The new ITA class

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Ok Darin, show me some data that support your claim that the stock hp numers are wrong. Pretty easy out, to question the stock numbers when you don't like the story they tell. I looked at the Summit Point numbers over the last 5 years, the fastest Rabbit GTI runs about where the top ITC cars are (1:33). BTW, what's stock power on an L16?

Asok,

You want the car moved, ask.


[This message has been edited by Bill Miller (edited April 21, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Ok Darin, show me some data that support your claim that the stock hp numers are wrong. Pretty easy out, to question the stock numbers when you don't like the story they tell.
Click to expand...

Bill... give me a break... you should know by now that I NEVER take the "easy way out"... pretty much everything I do is the hard way... If I had wanted the easy way out, I'd have ignored you...

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
BTW, what's stock power on an L16?
Click to expand...

The 510 L16 is listed at 96hp from the factory. Consulted experts say that these can make around 115hp in IT trim... or about a 20-25% improvement.

Using that same process... and assuming even a 30% improvement in power for the 1.6VW, are you really trying to convince me that it only makes 97hp?? That would give the car a 20:1 wt/pwr ratio, compared to an 18.8 for the 510... The 510 should walk away in the straight, but it doesn't. On any given day, a VW will compete quite handily with a 510.

This is why I question the stock HP numbers...

Don't you find it curious how these German cars, like other German cars, seem to perform at a level higher than what their factory specs would indicate?

With Chris Albin on the ITAC, and Mark Coffin only an e-mail away, as well as other sources for reference who have first hand knowledge of these cars, do you really think we'd take the time to move the 1.7 and leave the 1.8 if we didn't think that there was good reason to do so?

Jordan OUT!
wink.gif



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited April 21, 2004).]
 
Kinda like the Corvette vs. Camaro. Show me the dyno numbers not the numbers that the manufacturer published.

I don't think Darin is saying that people are lying, but that the published numbers may not be accurate.

And in defense of Darin, I do have to say that it is pretty increadible that he is willing to put his neck on the line here as he constantly does. Many people would simply ignore the IT forum or at least topics such as these, but he doesn't. Regardless if you agree with him or not (and I personally do for the most part) you at least have to respect he helps shed light on what is going on and why.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
Originally posted by oanglade:

The Escort is listed at 2430 lbs and the Mazda at 2510 lbs.
(Both are candidates for ITA-LITE with the MR2, RX-7, etc.
smile.gif
)
Click to expand...

ITA-LITE - I kinda like that. It really isn't such a bad idea. A class filled with cars that are too slow for ITA, but we're too scared to blow up ITB with. It would probably be one of the largest IT classes. It could also be ITO for IT Old Skool. :P
 
BTW, I've been racing more and more with EMRA instead of SCCA. Their IT-type classing system is much like the SCCA, but my car for some odd reason fits in a class that sits between ITA and ITB.

ST-1 = ITS
ST-2 = ITA
ST-3 = (where my MR2 and the AE86 is classed)
ST-4 = ITB
ST-5 = ITC
 
Jake,
Is there a link for EMRA, where we can look at the classifications? It sounds like we were going to come up with the same conclusions - why not use their solution as a thought starter? I know of many mid engine (fiero, MR2) and RX7 owners that believe they've just found a home.

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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61
 
Not so sure you'll want to hear this, but your RX7 was in ST2 as of 2003 (probably still will be in 2004). EMRA is updating the classifications and will post them shortly - they are a bit outdated and not all cars listed in the various classes are still in those classes. I do know the 7 was in ST2 last year though. But you should still check to see what happens when they update their classes....

www.emraracing.org

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
Are EMRAs rules identical to IT specs for their ST classes?

EMRA is a cool organization, but they don't put on too many races. And NASA has nothing in the New England area. SCCA is pretty much it for us around here.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
EMRA is a very good organization, and is a nice alternative for people in the Northeast.

Jake,

Bob Kress and I were the ones that were responsible for getting the AW11 moved from ST2 to ST3. At the time, we were the only two that were running those cars. I thought I heard that Bob wrecked his car last year, and was getting out of it.

As far as EMRA's ST rules compared to IT goes, yes, they're close, but there are some crucial differences. The first one is that there is no weight spec for EMRA classes. You can get the car as light as possible. Second, all cars get to run 10.5:1 compression, or .5 point over stock, if stock is >10. Third, EMRA has the concept of modifications and class 'bumps'. You are allowed a certain number of 'exceptions' (I believe 2), before you car is moved up to the next higher class.

The EMRA classification sheet is VERY old (I belive the AW11 MR2 is still listed in ST2). I don't think it's been updated in at least 5-7 years. I'm glad they're finally getting around to it. It used to be that the classes were approx. ITS - ITD, w/ some blending/crossover at the boundries. I think now, it's shifted a bit. They also have 6 classes, w/ STGT at the top of the heap. I can go into more detail if someone would like, but I have to go to work now.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Jake,
As Bill said there is more you are allowed to do with your car with EMRA. BUT I know you would do very well with them as your car is.

Mr. MR2 Jake and I usually go the the Glen and LRP events - definately different than SCCA but really a lot of fun. See you at the May SCCA race...

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
all you rotary haters out there should love this one, my engine builder informed me yesterday he was going to have to use my old worn rotor housings because for almost 2 months Mazda has the 79-85 rx7 12a rotor housings listed as NLA, yes thats "NO LONGER AVAILABLE" since there are no aftermarkets we have no choice but to go with the still available rx3 12a housing which are interchangable, with a bump in HP of say 10. yes ill be sending that letter to the CRB today. I will also call maz comp and ask that they supercede that part number to speed the changeover.

[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited April 23, 2004).]
 
just checked, stock 79-85 12a rotor housings pulled from menu completely.
 
Mazda says they may go back into production once a large stock of rx8 housings are in place, hmmm, in the meanwhile..
 
As for a vintage series. the only one we know of is HSR.They are kinda an outlaw/unlimited vintage group.IE former winston cup/trans_am vs IMSA GTU RX-7....
dan-o
 
I don't think so Kirk, most vintage organizations require that the car be from '73 or earlier, or 25 years old minimun, and have racing history, before they will consider adding it to the list. The Volvo historic series was looser, but still a no go...

As Dan-O says, the racing history issue is most often the issue.

And of course, most vintage bodies on these shores operate under the 13/13 rule, which puts them half way between lapping and racing.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Boy this thread has been all over the place.

Warning! Rant coming. If you don't feel like possibly getting your shorts in a wad skip this post.

The fact that a club has rules against contact makes it somewhere between a lapping day and racing? Don't almost all clubs have rules against contact? Okay, so is it the penalty? Can't the SCCA suspend you for 2 months and put you on probation for 6 months for a single offense? So what does that make them?

SCCA, VARA, HSR, OWRS, IRL, F1; they all have rules against contact, they all have penalties, some of which are quite $tiff.

Maybe vintage racing creates visions of gentlemen putzing around in a parade, moving over and pointing anyone by who begins to fill their mirrors. I assure you that is not the way it is. It is people racing sometimes very expensive and/or unique cars where it isn't acceptable for Johnny Newcomer (who's been watching all the NASCRAP he can find for the past 10 years) to come out to the track and show us that rubbin' is racin'.

I have raced open wheel, closed wheel, pavement, clay, oval, road course, vintage and non-vintage. I am quite capable of banging my way around someone in front of me. It really doesn't take much skill to move someone out of your way.

While it may be fun, when all participants are willing, it sure isn't racing in my book.
If the fact that an organization frowns on it makes you want to race elsewhere then maybe you should race where (A) it is encouraged, (B) speeds are low enough that injury is not likely and © the car is cheap enough that you can have another one ready next Saturday night.

It is tons more difficult to pressure someone into making a mistake, or racing them through a corner or series of them cleanly, to complete a pass than it is to nudge someone out of the way.

Good racing,

--Daryl (Race me clean and hard. Try to punt me and I'll put you in the %^&%&^ weeds) DeArman

had to borrow your MO Raymond.

on edit--you thought my spelling an grammar was poor when I am not ranting!

[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited April 28, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited April 28, 2004).]
 
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