The ITR Star Chamber
- Thread starter Knestis
- Start date
gran racing
Super Moderator
I like Bill's general survey idea if done properly. For people not racing, what would need to be done to attract them into the sport & SCCA (as in racing classes)? What types of cars would you like to see racing that are not currently? Why is there such a HUGE turnover within SCCA?
ITR...not so sure I care either way. I'm still curious what some of the NASA numbers are for some of these cars racing? I would prefer to see a class in IT that has more restrictions as to what can be done to the car. Instead of adding another expensive class, maybe go the other way even with some cool cars.
Although I do not like many aspects of NASA's PT class (we've already beaten this one to death), there are some cool things we can learn from it and use over in IT land.
ITR...not so sure I care either way. I'm still curious what some of the NASA numbers are for some of these cars racing? I would prefer to see a class in IT that has more restrictions as to what can be done to the car. Instead of adding another expensive class, maybe go the other way even with some cool cars.
Although I do not like many aspects of NASA's PT class (we've already beaten this one to death), there are some cool things we can learn from it and use over in IT land.
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
$35k for an IT car??? Who does that? And why?
Maybe I've been hanging with the Formula and GT crowd for too long but with that kind of money you could own a nice purpose built race car, say a 3-4 year old Continental, C Sports Racer or SPO/NASCAR road burner instead of a freakin' Honda some mom used to get groceries with.
But, like a lot of things, maybe I just don't get it.
Maybe I've been hanging with the Formula and GT crowd for too long but with that kind of money you could own a nice purpose built race car, say a 3-4 year old Continental, C Sports Racer or SPO/NASCAR road burner instead of a freakin' Honda some mom used to get groceries with.
But, like a lot of things, maybe I just don't get it.
gran racing
Super Moderator
I agree with you Tom. I get Anthony doing top of the line builds to promote his business, but many others...
Bill Miller
New member
Tom,
For whatever reason, that's what having someone build you a top-level ITS car will cost you, and then some. And who knows, full-tilt ITA cars may be pushing that number. I believe Anthony Serra quoted something in the $11k - $12k range for one of his full-tilt engine packages. Not to many years ago, an A2 ITB Golf from BSI would run you ~$20k. Wait until after the Runoffs this year, and look at what top SMs will cost.
I agree, you could run in a lot of other classes for that kind of money. Heck, you can buy the fastest EP Miata (past National Champion) for $50k. I forget what Loshak wanted for his EP Prelude, but I think it was about the same. Plenty of other top EP cars for the same, or less (sometimes lots), than top ITS cars.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Lots of reasons. If you have good competition in your area in a certain class, then the desire becomes greater to do well...It's better to beat many than a few.
Formula cars are forbidden in many families.
C Sports and so on are big wrenching classes, and the parts are foreign to most guys, plus, in many areas, why bother? Even the Runoffs had a lame field with the guys in back, who "won" the right to be there 7 seconds off the pace!
SPO, Nascar...gets REALLY expensive if you want to win.
Finally, while it's anot a "real" National champ. the ARRCs do have some prestige. So theres a draw there too.
That's why we have lots of different oppurtunities in SCCA...
lateapex911
Super Moderator
sorry, dbl post..
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
I dunno, I just feel you should get more technology for that kind of money. Also, there's the "cool" factor. With all the restrictions placed on IT or SM there's really nothing wizzy (Formula term) about them. At least not like purpose built cars. Hell, with a plain paint job these cars could have just come back from the rush hour commute by just looking at them. Any car in one of the classes I mentioned in my previous post simply painted in primer would still turn heads.
At the last ARRC test day a friend of a friend had an SPO that was a NASCAR road race car and was from a couple of seasons ago. I believe it was purchased for around $55k. Now, I realize that's a bit more than $35k, and way out of my price range (I may be slow, but I ain't crazy), but there wasn't anything on that car that wasn't trick city (MX term). I seriously considered SPO by way of a ASA or ARCA roller (easy to find at $15-18k) and a crate motor ($5k) or a fairly hot motor built from Summit or Barnett available parts ($10k). Much cheaper and will lift some skirts compared the $35k Honda example.
Now, I realize I have said nothing about local competition or that purpose built cars may not get spousal approval or any of the other reasons mentioned. I'm just saying that I personally would have a hard time justifying to myself or my friends that spending that kind of money on an IT Whatchamacallit vs. a thoroughbred race car.
At the last ARRC test day a friend of a friend had an SPO that was a NASCAR road race car and was from a couple of seasons ago. I believe it was purchased for around $55k. Now, I realize that's a bit more than $35k, and way out of my price range (I may be slow, but I ain't crazy), but there wasn't anything on that car that wasn't trick city (MX term). I seriously considered SPO by way of a ASA or ARCA roller (easy to find at $15-18k) and a crate motor ($5k) or a fairly hot motor built from Summit or Barnett available parts ($10k). Much cheaper and will lift some skirts compared the $35k Honda example.
Now, I realize I have said nothing about local competition or that purpose built cars may not get spousal approval or any of the other reasons mentioned. I'm just saying that I personally would have a hard time justifying to myself or my friends that spending that kind of money on an IT Whatchamacallit vs. a thoroughbred race car.
JeffYoung
New member
Tom, that's a good point. Here are my thoughts on this.
It's probably always been true with S cars that more money has been spent on a front running effort than many people would spend on an S car. Why? Because it offers many the ONLY place to race some of these cars. SPO is basically Nascar stockers. If you want to run a World-Challenge "like" car, no luck.
In my view, there will always be people, via marque loyalty or otherwise (some may see it as a limited feeder into World Challenge or Grand Am, something Speedsource and BWorld and Flatout have certainly proven) that want something you can't get with an SPO car. I mean, right now, there are $50k BMW and close to RX7 builds out there in ITS. Hell, I probably have $25k in my car over 3 years.
In looking at all that SCCA has to offer, right now, I would say that ITR would be my choice. Production allows too many modifications. ITR has the widest array of fast GT cars, sports cars and sedans from the last 15 years that I can race with minimal mods, but enough to make the engineering side of it fun. ITR also offers a lot of speed. We've debated this in the "star chamber" but the estimates on a speed gap with ITS range from a minimum of two seconds to as much as 5-7 seconds on some tracks. that's a lot and puts the ITR cars at or above EP levels of speed.
Then, and this is rather "base," but there will always be some people that want to run at the "top." S has people like that, and I have to admit that was one of the reasons I have an S car. ITR will attract those drivers as well.
I'm really looking forward to it.
It's probably always been true with S cars that more money has been spent on a front running effort than many people would spend on an S car. Why? Because it offers many the ONLY place to race some of these cars. SPO is basically Nascar stockers. If you want to run a World-Challenge "like" car, no luck.
In my view, there will always be people, via marque loyalty or otherwise (some may see it as a limited feeder into World Challenge or Grand Am, something Speedsource and BWorld and Flatout have certainly proven) that want something you can't get with an SPO car. I mean, right now, there are $50k BMW and close to RX7 builds out there in ITS. Hell, I probably have $25k in my car over 3 years.
In looking at all that SCCA has to offer, right now, I would say that ITR would be my choice. Production allows too many modifications. ITR has the widest array of fast GT cars, sports cars and sedans from the last 15 years that I can race with minimal mods, but enough to make the engineering side of it fun. ITR also offers a lot of speed. We've debated this in the "star chamber" but the estimates on a speed gap with ITS range from a minimum of two seconds to as much as 5-7 seconds on some tracks. that's a lot and puts the ITR cars at or above EP levels of speed.
Then, and this is rather "base," but there will always be some people that want to run at the "top." S has people like that, and I have to admit that was one of the reasons I have an S car. ITR will attract those drivers as well.
I'm really looking forward to it.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Well it's all about what you like, of course, but i would debate the "trick city" aspect of an NASCAR road race car. NASCAR is not exactly at the leading edge of technology, Tubes, sheets of metal, simple tubular suspension, pushrod V8 with a carburetor....
The leading edge IT cars have advanced data aq systems, prorammable fuel injection and are actually pretty trick if you look closely. Your own car has some trick innovations.
I hear what you're saying,, but I'd rather spend money on a car that races in a class that has a stout top line field. Lots of the other classes are pretty poorly subscribed. I've watched a lot of trick cars do some glorified track days, then take home a trophy.
gran racing
Super Moderator
Yeah, that stuff cracks me up!!! (last year...) "Hey, how's it going Dave? Phew, the track was pretty slippery today but I still managed to win!"
Oh, congrats. My friend and I begin to walk away and I confirm "wasn't he the only one in his class?" "Yup"
"Did he win overall?"
"Nope, just his class"
"Oh. Tough race, huh?"
No really, that's about how it went on not just one race weekend. The even funnier thing was how he talked about how he needed to buy fresh tires quite frequently to stay fast.
benspeed
New member
Dave Gran - you made me laugh my ass off!
I bought a sweet ASA national car for a great price since that series folded up. I've been running ITS for 5 years and poured a ton of $$ into the car to keep it healthy and running up front. The SPO/NASCAR play should be a good one for reliability. The cost to run these cars are actually the same or less than an ITS car. Parts are beyond pletiful and pretty cheap. Motor options are unlimited.
But I was laughing my ass off about the "man, had to buy new tires to stay at the front of my single car class..." That's what I'm worried about. After running in groups of 20+ ITS cars I"m not sure how I'll feel running against 5 SPO guys. My goals will be to win overall which means beating the GT-1 Trans Am cars - not that likely but we'll see. I haven't sold the ITS car yet and I wont try too hard to sell it until I'm sure I like the new class.
To the guys who don't think these stockers aren't trick city - swing by and checkout the BigSpeed Monte Carlo - it is beyond trick. And it'll run with a 911 twin turbo any day of the week.
I race for fun and especially the good competition. ITS, ITA and the Miata classes are the most competitve (OK SRF and Formula V are in there too). But ITS is getting out of control expensive. No fake, I was getting ready to do the $50K ITS bimmer until I realized that the contraversy around those cars was only heating up. I have a full blown SPO car for $12K plus another $3K to convert it to RR. These cars can be found without looking too hard for under $20K plus the RR conversion.
For the money a purpose built car is better than running a full blown Rabbit. (But if I'm the only guy out there in SPO - that's gonna get friggin borning fast.)
I bought a sweet ASA national car for a great price since that series folded up. I've been running ITS for 5 years and poured a ton of $$ into the car to keep it healthy and running up front. The SPO/NASCAR play should be a good one for reliability. The cost to run these cars are actually the same or less than an ITS car. Parts are beyond pletiful and pretty cheap. Motor options are unlimited.
But I was laughing my ass off about the "man, had to buy new tires to stay at the front of my single car class..." That's what I'm worried about. After running in groups of 20+ ITS cars I"m not sure how I'll feel running against 5 SPO guys. My goals will be to win overall which means beating the GT-1 Trans Am cars - not that likely but we'll see. I haven't sold the ITS car yet and I wont try too hard to sell it until I'm sure I like the new class.
To the guys who don't think these stockers aren't trick city - swing by and checkout the BigSpeed Monte Carlo - it is beyond trick. And it'll run with a 911 twin turbo any day of the week.
I race for fun and especially the good competition. ITS, ITA and the Miata classes are the most competitve (OK SRF and Formula V are in there too). But ITS is getting out of control expensive. No fake, I was getting ready to do the $50K ITS bimmer until I realized that the contraversy around those cars was only heating up. I have a full blown SPO car for $12K plus another $3K to convert it to RR. These cars can be found without looking too hard for under $20K plus the RR conversion.
For the money a purpose built car is better than running a full blown Rabbit. (But if I'm the only guy out there in SPO - that's gonna get friggin borning fast.)
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
I understand that if there is a particular make or model of inherently fast mass produced car you want to race and do so within a rather restrictive rule set of IT the SCCA needs a class like ITR in order to provide a means for you to do so. Also, there are some very innovative bits and pieces that can be added or exchanged on IT cars. I know that labor can be upwards of 2/3 the cost of a professional build and is probably the majority of some of the prices quoted in this thread. And racing in a well subscribed class is one of the main reasons I chose to buy an IT car.
All that said I personally could not justify that level of expensive on a car that for the most part was already built when it rolled off the production line. Given the rule set for IT and what it allows you to remove/replace/modify I can’t see the technology there. Since we live by the credo, IIDSYCYC (I think I got that right), what are these big bucks buying?
I personally don’t care for NASCAR all that much since most of my drivers were killed during the early ‘90’s, but I liked to use it as an example in this case. The same argument would apply to Formula as well. Anyway, you’re right that NASCAR is only “tubes, sheets of metal, simple tubular suspension, pushrod V8 with a carburetor....” but it is all equipment that we are not allowed to use in order to keep the cost of racing IT reasonable. It is also equipment that someone had to design for, purchase and put together and that’s what you’re paying for when you buy purpose built cars. For the life of me I can’t think of what are you paying for on the high dollar IT car that’s not in the SPO? Data? Got it. Programmable FI? Nope, but damn that’s some pretty high dollar FI.
What do you get in the SPO that’s not in the IT car? I don’t have time to list all the pure racing equipment that goes into one of those bad boys, so I’ll leave it to your imagination since that’s the rule set those guys work within. And that’s the point I can’t get past. Look at some examples.
Asphalt Race Cars
If I had the $ some of these guys are spending on ITS when I was looking maybe I would have went another route.
All that said I personally could not justify that level of expensive on a car that for the most part was already built when it rolled off the production line. Given the rule set for IT and what it allows you to remove/replace/modify I can’t see the technology there. Since we live by the credo, IIDSYCYC (I think I got that right), what are these big bucks buying?
I personally don’t care for NASCAR all that much since most of my drivers were killed during the early ‘90’s, but I liked to use it as an example in this case. The same argument would apply to Formula as well. Anyway, you’re right that NASCAR is only “tubes, sheets of metal, simple tubular suspension, pushrod V8 with a carburetor....” but it is all equipment that we are not allowed to use in order to keep the cost of racing IT reasonable. It is also equipment that someone had to design for, purchase and put together and that’s what you’re paying for when you buy purpose built cars. For the life of me I can’t think of what are you paying for on the high dollar IT car that’s not in the SPO? Data? Got it. Programmable FI? Nope, but damn that’s some pretty high dollar FI.
What do you get in the SPO that’s not in the IT car? I don’t have time to list all the pure racing equipment that goes into one of those bad boys, so I’ll leave it to your imagination since that’s the rule set those guys work within. And that’s the point I can’t get past. Look at some examples.
Asphalt Race Cars
If I had the $ some of these guys are spending on ITS when I was looking maybe I would have went another route.
Bill Miller
New member
Now THERE'S a term I haven't heard in 30 years!!
Davey Allison and Alan Kulwicki in small aircraft, J.D McDuffie at Watkins Glen in '91, Neil Bonnet at Daytona practice in '94 ('95?), and a kid, whose name I have forgotten, in a street car while speeding on a public highway about 10 years ago. And, of course, Dale Earnhardt in 2001. Gone are the days of drivers who give interviews if they feel like it. NASCAR wanted to shed the "baccy-chewin', sister-huggin', squirrel-huntin', redneck image" and gave us media boys. I long for the days of the Donnie Allison-Cale Yarbrough donnybrook. Jeff Gordon pushing Matt Kenseth was like watching Potsie take a shot at Napoleon Dynamite.
Now, Biffle's girl wagging her finger
at Kurt Busch's girl.... Speaking of Kurt Busch.... did he get his ears pinned back over the winter? 
Back to ITR.
I have not seen the list of proposed cars. And there have been a few, "What about the [my dog in this fight]?" As I mentioned before, there are some orphaned cars out there (some not IT appropriate) that need a place to go after Touring/Showroom Stock. If those are included, we may get the support of the Touring/SS community with the CRB. And if Production takes the Touring/SS castoffs that don't fit into the IT philosphy, another part of the equation is solved. The IT community can make recommendations for a new class but SCCA needs to take a broad, comprehensive look at all of the production-based racers. When a car gets classed in Touring there should be a proposed path for that vehicle for IT, Prod, and GT. Had this been done in the past, SCCA would have already had plans for the ITR class. T3 was in response to the BMW Z4 which was protested by the SSB Miata crowd at the 2003 Runoffs and not allowed to run. 2004 Runoffs saw a Z4 take SSB. Will the Z4 be in ITS or ITR? (Z3 is in ITA)
TURN RANT ON!
I think a bigger part of this issue is some of the people who run SCCA at different levels. Without drivers (Club Racing, Solo, Rally), there is no reason for T&S, F&C, Registration, Sound Control, etc. Take your sound meter to the track and tell me what the crickets and locusts register. We, as drivers and owners, need to infiltrate the leadership. Look around. How many of the people who are in charge at the Regional, Divisional and National levels are current or former racers? In some cases, not enough.
How about this? On a 9 member board, let's have designated seats for specific classes. E-F-G-H Prod (but no Spridget guys
) and IT(R-S-A-B-C). Screw Formula and SM 
OK, maybe not such a drastic tack. A fair representation of drivers elected by their constituents, a democratic republic. But it would be nice to get away from the church auxiliary model that is SCCA in many places. How many times have you heard, "We've never done it that way before," or "I don't think we can do that" ?RANT OFF!
Bill Miller
New member
You're probably talking about Robby Moroso. And don't forget Davey and Clifford Allison (and I know there are others that I can't think of). IIRC, J.D. McDuffy was one of the last, true independents. Spun wrenches on his own car, etc.
Having built, maintainted, and/or driven SCCA cars from an ITC Renault to a Formula Atlantic Ralt - and a bunch of stuff in between - I'm more than comfortable saying that the ONLY reason that ANY formula car, sports racer, GT, or Production car might be more affordable to run than ANY IT car, is that the level of competition is lower.
When the guy for whom we managed the Ralt wanted to do something that scared his wife less, we did a complete feasibility study of a conservative, circle-track-based GT1/TransAm car (this was pre-current T/A rules, so the differences were negligable), we learned that our rosy estimates - like those above - were WAY outside of reality. And that was in 1990 racing dollars.
I've been sucked into the cool factor thing and, once my head cleared, jumped right the hell back out. A $12K SPO car is about as "full blown" as would be an archtypical $1200 ITC Rabbit, to put things into a currency familiar to folks here. If there were only 5 ITC entrants, a guy could finish in the top five with that Rabbit, easy.
But then, we all make our choices based on what we think is important.
K
When the guy for whom we managed the Ralt wanted to do something that scared his wife less, we did a complete feasibility study of a conservative, circle-track-based GT1/TransAm car (this was pre-current T/A rules, so the differences were negligable), we learned that our rosy estimates - like those above - were WAY outside of reality. And that was in 1990 racing dollars.
I've been sucked into the cool factor thing and, once my head cleared, jumped right the hell back out. A $12K SPO car is about as "full blown" as would be an archtypical $1200 ITC Rabbit, to put things into a currency familiar to folks here. If there were only 5 ITC entrants, a guy could finish in the top five with that Rabbit, easy.
But then, we all make our choices based on what we think is important.
K
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
Wow, not a whole lot of room allowed there for exceptions so I'm not going to bother with quoting any as I feel they detract from the point trying to be made anyway. I would agree that Formula, GT/SPO and Sports Racer in general are more $ to run than IT in general. My point was I can’t see spending $35k for a Honda or $50k for a BMW that is for all practical purposes is a lightly modified street car? It started out as basic transportation and the rules dictate that it shall remain that way with a few exceptions. Hey, maybe I’m crazy that way, I don’t know.
K, maybe in the modern era of stock car racing, due to it's overwhelming popularity with everyone from spectators to the sponsors that want their attention, it’s possible that stock car packages are cheaper than they were 16 years ago. Things can change over that period of time based on supply and demand. Apparently, according to the multitude of cars available at the site I linked, not only are stock car packages cheaper there's also a hell of a lot of them. And that was one of several sites that sell these types of cars. I did not find that to be the case last year w/IT. S&D also applies to engines and trannys for V-8 powered cars. It’s sick how cheap a Chevy small block build can be done for these days. Unfortunately, most cars were way over the $15k I had budgeted for a car and trailer, hence the IT7.
I will agree with you that GT1 is ridiculously expensive no matter what you do. FA is that way too. It comes from one-off or very limited production parts. I have one friend that switched from GT1 to GTA because of it. Another upgraded to FA last November and is already experiencing the financial reality of just keeping it on the track.
And you’re right again in that winning in a heavily subscribed class speaks magnitudes about your driving skill compared to the others. Personally, I am happy just trying to chase down anybody in the group that’s ahead of me. Also, I wish I was not affected by the “cool factor” but maybe I’m just weak. One thing though, I dunno about the ITC Rabbit and an SPO being equally cool or full blown. I just can’t agree with ya there at any price. The rules just don’t allow it.
K, maybe in the modern era of stock car racing, due to it's overwhelming popularity with everyone from spectators to the sponsors that want their attention, it’s possible that stock car packages are cheaper than they were 16 years ago. Things can change over that period of time based on supply and demand. Apparently, according to the multitude of cars available at the site I linked, not only are stock car packages cheaper there's also a hell of a lot of them. And that was one of several sites that sell these types of cars. I did not find that to be the case last year w/IT. S&D also applies to engines and trannys for V-8 powered cars. It’s sick how cheap a Chevy small block build can be done for these days. Unfortunately, most cars were way over the $15k I had budgeted for a car and trailer, hence the IT7.
I will agree with you that GT1 is ridiculously expensive no matter what you do. FA is that way too. It comes from one-off or very limited production parts. I have one friend that switched from GT1 to GTA because of it. Another upgraded to FA last November and is already experiencing the financial reality of just keeping it on the track.
And you’re right again in that winning in a heavily subscribed class speaks magnitudes about your driving skill compared to the others. Personally, I am happy just trying to chase down anybody in the group that’s ahead of me. Also, I wish I was not affected by the “cool factor” but maybe I’m just weak. One thing though, I dunno about the ITC Rabbit and an SPO being equally cool or full blown. I just can’t agree with ya there at any price. The rules just don’t allow it.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Well, Tom, you can always add "cool" to your car with a cool Data aq package that comes with a display. Even cooler at night. And of course you can use the requisite laptop to watch in car racing stufff that you recorded with your cool digital memory device and bullet cams.
And when you're done with this car, you can always move the stuff to the next car, which is a cool money justification!
And when you're done with this car, you can always move the stuff to the next car, which is a cool money justification!