you describe.
 
We run split starts a lot at Road Atlanta, particulary for the ARRC since it helps preserve the "National Championship" flavor of the event. We use two pace cars and the second group is about 25-30 seconds behind the first group when the first group gets the green. When done correctly, the fast cars of the second group don't start catching the laggards of the first group until 5-6 laps into the race. By that time both groups have had some time to get things sorted out.

The downside is the second group is pretty confident they'll get the green if the first group does, so sometimes they'll jump the start. Our stewards have been really good about black-flagging offenders, however, so that doesn't happen very often.
 
I am supprised at how many people don't like split starts! How many people are or have raced at the front of the slower class in a race and enjoyed dicing it up with the slower "faster class" cars? Also I was thinking about the grouped that run with either production cars and thos that run with SRF once in a while...

Interesting replies... Thanks :)

Raymond "
 
RSTPerformance said:
I am supprised at how many people don't like split starts! How many people are or have raced at the front of the slower class in a race and enjoyed dicing it up with the slower "faster class" cars? Also I was thinking about the grouped that run with either production cars and thos that run with SRF once in a while...

Interesting replies... Thanks :)

Raymond "
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Done it pretty much full time since I built the first Golf six years ago.

I guess I'm old-school (or just old) in some respects. On the other hand, I view issues like traffic as an opportunity to be better than someone I'm racing with. If I'm in a race for position and both I and my competition have to deal with a slow ITS car in our midst, the one who does the best job of that will win.

I also view split starts as yet another way we come up with rules to avoid enforcing rules. We do them as often as not for the reason JJJ expresses above - because drivers at the back of (whatever class) are being idiots. Well, what you got there is what we old farts call a "driver problem" - not a grid problem. Rather than going to the stewards with a plan to run away from the knuckleheads, you should go to them about the knuckleheads. What happens when one of those IT7 drivers buys an ITC Civic? They're no longer stupid?

And I call a friendly BS on the "time constraint" argument. Sports car racing is a multi-class deal because its roots are in endurance events. I suppose one could argue that they would have had multiple 24 heures du mans each year, for all the different classes through the decades, but c'mon... ALMS could declare next season that they are going to a one-class structure. GA could kill off the GT cars. But they're not going to, and not because the only other option is to run separate races for the different classes...

K

EDIT - It occurs to me that split starts are just another manifestation of Me First. People willing to ask for organizational changes rather than deal with their own issues by compromising and playing nice with others. Wusses.
 
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