Time to write those letters - Head and Neck Restraints

No problem (and I think Dick thinks the same).

The only point I'm trying to make is that the level of discourse here and on the Brownboard (I hate the word "Sandbox") I think really is doing our sport a disservice. I've talked to a lot of people in the paddock who read these forums but won't post and really feel like the perception is that IT racing is in disarray, and a mess, etc. when it really seems very healthy to me.

On top of that, these forums are one of the things that work to burn leadership out. You can only try to explain why you did something (that others disagree with) so many times, and getting called unethical or immoral for doing something you (as a volunteer) thought right gets tiresome.

I might be wrong, but I really think this place was a lot more positive and a lot more informative back in 05/06 when I was starting. But it might just be a case of the "good ole days" syndrom.

tom91ita said:
i removed the comment that Dick and Jeff called inappropriate. i respect their opinion on this board too much to not think they may be right.

i still feel that was happened was not acceptable but did not mean to infer that the folks involved were immoral or unethical.

i have no doubt that the people doing what they are doing are sincere and have the best interests of the club in mind. which is one reason it is so hard to use numbers to convince them.

basically, you cannot use objective criteria to convince folks that are using subjective criteria to decide. again, i am not trying to insult but am falling back on some long ago supervisory training. you can't use one mode to influence if someone is not influenced by that mode. if i took a few minutes i might find a website that could say this better than i.

sorry to offend.

tom
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I might be wrong, but I really think this place was a lot more positive and a lot more informative back in 05/06 when I was starting. But it might just be a case of the "good ole days" syndrom.
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Jeff,

i would actually tend to agree with you. my general take is that the more involved one tries to be, the more frustrated one can become.

my racing took a hiatus once before in 97 when my wife died of cancer. a few years later, i attended the first honda challenge east coast vs. west coast race in mid-ohio. they had H5 for my car and were to have national championships at mid-ohio. i jumped in and gave it a try.

about the same time, the ITA to ITB move happened for my car. hey, now i have a shot and i got more involved with scca again. started being more active with regards to racing, some crewing/watching/drinking and some actual wrenching crewing.

raced some local ITB and won a few races. then started focusing on Big events like IT Fest and the ARRC a couple of times. the first ARRC i attended, i met a bunch of the NE guys, Greg, Jake, etc. and was like WOW, Road Atalanta is on my bucket list!

last year i attended/crewed at the runoffs at Road America and again was WOW! now i learn that i can join another club that runs at Road America (MCSCC) and will allow Isaacs.

so for this year and the immediate future (?), i could meet my desires of a couple of local races and a major track like Road America and use my existing non SFI 38.1 H&NR.

i don't need the policy / grief side of this in my life and will try to restrict comments and questions to car prep and driver technique. that was where my initial interests were in the first place.

if you are ever in the midwest and need a honda centric/tire thumper of a crew guy/beer gofer, let me know.
 
I've just heard through one of my suppliers that Innovative Safety Technology is going to cease production of the DefNder. anyone else hear anything about this? I know HANS sued them ~2 years ago, could this be the result?

Gregg - the group that approved the ISAAC (RSI?) what's their story? could we get in touch about some things safety related but not H&R? we;re both in orlando, I'll buy the beer.
 
Eric Parham said:
Gregg, could you point us to a link for RSI spec 602?

Has SCCA (BOD rather than CRB?) been formally asked to list safety equipment meeting the above RSI spec as an official option to the SFI 38.1 (a.k.a. HANS) devices?
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Well, to answer my own question, I did find this link: http://www.racingsafetyinstitute.org/Head and Neck Restraints.html

I don't actually see the HNR test set-up described in much detail -- the harness test set-up has more. But perhaps it would be obvious to one better versed in this stuff. I'll send my request in to the BOD anyway, including the above link.
 
I think we are killing club racing with costs. .Think about the racer who sits out for a couple of years. Think of the costs; Physical, drivers school, Seat bracket, door bars, new belts, maybe a new helmet, and new HANS. Easily a $1000 just to do a couple of races per year. People don't many excuses to sell their car and go fishing. I am trying to get my recent grad cousin to get a car, and these costs are very real hindrance

For those that think this gear is required, please investigate NASCAR late model. We have 40 of those cars every saturday at our track. 100 mph, 400 hp cars on a 5/8 oval with concrete walls. No HANS, no driver schools, no physical, no belts rule, and you can run a 1995 helmet. With our sinking trends of turnouts, SCCA will be very safe soon because regionals will be gone and the cost of racing will be the cause. Here's the NASCAR rulebook http://www.lacrossespeedway.com/pdfs/latemodels_01.pdf
 
It's all about fears of lawsuits and following the herd. I'm against the mandate, but don't see SCCA not going forward with this rule. Sucks IMO.
 
I agree with Dave. It does seem inevitable that the SCCA will go mandatory H&R requirements. And I also agree it will drive down new membership. Its expensive enough to go racing, now throw on an extra half a grand or more in safety equipment....sheesh.

BTW : In my quest for info to do some vintage racing I found this. In SVRA they mandated H&N restraints......not anymore.

http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.nsf/attachmentweb/SVRA-8EWKVH/$file/Technical+Bulletin+004.pdf?OpenElement
 
Seems to mean that as an affiliate sanctioning body, they may have a greater say about the specifications that they publish, and that they have the right to require the use of equipment that has been certified by a manufacturer as being compliant to SFI specifications - does not mean that they have to use the specs.
 
My thought was if they have this status, there would be even more likelyhood of mandating the SFI requirement which makes quite interesting.
 
Before you all get wound up in a tizzy about SVRA, I simply offer this view of SVRA @ Watkins Glen in Sept 2010 -
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John, that is an unfair representation of a typical SVRA car, besides prewar cars were always exempt from H&N requirements under SVRA rules.
 
dickita15 said:
John, that is an unfair representation of a typical SVRA car, besides prewar cars were always exempt from H&N requirements under SVRA rules.
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I made no claim that these were typical SVRA competitors...but they were (and likely continue to be...) SVRA competitors. SVRA has exempted some of their classes from H&N rules...so their lifting of the mandate for the rest of their classes can't be considered a significant walk-back in their safety requirements. They have a more-conditional safety rules package than pretty much any other sanctioning organization in the US. Rollbars ? Not in every class. Rollcages ? Not in every class.

Cutting thru all the mumbo-jumbo...it's clear to me that they've decided that their cost to defend against future litigation is less than the impact of H&N requirements on their future business. Good for them. If I got that same advice, I'd do the same thing. Haven't gotten that advice.
 
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There are many areas that SCCA could worry about litigation. Requiring an FIA seat to have a steel brace attached to the roll bar (which wasn't part of the FIA testing), number of heart attack deaths, how a seat is mounted to the car, and so on. It's all about risk management and not driving away membership.
 
gran racing said:
There are many areas that SCCA could worry about litigation. Requiring an FIA seat to have a steel brace attached to the roll bar (which wasn't part of the FIA testing), number of heart attack deaths, how a seat is mounted to the car, and so on. It's all about risk management and not driving away membership.
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Don't forget not requiring window net replacement on a 2-year interval...

On a related note I found this on the BMW board:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21909536&postcount=86
Last year I requested a CR rule clarification on the expiration of (Safety Solutions) R3
tethers. At a 2010 club race a tech inspector had told me that since there was no date on my R3 tethers, I'd have to replace them. I then contacted Safety Solutions and they said that R3 tethers don't expire. My rule clarification request remains unaddressed.

Fast forward to present day. I just had an email exchange with Safety Solutions and they have restated that their tethers don't expire, and further, there's nothing in SFI 38.1 that requires the expiration of HNR tethers, whatever brand.

I'm a simple boy and this is somewhat confusing. On the one hand CR is mandating a tether expiration date because of SFI and on the other Safety Solutions says that 38.1 mandates no such thing. What am I missing here?

Somewhat related...Safety Solutions also said that next year 38.1 is going to say that HNR's have a 5yr life and will then have to be "recertified" by the mfr and get a new SFI sticker.
 
Z3_GoCar said:
Safety Solutions also said that next year 38.1 is going to say that HNR's have a 5yr life and will then have to be "recertified" by the mfr and get a new SFI sticker.
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Mo money. I had an older HANS "retrocertified" (they inspected it and stuck a sticker on it) and it was about $15 plus shipping (both ways). Of course, that didn't include any parts that needed replacing to get that "recertification" ("New tethers and anchors may be required")...I ended up spending about $125.

I'm sure all the Isaac owners are having a lot of empathy now for the DeFnder owners that are about to get butt-plugged...

We're all gonna be so safe now.
 
Greg Amy said:
Mo money. I had an older HANS "retrocertified" (they inspected it and stuck a sticker on it) and it was about $15 plus shipping (both ways). Of course, that didn't include any parts that needed replacing to get that "recertification" ("New tethers and anchors may be required")...I ended up spending about $125.

I'm sure all the Isaac owners are having a lot of empathy now for the DeFnder owners that are about to get butt-plugged...

We're all gonna be so safe now.
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So they inspect the anchors? How? And decide if they are "good to go" another couple of years?. Weird. This is the same company that suggests that:
"Anecdotal reports indicate the HANS Device offers benefits even when worn under a 3-point OEM style of seatbelt. The user must also be wearing a helmet with HANS Device anchors on it.'"
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(form the FAQ section of their website:http://hansdevice.com/s.nl/sc.5/category.22/.f

So....in order for the thing to work, it MIGHT need new billet aluminum anchors, cuz, you know, they might have worn out from all the use...yet, your HANS will help even if you don't have stnadard racing belts!? Huh? (Insert joke about racing belts flying off HANS units anyway.....)
What am I missing. :shrug:
 
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