Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
So why is that even a data point when the car is obviously multiple seconds off the pace? Really.
STL Chassis Builds?
- Thread starter Andy Bettencourt
- Start date
So why is that even a data point when the car is obviously multiple seconds off the pace? Really.
Still not getting the STAC's position on the chassis. glad to see I'm not alone. as far as "It's an ITR CAR!!!!" it's just weight. add more, and I can make it an ITS car. similarly S->A, A->B, vice versa, etc... thinking in terms of IT is ridiculous in this setting, just as thinking of Formula Atlantic and Prod cars is ridiculous when discussing IT.
what's left, B13 sentras?
seriously. Andy Jake, etc... are spot on. this chassis restriction thing is completely* without logic.
*I'll bite on the aluminum loti, that's a horse of a different color in a number of respects, not all of which are lap time related.
All 2nd and 3rd generation USDM 'Tegs had independent multilink rear suspension and SLA fronts... just like (and I do mean JUST LIKE) your civic. BAN THE CIVICS!!!!11! Oh, and the miatas.all in all, with STL mods/cage the resulting difference would be multi-link rear.... which is also available on older Integra models (90 i believe) and a 04 TSX which are NOT in ITR...
what's left, B13 sentras?
seriously. Andy Jake, etc... are spot on. this chassis restriction thing is completely* without logic.
*I'll bite on the aluminum loti, that's a horse of a different color in a number of respects, not all of which are lap time related.
Im against this inclusion.
STL is not Honda Challenge but I wanted to point this out.
HC rules
Legal: An H3 Integra GS-R may be rebuilt from an Integra RS tub. The “advantages” of the RS shell are the lack of sunroof and ABS – both of which may be removed under these rules.
Illegal: An H3 Integra GS-R may not be rebuilt using an Integra Type R shell. The Type R shell has structural reinforcements that are not available on RS/LS/GS/GS-R Integras.
If needed I can provide these structural differences.
If you allow the chassis, it needs to be clear in the rules you cannot run a B18C5 engine or B18C5 throttle body/intake manifold in any chassis. Detuning the B18C5 cam lift would not be enough in my opinion without massively restricting airflow.
The only reasoning to allow the chassis is someone has one, and they want to swap in a B18C1 meeting the current STL specs...back again to the HC rules for chassis advantages.
The ITR chassis reinforcements are fairly irrelevant in STL, given no restriction on cage points and allowance for seam welding. If we did allow it, the B18C5 would maintain its exclusion in the class. Built to STL prep, the only functional difference between a Type R and a RS-sourced build would be the 5-bolt wheels, for which you'd have significantly fewer (and probably more expensive) options for wheels.
If someone wants to take a rare Type R and put in a K20 or a GSR engine to go run STL, knock yourself out. Silly, but whatever.
And, to the general point (I wonder if we'd like to move these chassis discussions into its own topic, and hash them out further there? Edit: done. - GA) if the only major problem with STL regs is what chassis should/should not be included/excluded, then that's actually not an insurmountable problem. It's something easily discussed, changed (even within the "rules year"), and accommodated.
GA
If someone wants to take a rare Type R and put in a K20 or a GSR engine to go run STL, knock yourself out. Silly, but whatever.
And, to the general point (I wonder if we'd like to move these chassis discussions into its own topic, and hash them out further there? Edit: done. - GA) if the only major problem with STL regs is what chassis should/should not be included/excluded, then that's actually not an insurmountable problem. It's something easily discussed, changed (even within the "rules year"), and accommodated.
GA
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Meh, no surprise. There's probably a negative number of "built" STL cars entered and, as we've all tangentially agreed, the Miata out-of-the-box is probably the best chassis out there.
I know Keane's Integra is still in near-SSC trim, as he was asking me just last week about things like springs, shocks, and swaybars. I'm guessing all he did was take out any extra ballast and easily-accessible interior parts and slapped some STL stickers on the thing.
I am surprised, however, that there isn't a larger number of Spec Miatas doing double duty, especially given the new Ho-Hos they're running (which can explain a lot about comparison lap times this weekend...is SM faster this year than last?)
GA
Rabbit07
New member
Try Coil-overs, cams, a non sunroof roof panel, no ballast, header, and F/P regulator. Oh and some time on Irish Mike's dyno. The car is closer than you give it credit.
The Pole time was in the 38's. That's what I would usually run there in my old ITA car depending on weather.
Drago was second and also slower than his SM time. Tells me that it was likely very hot when they qual'd.
Andy, No data point, just mentioning it.
Greg I agree completely, I was going to add your comment about the ITR being an over priced shell, or that there were only lets call it under 6k made which is probably way too high of an estimate.
I can look at the chassis discussion.
Im still waiting to see some true STL purpose built vehicles that are not just double dipping. I know there are some out there outside of my own which is not a 10/10ths build...but is built for the class.
I can look at the chassis discussion.
Im still waiting to see some true STL purpose built vehicles that are not just double dipping. I know there are some out there outside of my own which is not a 10/10ths build...but is built for the class.
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Again, "meh". *I* think the Miata is the chassis to have right now in STL, but unless/until we start seeing some full-tilt-boogie builds, it's not enough information to draw any kind of conclusions...
Love to hear more news about Sebring though, given it's the very first race for Super Touring Light in National racing; anyone have anything substantial?
GA
STL field was light on real STL cars - I think Keane was the only one, though I could have missed something, Aspergren's neon, maybe?
Drago definitely had an SM, sans restrictor(?) SM was taped over next to STL on the graphics package. I don't know what if anything else was done to it.
track didn't seem to be 100%, and it was very warm. nothing unusual.
Drago definitely had an SM, sans restrictor(?) SM was taped over next to STL on the graphics package. I don't know what if anything else was done to it.
track didn't seem to be 100%, and it was very warm. nothing unusual.
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Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
So if Drago ran his car without the restrictor, and with the new Hoosier tire, it should have been about as capable as my ITA car. I think he won one and came in second for one. There were mostly double-dipping SM's trying to get some testing in with the Ho-Ho's I bet.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
The draft is part of it. It's just one of the data points that we keep harping on where SM times don't translate directly to other classes. We have data that shows solo qual laps at almost 2 seconds slower than when inside a 3-4 car draft at WGI.
RacingmySi
New member
I thought in another forum you said that the STL rules were set for 2012 and "are what they are" for this season? Unless of course you mean that the CRB may exclude a car for the 2013 season? I thought about building for STL but not with this leaf blowing going on for a season already underway. I could get get caught with my pants down building according to the rules that appear subject to change at any time even though the philosophy and rules are in the 2012 GCR. No thanks. 2 potential thought they were good ideas are now terrible can get caught with a big cost outlay paperweight ideas.
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RacingmySi
New member
According to Drago for STL he took out his plate only. He also mentioned that while he took his plate out he didn't make the appropriate fuel pressure adjustment and screwed himself up a bit. He wasn't trying to win STL either, just track time. Keanes car was over 200 pounds heavy, and not fully STL built yet but ran 236's on Sunday and still fast enough for a couple of off's and still finished on the boxes. I didn't think he had coil overs yet either but maybe that is wrong,
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They are. The Board of Directors of the SCCA has declared that no preparation rules will change within the racing season.
However, that does not mean that competition adjustments cannot be made. From what I understand, while the "rules" will not change (i.e., don't expect to get any alternate control arms approved in 2012) adjustments such as (but not limited to?) weights, restrictors, tire sizes, and classifications/adjustments of cars are well within the authority of the CRB within the competition year. And that goes not just for Super Touring, but for all other SCCA categories as well.
GA
RacingmySi
New member
I thought there was a specific rule in the GCR for car classifications that specifically says car classifications by 1 December for the following year yeda-yada, no and car classifications don't happen during the year. I don't recall the BOD/CRB making a car classification in years in fact mid stream. The shit storm this caused before is what specifically led to the rule I mention above and would clearly cause a shit storm in this case.
adjustments for tires, weights, restrictions are made as competition adjustments (this too in GCR), not as a pre-curser for what could be or someone builds it stuff. Big slippery slope STL is and it hasn't even started cept 1 weekend.
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Tim, if that's correct, then it's the responsibility of the CRB/BoD to catch those kind of recommendations. And, in the end, if they happen then they're easily protestable, n'est pa? $25 for the win, baby!
Come play in the small sandbox with us, you'll like it.
GA
Come play in the small sandbox with us, you'll like it.
GA
Rabbit07
New member
I was witness to that this last summer at the Glen. Pesky
sm's. I was glad they split us, I was 1st in SSB and 3rd in SM
