STUPID RULES

[dj10]

Here's the kind I hate. Safety rule changes masquerading as rules to make racing "safer" when they really just put more money in the SFI's (or others) pockets. Like the new swap your belts every two years BS, because we're afraid that some dude in Florida is going to leave his belts exposed in daily thundrestorms and sun for 4.9 years, then race the car, hit a wall, and sue the club becuase the belts were degraded, and incresed his injury level...

Grrrr................
[/b]

Jake



Some years ago I ran a Pro WC race. !st time very nevrous about going thru tech inspection. To make a long, short. The SCCA Tech came by, I opened the door for him to inspect, he slapped a sticker on my windshield without even looking to see if I had belts in the car and walked away, my mouth was still open some 10 mins latter. Pro racing treats you as if you know what you are doing when you get to that level. Club racing techs treat you like you don't know what you are doing & children that got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. BTW I'm a firm beliver of natural selection!

You ain't seen nothing yet, Jake. SFI just had it's meeting at PRI here in Orlando. Prepare to reach for your wallet. [/b]

Care to elaborate on this?

 

[Hotshoe]

I have no problem with dumb rules. I mean, I really don't care about the fact that I don't have to go an move my battery to a "safer" position, or that I would have to replace my overflow...er washer bottle with some overpriced alum gidget...
[/b]

Thanks Jake for singling me out but, while your at it, tell me why they let us put in a fuel cell? Safety. Andy has told me that you always look " Big Picture" BS!

Don't whiz down my back and then tell me it's raining..........

We were asked for our opinion and I gave one. Then you have to conjure up some smart remark about what I said. What is your problem with me. Out of all the people on this forum YOU start more $hit than anyone. Well, I would prefer you take me off your list of people to piss off. And if I must , I will assist you.

Rick Thompson

 

[dj10]

Thanks Jake for singling me out but, while your at it, tell me why they let us put in a fuel cell? Safety. Andy has told me that you always look " Big Picture" BS!

Don't whiz down my back and then tell me it's raining..........

We were asked for our opinion and I gave one. Then you have to conjure up some smart remark about what I said. What is your problem with me. Out of all the people on this forum YOU start more $hit than anyone. Well, I would prefer you take me off your list of people to piss off. And if I must , I will assist you.

Rick Thompson
[/b]

Rick, chill out. Am I missing something? I didn't see any mention you or your name in Jake's posts.

 

[Hotshoe]

Am I missing something?
[/b]

I wish I knew what the problem is. I guess you need to ask Jake. I only made my comments,(without making no remarks about anyone elses comments) concerning the topic of this discussion.

I didn't know that we were going to be scrutinized.

 

[gsbaker]

Care to elaborate on this?[/b]

Just rumor, but apparently the least expensive H&N restraint was written out of the spec, and a new seat spec was adopted.

 

[leggwork]

I can't find the text of SFI 16.1 since I'm not a part of the trade association, but in the FIA 8853 standard for belts, they don't specify any material requirements, or require any aging tests on the belts - they only test the new belts to a certain performance level, so who knows how the belts will perform at the end of 5 years or what they're basing the 5 year rule on? They test the belts at 20 degrees F. The air force puts a 13 year life on pilot harnesses using similar materials. I'm sure the SFI spec is equally insufficient.

And another good one for the future rules - many FIA or SFI belts break when they are put through the SFI 38.1 sled tests...

cheers,
bruce

SFI seat belts= 2years
FIA belts = 5 years?
Belts by the same manufacture but different labels? do they just make them better in the land of FIA?

As far as PS VS None PS goes the issue is the car was classed with the power steering pump as a consideration...Most Japanese pumps use 7 to 9 HP on the dyno.....
[/b]

 

[lateapex911]

Thanks Jake for singling me out but, while your at it, tell me why they let us put in a fuel cell? Safety. Andy has told me that you always look " Big Picture" BS!

Don't whiz down my back and then tell me it's raining..........

We were asked for our opinion and I gave one. Then you have to conjure up some smart remark about what I said. What is your problem with me. Out of all the people on this forum YOU start more $hit than anyone. Well, I would prefer you take me off your list of people to piss off. And if I must , I will assist you.

Rick Thompson
[/b]

Rick, first, I have NO problem with you...I have no list of people to piss off, and I only take umbrage with two or three posters here...one troll who loves to bring up the BMW issue, and another named Mattberg, who kind of ticks me off because he does nothing but whine and tell people who volunteer their time what self serving wastes they are. I DO take big issues with that, adn I'm not afraid to say so.

But you? Umm..no way.

My comments weren't aimed at anyone, actually. I skimmed the 3 pages of comments, and read a couple of "repeats"...items that have been discussed before. I can't tell you who said what, and my comments were purely trying to illustrate a point...that I'm more concerned about an organization that goes around trumping safety (SFI) and then our club, which buys into the recommendation of that organization, through the opinions of it's President, who interestingly enough, serves as a member of our 3 person safety commitee.

Thats the kind of rule that kind of irks me. It smacks of a conflict of interest, and seems self serving.

Washer bottles? Not on my radar, that's all.

Please Rick, I had NO idea you would take offense...I have the highest regard for you. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[gprodracer]

Rick,

Jakes just jealous 'cause us Florida boys are still racing, while his car is in a garage somewhere snowed in for 3 more months. Us "Florida dudes" belts wear out quicker 'cause we race 11 months a year!

Its all good people, this is a good topic. I've always thought that we should be able to move the batteries to a safer location after having (and having seen many others) worker uniforms destroyed by acid during "incident" clean up. BTW, I wrote several letters to that effect during the 90's, but was denied because the IT cars back then were much more like street cars than they are now. Pete Keane and his brother used to drive their car to the track the first 2 years I knew them.

Is this topic just IT rules? Prod cars can have fiberglass fenders, hoods, trunklids, and bumpers, but must have metal doors...just the metal skin though..WTF?

We all have to play by the rules, but some are way funnier than others.

Carry on!

Mark

 

[Rabbit07]

How about the VIN in two locations?

What the hell is wrong with one VIN tag?

If your car has been repaired a number of times there may only be the dash VIN left of the original car.

 

[Hotshoe]

Rick, first, I have NO problem with you...I had NO idea you would take offense....
[/b]

Jake,

.... Thank You for the clarification. Sometimes I get a little defensive.

.... The feelings of respect are mutual. And I apologize for jumping to conclusions. I guess I'm spending to much time on my Elliptical ..... lol

.... I just wish common sense could prevail in some circumstances.....don't you?? ... lol

.. Rick Thompson

 

[CaptainWho]

I've been told, and this was a long time ago, that the insurance on a spectator event was triple that of a regular secret club race.
[/b]

I surely don't have any first-hand information, but that would surprise me, mainly because all of the Atlanta Region races, at least at Road Atlanta, are spectator events. The entry fee is around $10 per day IIRC. I rarely see many spectators (numbers in the few dozens or less) but I can't imagine it would be enough at $10 each to cover a tripled insurance premium. Of course, I could be totally wrong. It's happened plenty of times before.

 

[leggwork]

if they sign the waiver, then they are not "spectators" in the insurance sense. Maybe that is what they were doing at RA.
cheers,
bruce

I surely don't have any first-hand information, but that would surprise me, mainly because all of the Atlanta Region races, at least at Road Atlanta, are spectator events. The entry fee is around $10 per day IIRC. I rarely see many spectators (numbers in the few dozens or less) but I can't imagine it would be enough at $10 each to cover a tripled insurance premium. Of course, I could be totally wrong. It's happened plenty of times before.
[/b]

 

[tom_sprecher]

SCCA spectator events at Road Atlanta are $15 and you do sigh a waiver. The insurance premium for spectators at any given race is 1/4 to 1/6 of that for paticipants, is a constant and really not all that much.

Insurance for the drivers must be based on anticipated particpation numbers as it is higher for Regional races than for Nationals.

Sorry to get off subject so to bring it back I say we tweek the the "class philosophy". If the Wicked Witch of the Rules Creep turns IT into Prod in 25 years so be it. Have we had the same classes and rule sets in SCCA since its inception? Don't think so.

Plus, if you find that you're no longer in Kansas all you have to do is click your heels three times and say "there's no place like SS".

Well, gotta run. Its a beautiful day and I need to put the IT class stickers on the carbon fiber body panels and decide what ratios I'm gonna run in the Hewland.

 

[charrbq]

Appreciate the spectator/insurance update. As I said, it was a long time ago when I got my info. I'm glad to see someone else is running a carbon fiber body part. I'm having a helluva time finding a stock hood to replace the bent one on my Honda. I figured that I might as well get a head start on going national. Oh, wait, ITC is one of those classes that's not going to be allowed to go national, because it's a dying class. How soon I forget. That's good...now I can save all that money and time that it would take preparing a national car to the ever changing rules. But now I have to find a stock hood. Ever the bother!

 

[gprodracer]

Chris









Mark

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Mark and Chris, FWIW: The ITAC is trying to figure out ways to bolster ITB and ITC numbers. Heck - even Kirk asked in a couple forums for some new car classifications - poof - no responses.

Have any suggestions? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[Knestis]

I haven't received any emails in response to requests in the Toyota and Nissan forums, either - except for one asking if I thought the MR2 should be a B car.

To my mind, all this does is reinforce something that i already believe about the member request process for listing new cars.

** Prospective members don't know that the system exists, and just wonder why the car they are interested in isn't in the book.

** New members don't understand or are potentially intimidated by the process - a possibility not helped by the wacky crap asked for by the VTS forms (windshield angle??).

** Current entrants have little incentive (or an active DIS-incentive) to request that new cars be added to their class - there seems to be a reluctance among the majority of SCCA Club racers to do anything that doesn't put their own competitive interests first. Go figure.

** The exception to the previous hypothesis occurs when a fan of Brand X sees an alternative chassis aging into IT, and sees it as "better" than existing options (e.g., the newest legal generation of Integra in A, new BMW 323 in S).

** There are also some chicken-egg/Catch 22 influences that confound the situation. If a car gets listed at what is perceived to be an advantageous weight, it will get built. If it gets listed at a weight that's perceived as leaving it uncompetitive, nobody wants to build one. If a car IS listed at a weight that gives it an actual edge, it contributes to performance creep (not rules creep) by becoming the mutation that helps the class evolve to be faster. I don't envy the ITAC on this dynamic, not one little bit.

This raises the B/C issue to one that can probably only be addressed strategically, by folks who don't have vested interests at the class level. My plan, when I posted looking for Toyota/Nissan options (low hanging ITB/ITC fruit) was to mooch the necessary info off of someone with brand knowledge, and submit the requests myself. Of course, I DO have a vested interest in B but it manifests itself as wanting more entries in the class - I'm weird like that - but my enthusiasm is damped by the time required to chase down the information.

The ITAC has enough stuff on its plate so can't get as proactive as they might want, to address this issue. If we could streamline the application process by mandating submission of ONLY the data that the ITAC requires, that would help.

K

 

[JohnRW]

Since I like putting specific numbers to discussions when they come up...

The TOTAL difference in insurance and sanction fee costs between a 'non-spectator Regional or National' and a 'spectator Regional or National' is $250. The costs are listed on the SCCA insurance rate sheets/sanction forms, both of which are on-line. No difference in sanction fees, just the liability insurance.

That $250 is a 'total' number. Not dependant on the number of spectators. Not dependant on the number of cars. Not dependant on the phase of the moon. "All in, all done". $250. Sold.

Clarity is a rare commodity. Just providing a small gift for the holiday season. You all owe me a beer.

 

[gsbaker]

You all owe me a beer.[/b]

Done. Name your poison.

 

[dj10]

Since I like putting specific numbers to discussions when they come up...

The TOTAL difference in insurance and sanction fee costs between a 'non-spectator Regional or National' and a 'spectator Regional or National' is $250. The costs are listed on the SCCA insurance rate sheets/sanction forms, both of which are on-line. No difference in sanction fees, just the liability insurance.

That $250 is a 'total' number. Not dependant on the number of spectators. Not dependant on the number of cars. Not dependant on the phase of the moon. "All in, all done". $250. Sold.

Clarity is a rare commodity. Just providing a small gift for the holiday season. You all owe me a beer. [/b]

I can't believe any of the tracks and car related businesses (and even non car related) out there are not taking advantage of this, doing a little cable marketing and take advantage of the bigger regionals and making some damn money?!? Someone start the "Grassroots Motorsports Network" and but the best races on TV and sell TV ads to cover costs. Hell I've only been in ITS for 2 yrs now but I've been in more and better races than any time I've raced previously. Other than a few cheaters here in other classes who just walk away from the field (LOL and no one protests them), I've seen some very good racing. Someone with some insight to this business and with more money that I have, could do very well I would think. I'm also a proponent on the IT Pro series in the SE. I can't for the life of me understand why this is not spreading? Maybe everyone is happy with the hunk of wood they win?

JohnRW, I'll buy you one if I ever see you @ WGI.