STL cylinder head porting
- Thread starter adamjabaay
- Start date
lateapex911
Super Moderator
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I would be surprised if that name is released.
The desire for transparency among the clubs operators is far less than I would prefer.
It's a fucking CAR CLUB folks. We are not hiding our weapon technolofy from a world menace. Just follow proper procedures, name names, and cut it with the back channel end around BS.
I would be surprised if that name is released.
The desire for transparency among the clubs operators is far less than I would prefer.
It's a fucking CAR CLUB folks. We are not hiding our weapon technolofy from a world menace. Just follow proper procedures, name names, and cut it with the back channel end around BS.
adamjabaay
New member
so....crb member, races STL potentially, that might narrow it down?
100% dead lock it was either Drago or Keane. It really makes no difference which. They are both "playas" when it comes to this game.
EDIT - just noticing now that items from real members list the proposer's name; items from the mist just list "Club Racing Board." That's bad practice, assuming we care about transparency.
EDIT EDIT - LMFAO! I crack me up!!
K
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adamjabaay
New member
But....1% weight? Maybe 5%.....???
Could this ACTUALLY be a field "leveler" for some cars, eliminate the "plunge gate" problems (some of these heads SUCK from the factory, and suck more than the other heads off the same engines). I'd suspect that the CRB might actually be seeking opinions! Write some letters?
I Personally think it won't benefit big k20's.
It will barely benefit b18cs.
It will barely benefit b16"s.
It will give 6-10 whp to d15/d16/Mazda bp.... although I'm a bit rusty on BP stuff
What are the "other" engines I'm not thinking of/don't see much?
Ford stuff? Chevy? Nissan sr20?
Could this ACTUALLY be a field "leveler" for some cars, eliminate the "plunge gate" problems (some of these heads SUCK from the factory, and suck more than the other heads off the same engines). I'd suspect that the CRB might actually be seeking opinions! Write some letters?
I Personally think it won't benefit big k20's.
It will barely benefit b18cs.
It will barely benefit b16"s.
It will give 6-10 whp to d15/d16/Mazda bp.... although I'm a bit rusty on BP stuff
What are the "other" engines I'm not thinking of/don't see much?
Ford stuff? Chevy? Nissan sr20?
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lateapex911
Super Moderator
Yea, when the ITAC created something SOMEbody penned it and took charge. I did the vent window thing, I think, and so on.
Having a name attached from the CRB WOULD be cool, except, it would mean little if they just assigned a guy to sign it in leau of the actual originator.
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adamjabaay
New member
I haven't determined what to write , or even what I feel about this....
The only thing I'm sure of is that 1% is NOT the number id assign ported cars....that's 20-30 lbs. Lololol
The only thing I'm sure of is that 1% is NOT the number id assign ported cars....that's 20-30 lbs. Lololol
I think tGA nailed the intent in that the SM debacle has shed light on the tech shed grey area of allowed bluepringting vs. porting. I believe the thought is that blueprinting should allow correction of lesser STOCK head castings to be as or nearly as good as the best STOCK head castings of the same part. SM allowed and specified the dimensions for this work which makes it scrutineerable. The fact that there was full on blending and porting being done and not caught for so long is another issue and has been beaten to death, but in short we need a culture change if we want our rules to be enforced. Non-spec classes have too much variety to make plunge cuts reasonably scrutineerable, and thats AFTER everyone agrees to the allowances under blueprinting in the first place, which they do not. In SM there is a huge data set from which to cull the known maximum dimensions of factory work. I doubt there's many other engines, if any, even popular ones in SCCA, where that can be said. A single example from the OEM parts counter cannot be considered as an exemplar as it will only show another sample within the supposed maximum stock dimensions, and that's assuming you can get a NIB head casting inthe first place. Don't even try to protest someone against a used part, see runoffs 2013 STU turbo miata protest.
I think the fact is that, dispite what any philosophy statement allows, the club leadership is going to spare themselves the embarassment of the 2014 SM runoffs and be far more lenient in the declared allowances for head work. BUT - they are going about it all wrong with this proposal. Step one should adding language to the blueprinting rules of the GCR Technical Glossary regarding "plunge cuts" and other casting-matching practices as "normal range" is usually not "defined by the manufacturer" in any form the club or its membership has access to. Alternatively, consider the creation of a universal allowance based on things we DO specify, CAN observe and measure objectively, or that can be determined in another defensible manner. As Len Hoffman (performance head specialist) has pointed out, it's not hard to police if you use some numbers based on valve sizes rather than allowing "blueprinting" to indeterminant stock dimensions. He's one of those expert types we would do well to consider the input of.
The problem of weight vs. expected gains isn't a problem. Due to the improvement in design, knowledge, CFD, and casting techniques over the years, more modern heads are likely to see less benefit than older ones. older ones are likely to have a greater distribution of benefit accross the sample set of castings, which isn't a big deal as those unmodified castings will have a simillar distribution under current rules. Why set a single weight penalty for the whole of the field under such a system? How do you reconcile the performance variation of differently designed heads, if we try to at all? Currently it's not considered in STL and only marginally so in IT. LP Prod has some sort of methodology to determine weights on cars but I have no idea what it is nor how well it really works. I don't see this allowance upsetting the apple cart, and in all cases except STL, it would be fixable if it were to.
In short - I'm not against the proposal's intent as I see (imagine?) it, but I'm firmly against the single class implimentation. as worded it is myopic, poorly thought through, and implies a lack of understanding of the breadth of the subject. If this is allowed, it should be allowed in a single, universally defined set of rules for all "stock" and limitted prep heads. To do otherwise will create multiple different versions of the same intended allowance, or worse, set up additional opportunities for confusion, embarrassment, etc...
I think the fact is that, dispite what any philosophy statement allows, the club leadership is going to spare themselves the embarassment of the 2014 SM runoffs and be far more lenient in the declared allowances for head work. BUT - they are going about it all wrong with this proposal. Step one should adding language to the blueprinting rules of the GCR Technical Glossary regarding "plunge cuts" and other casting-matching practices as "normal range" is usually not "defined by the manufacturer" in any form the club or its membership has access to. Alternatively, consider the creation of a universal allowance based on things we DO specify, CAN observe and measure objectively, or that can be determined in another defensible manner. As Len Hoffman (performance head specialist) has pointed out, it's not hard to police if you use some numbers based on valve sizes rather than allowing "blueprinting" to indeterminant stock dimensions. He's one of those expert types we would do well to consider the input of.
The problem of weight vs. expected gains isn't a problem. Due to the improvement in design, knowledge, CFD, and casting techniques over the years, more modern heads are likely to see less benefit than older ones. older ones are likely to have a greater distribution of benefit accross the sample set of castings, which isn't a big deal as those unmodified castings will have a simillar distribution under current rules. Why set a single weight penalty for the whole of the field under such a system? How do you reconcile the performance variation of differently designed heads, if we try to at all? Currently it's not considered in STL and only marginally so in IT. LP Prod has some sort of methodology to determine weights on cars but I have no idea what it is nor how well it really works. I don't see this allowance upsetting the apple cart, and in all cases except STL, it would be fixable if it were to.
In short - I'm not against the proposal's intent as I see (imagine?) it, but I'm firmly against the single class implimentation. as worded it is myopic, poorly thought through, and implies a lack of understanding of the breadth of the subject. If this is allowed, it should be allowed in a single, universally defined set of rules for all "stock" and limitted prep heads. To do otherwise will create multiple different versions of the same intended allowance, or worse, set up additional opportunities for confusion, embarrassment, etc...
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lawtonglenn
New member
I submitted my first ever letter to the CRB ... #16150
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