Philosophically, from your perspective the 'boxes would need to have been installed in a family car to be able to be swapped. Technically, since gear ratios are free, Prof is thinking about what gear that have been made would actually physically fit in the 'box he already has... - GA
STx Notes, December Fastrack
- Thread starter Greg Amy
- Start date
STO/U boxes are free, up to 6 ratios. I see no requirement in the rule s(dec fastrack) that the box be OEM. sequentials (A'La XTRAC) have a weight penalty.
STL boxes can be in-brand swaps "in their entirety" and/or "retrofitting OEM complete gear sets"
so it depends on which ST you want to play in. any ratios in U, like the prof is looking at, any VW/Audi trans or gearstack in L, so long as the ratio set is as delivered in some car from the family in the USA.
tGA - would chevrolet/pontiac/etc... be in the same family as toyota as toyota has built so many GM cars (FWD nova, GEO/Chevy prism, Vibe) or just those cars count as toyota? could I run a 3.0L toyota V6 in a vibe? Or maybe a honda 3.0L V6 like that used in a saturn vue in a cobalt or Astra? Taking it further - could I run a honda 4cyl in a toyota as they both make motors for GM thus are "all GM"???
generally speaking, I wouldn't say that honda or toyota = GM, but The automotive world is incestuous...
STL boxes can be in-brand swaps "in their entirety" and/or "retrofitting OEM complete gear sets"
so it depends on which ST you want to play in. any ratios in U, like the prof is looking at, any VW/Audi trans or gearstack in L, so long as the ratio set is as delivered in some car from the family in the USA.
tGA - would chevrolet/pontiac/etc... be in the same family as toyota as toyota has built so many GM cars (FWD nova, GEO/Chevy prism, Vibe) or just those cars count as toyota? could I run a 3.0L toyota V6 in a vibe? Or maybe a honda 3.0L V6 like that used in a saturn vue in a cobalt or Astra? Taking it further - could I run a honda 4cyl in a toyota as they both make motors for GM thus are "all GM"???
generally speaking, I wouldn't say that honda or toyota = GM, but The automotive world is incestuous...
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IMO, I'd say "go with the badge" that was on the car. If the transaxle was ever installed in Pontiac, it's free game for any GM product. But if the transaxle was only installed in the Toyota version of the same car, I'd suggest it's not legal for a GM car... - GA
Now I'm questioning what I thought I just learned.
In STL, does the entire "gear set" - so ALL OF THE GEARS, 1st-5th - have to be "retrofitted" in their entirety, or can EACH "gear PAIR" be retrofitted (potentially from different sources) to end up with optimized spacing 2-3, 3-4, and 4-5...?
Put differently, do I have to point at a chart of all of the gears in their original location and say, "We used these five"...? That as opposed to, 1st came from the stock '92 Golf GL, 2nd from a '97 Golf III, 3rd and 4th from a MkII Jetta diesel, and 5th from an '84 GTI...
Again - I'm looking at STL.
K
STL rule states:
"Either the OEM transmission or an alternate transmission must be used; the alternate transmission must be from the same manufacturer as the vehicle (e.g., an Acura transmission may be installed in a Honda car). Alternate transmissions must be used in their entirety. Retrofitting OEM complete gear sets in an alternate transmission case is permitted."
STU rule states:
"Transmission and ratios are free. Forward gears are limited to 6 speeds."
On edit: BTW, that's something I missed, too; I was expecting you could mix-n-match gears. Honestly, I'd prefer you be allowed to...
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where's the line, though? GM and ford gobbled up everyone at one point. does isuzu count as GM (absolutely SHOULD for the past 10 years or so at least but what about their older cars)? SAAB? is volvo ford, still? mazda? Jaguar?? MB and chrystler have split, but could I take a 98 AMG motor and put it into my dodge challenger? there's bloodlines that run deeper than might be obvious on the surface.
I can accept that a "customer car" such as a GEO would be a GM for purposes of sourcing motors, and that such sourcing would be limited to that "brand". but what about the other direction - sourcing parts from a customer model (say the Geo prism) for use in a car of the original manufacturer (in this example, toyota)?? the "best" USDM toyota 4AGE was in a geo prism GSi. by the "intent" I feel this should be 100% legal, no questions asked, for a toyota car (corolla, MR2, whatever) as it's a TOYOTA motor, and an evolutionary version of one sold AS a toyota in the US previously.
Honda/acura, VW/audi, pontiac/chevy, etc... are really obvious "sister" companies. some of the others not so much - even mazda/ford/volvo/jag/etc.. which have a lot of overlap (same engines and/or chassis in many cases) I think would be a stretch to call "sister" marques but could very well be identical cars under the sheetmetal (Jag S/Lincoln LS/Tbird or Mazda3-Volvo30/40/50)
I'm basically only asking in order to get ahead of the problems that WILL eventually arise from different readings by racers/officials/competitors
one of the many reasons STL makes no sense as written. good IDEA, needs garlic.
As you're implying, it's rather large, wide, and very gray. I don't think there's a hard, fast answer for you. But I would suggest that if someone were to try something non-obvious (e.g., putting a Pontiac G8 engine into a Toyota Yaris) that they'd at least try to pass that through SCCA Technical first...but in the end, it's the protest/appeal process that they'd have to overcome.
As far as I'm personally concerned, I think the intent of the ST rules are intended such that doing something like that is OK, but that's not an official position by any means... - GA
