Trying for Nationwide Crap Can class unity

Flyinglizard

Flyinglizard

New member
SCCA is running the "Crapcans" under some ITJ rules. Before it gets too far. I have some guidelines based upon performance of the actual cars running in Chumpcar. This a one post on the Chumpcar forum,.

I have sent the rules, along with classes recommendations, to a few RE.
I have the 2.3 and under class as CCU- Includes the Ford Mustangs.
I wanted the 2.4 litre Nissan in the CCO class(2.4 - 3.1)6 Cyl- E 30,
Anything over 3.1, or a non stock power train,( swapped ,boosted etc ) is in CCX.
All 6 cyl E 36

I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both. That is done on a one to one basis and needs some references . I have no trouble giving a solid reference for anyone that we have raced with in the SE. The SCCA racers that run with us may also.
I will not give a good reference for any driver that moves off line for a passing car, as that is unpredictable and unsafe. Taking a corner deep and giving up the apex with a point is fine.

The easier the cross over for the car and racers is good for the racers. The track time /cost will get more competitive as more groups try for the smaller amount of cash still left in our pockets . The sanctions that treats the customers the best will survive. That includes listening to bitchin and new ideas. Absurd aint it.

PS the safety values are a little higher than IT rules. Pretty much, any tubing inside the firewalls is legal. Sill tabs, A pillar tabs, are encouraged. Chumpcar still allows 1 PS door bar tho, for some reason. Against my recommendation.
No tubing past the wheel hubs either end, except for the little Hondas with no other room. This is to maintain the stock crush zones. Fire systems are mandated for 2014 .
Most of the cars run the stock fuel tank. I like a cell for any car with the stock tank within 20in of the rear bumper. But the rules dont specify that .MM
 
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The E-36 came with a 1.9l (CCU), a 2.5/2.8L (CCO) and the first year M3 was a 3.0L(CCO), the only E-36 that falls in CCX is the 96 and later M3's and they won't be competitive with anything with a LS-x.
 
Thanks. The E 30- 6 runs CCO, the E36-6 runs CCX.
The M44 and 42 cars are slow enough to run the CC class. Turn in nice tho.
Each class should also have a tire max, but Chump does not. maybe CCU 225, CCo, 245, CCX 275.
The Demoines region shows to have the ITJ and does Portland . But both websites are a little poor as far as finding any rules.
 
Flyinglizard said:
Thanks. The E 30- 6 runs CCO, the E36-6 runs CCX.
The M44 and 42 cars are slow enough to run the CC class. Turn in nice tho.
Each class should also have a tire max, but Chump does not. maybe CCU 225, CCo, 245, CCX 275.
The Demoines region shows to have the ITJ and does Portland . But both websites are a little poor as far as finding any rules.
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It's crapcan as whole - call it ITJ and be done with it, don't overcomplicate it. Performance capabilites and crapcan shouldn't be in the same paragraph. besides, the idea is to give the drivers a place to run, it's not about the cars.
 
Chumpcar's lack of performance rules and car rules are why some of those teams are interested in SCCA.
Chumpcar came to start as a result of SCCA rules and regs, along with track time cost .( as well as down time over the weekend for 2hr of track time.This last part we will need to address in the future ).

So to address this large market ,we should address the shortcomings of Chump. ( AS chump has addressed the shortcomings of SCCA. )

1) Lack of classes, along with allowing the E 30 and 36 to race heads up with the little real 500$ cars .
The above classes address much of that. One class will not work for any long term . The little cars will stay home, as they are doing now in Chump.

2)lack of tire size rule, same result , big power can be applied .

There is a market for these cars with some loose rules to have a good time in SCCA.

They spend a lot of money to run Chump. Many teams would have a few races with SCCA. Many SCCA cars can run Chump also..
 
I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both
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Are you fucking high? Sorry, that might be a bit harsh, but it was my first reaction.

I tell people how great crap can racing is. I also tell them that all you need in order to go racing is to be able to walk up to the table w/ not too much assistance, show a drivers license that has a picture that you resemble and most importantly, kick over 50 bucks.

I don't mind racing against people who bought a license this way, but only when I'm driving another crap can car. I can't say I'm excited about going out to start a sprint race, or a long endurance race knowing that the guy next to me, or in front of me, has had exactly zero race starts to his/her credit. Remember that an SCCA license (or novice permit) allows you to go race anything from ITC to Formula Atlantic. A crap-can license allows you to drive a crap-can. They are slow, so it is easier to deal w/ poor driving.

The last Lemons race I did the car got hit at least 3 times in manners that were pretty unlikely to happen w/ people who had some track experience (always people coming in from way outside w/o looking to see that there was someone inside of them). We got sent home for too many trips to the penalty box that day yet we were the hit-ees. If that kind of driving starts happening at IT races, I'll move on to other things.

Do I sound pretty arrogant and elitist? I'm sure I do. But I doubt I'm alone.

The Idea of having nation wide rules stability is great. More cars means more competition. That is great. I don't see that there is much parity in crap-can these days. Anything we can do to get more people to show up w/ cars to race is a good thing. But I'm (obviously) leery of the licensing thing.
 
Lemons is not Chumpcar by a long shot. Many Chumpcar drivers have lots of tracktime and racing experience. We have never been hit in the 80+hrs of Chump racing. The drivers have been considerate and head up for the most part. Not a big difference From SCCA. Way less contact than SM or SRF.
 
Flyinglizard said:
I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both. That is done on a one to one basis and needs some references . I have no trouble giving a solid reference for anyone that we have raced with in the SE. The SCCA racers that run with us may also.
I will not give a good reference for any driver that moves off line for a passing car, as that is unpredictable and unsafe. Taking a corner deep and giving up the apex with a point is fine.
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Remember that we already have provisions in place that allow the race school officials to waive a second school for reasons such as "prior racing experience". I don't think there's a need to give someone the automatic expectation that they'll be waivered in.

Your proposed automatic waiving of schools:
Driver comes in expecting to be waivered. "Goes thru the motions" during the school, as he/she knows it's just a formality. If they then perform poorly (due to lack of skill, or simply attitude and not taking it seriously), the school has two choices- pass the driver and hope for the best, or recommend a second school and piss that driver off to no end. If, during the school, they are "counseled" by instructors, it's not likely to be taken well, since they feel they'll just deal with this crap and let us collect our money to license them.

Current system:
We make it known that prior racing experience can be used as a basis for a waiver request. Those who come, bring the idea (hopefully) that they need to be at the top of their game, so that the waiver can be "earned". In the event of a driver who doesn't demonstrate competency, we suggest that they take another school. Sure, there may be hard feelings, but the driver should not feel he/she had anything taken away that they were "promised".

It isn't a perfect system, but I think the difference in tone is a major point in favor of the current setup. Also, having seen the level of student turned out by the commercial schools in the last year or three, I'm frustrated by the fact that our allowances have tied our hands in situations where someone is not track-ready.

We just need consistency in the administration of the waiver system, so that one area doesn't become the "easy pass", while another takes the stance of "we don't grant waivers at all."
 
Looks like the classes will also carry a tire size rule with the provision that some teams are over on tires and they may run in the next class. CCX will not have a max tire size.
All tires are treadwear 180 or higher. The top running cars are very well done and well driven. Lack of aero rules make for some nice splitters and wings, cut roofs etc.
The lap times are near SM and the top cars are ITR classed or near.
Many Chump teams will use the SCCA PDX,TT days as test days and driver coaching days. AS they do now. FWIW "Chin" gets around 4-5 Chumpcars each event. SCCA could benefit from the inclusion also,. both in the TT groups and race groups. Most Chump teams have at least one EX SCCA racer among them. WE want the EX part fixed..

SCCA has provisions to take these drivers with experience and hand them a novice permit, as it should be. Many have more track time and WTW time in 2 races as most SCCA drivers get n 4 yrs. 4- 8 hr per weekend is not unheard of. The new CRX thing is addressed to these drivers, and TT/race drivers from other sanctions.
The license thing is not my issue , as SCCA has moved to ease the deal anyway.

I will have a "final" provisional rule set in the next week and send it out to the regions, (post national lookssee.) Afew regions have said that they must go to the CRB first , but I dont read the GCR that way. Other than a few safety points, National has no interest or business in this mess.
We all want safety first of course.
 
Crap can rules, R5/13
The intent of these rule guidelines; Allow crapcans to cross over to SCCA with little hassle. The basic car should be able to be purchased for around 1000$
AS long as the car is deemed "safe" they should have a class under these rules. The Normal IT safety rules apply, master switch, brake lights. Most "crapcan" master switches are placed within driver reach, in the center of the car.
Three classes addresses one of the few shortcomings of Chumpcar,IMHO. A stable class structure may slow the speed creep and allow a car to remain competitive for more than a couple of years .
SCCA IT cars are legal and may run with the spec tires,@ IT weight.
Stock throttle body Production cars may be legal, with the spec tires, @ Prod weight..

CCU; 2.3 and under class , 225 max tire width

CCO; class(2.4 - 3.1) E 30 BMW -6 cyl , Honda products with V tec . E 30 must be stock and uncut.
245 max tire width

CrapCan-AM; Anything over 3.1, or a non stock power train,( swapped ,boosted etc )
All 6 cyl E 36. E 36 must be stock and uncut. No max tire size.

Non stock throttle body area; = 1 class bump

Any brakes within 1 in. OD of stock.

All tires; tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Any wheels.

IT fire bottle rules.

Stock tank or fuel cell allowed.
Fuel cell required if tank is less than 20in from rear bumper, IE; BMW 2002, C4 Corvette, etc.

IT cage rules are the minimum. Production Car cage rules encouraged. Any tubing allowed between the front and rear fire walls. Attachment to the sill/rockers are encouraged. Driver side wheel house bar recommended.

No tubing past the wheel hubs.
Some exceptions will occur, small short cars like the Honda, Miata, where the rear stays must go past the wheel hubs.

Open cars; must use arm restraints or some form of roof panel. Cars with no windshield, must use arm restraints.
Driver door must have window net.

Aero; unrestricted. Must be well attached.
3 in ground clearance rule, (includes all aero panels.)

Bodywork; Hood may be gutted and vented but must remain.
Interior Body panels may be lightened.
Trunks, hatches, roofs, may be removed or gutted.
Fenders , doors, rear quarter panels, may be modified but must remain.
Exterior driver door panels may be rolled down.
Glass may be removed. "Lexan" may be used throughout. GCR, Productions sizes.
Anything that can be removed per normal "Crapcan rules" , may be removed. (Everything).
Battery placement is open. must be safe secure and covered.

Nothing is cast in stone. Please reply with suggestions to improve these. And or oversight.
Thanks, Mike Ogren, [email protected]
 
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Mike those rules are about 10% the size of the Chumpcar rules. It's very open and permissive, I think people could build some insane cars and meet these rules, and CrapCan-Am could be the fastest class in the SCCA. Is that really what is intended?
 
Evan, you're right. The E 36 must be uncut and stock throughout. The E30 must be stock and uncut.
The Chump rules have been weak at best. The E36 is the new standard. The Miata was the standard at the start.
We now have 30-40% of the cars are BMW. 80% of the podium cars are BMW.
Chump has 2 -3 swapped V6 MR2 second gen. rocket fast.
Saab 9-3 and 9-5 turbo.
Mercedes 2.5- 3.2 4 valve
Nissan Z32 roadster
The "Riley" team Mazda V6 roadster
Swapped Honda frankencars
Turbo VWs and Hondas
V8 RX7
Lexus V8
BMW E 30 swapped with M50
A few Chevy V8 Malibu ,Camaro, a couple of C4 Vetts.
Plenty of Mustangs V8s.
The cars are fast, the rules weak.

The never ending speed increase is why we have some interest for SCCA events with some sort of speed cap and classes. A good ITB car was top 5 on lap times where now it is bottom 30%lap times.

The Chump brake rule is 2X stock value. Really no rule at all. BMW calipers are more than Wilwood. The 1 in allows the same brakes with a hard number.

The other small SCCA conflict is the ERW cages that many Chump cars have. Most cage kits for RR or stock cars are ERW. Thus many early Chumpers are ERW tubing. Many "Autopower" cages are also ERW unless you get the upgrade. Chump allows a single pas door bar on paper, but I have never seen any.
Thanks for the input. MM
 
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Two things, first of all while SCCA racing tries to be Safe, Fun and Fair, I never figured that fair was the point of crap can racing. I think coming up with a simple class structure to make it a little more fair and posting it online so regions can adopt it at their discretion is a nice idea, but you will never make it totally fair without enough rules to fill a GCR. Hat okay it is supposed to be fun.
Second on your comments about licensing, using the alternate drivers school procedure drivers can be observed and signed off at non SCCA events. All you need is a willing SCCA instructor and a willing SCCA steward. Only the instructor has to attend the event.
 
I'll fan the fire......

SCCA got to be out of touch due to too many rules, too little seat time, and too much money... Chump is catching up fast.... In the midwest, sounds like people are pouring money at the cars and making a demo derby of it (like IT in the NE?)....

Lemons has it more right, with more flexibility to build what you want (a huge draw for me) and the no contact rule is a big reason why. I feel less likely go get hit in Lemons than in IT (though I got nailed in the rain last year)

I've been in the SCCA since 87', and can't say the IT drivers are really any better than the walk-on bozos that come to Lemons - its more about our individual attitude and situational awareness IMO.

Regardless, my advice is: More enduros, and let the crapcans run. I wouldn't even class them or restrict beyond safety concerns. If they want micro-managed rules and classes, let them "graduate" to "real" club racing. I'd probably bring out my Lexus (LS400) in such circumstances to mid-west races.
 
Spinnetti said:
I'll fan the fire......

SCCA got to be out of touch due to too many rules, too little seat time, and too much money... Chump is catching up fast.... In the midwest, sounds like people are pouring money at the cars and making a demo derby of it (like IT in the NE?)....

.
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First, whats with the last snipe?

Second, it's far more complex that you boil it down to be. Whats scca supposed to do...REMOVE rules in FC? IT? Dump classes with subscribed populations because the rule book is thick?/
SCCA is a place to race...where the events are strictly run, and every attempt is made to create an even playing field. That is the kind of place that competitors want to race. But...not everyone can win. After a while, people get tired of not winning. Of trying hard, of spending the money, of spending tons of time, missing Mothers Day, kids soccer games (Which, these days, missing just one for a selfish act of working on the car/racing is grounds for divorce/world of hurt), and they stop, and think about ALL the costs, and the results vs guys like Gorrian, who POURS time and money at the sport, along with protests, and they think they might have a bad balance ...that the fun isn't there(winning), but the cost is.

So they decide, screw it, forget the highly competitive environment, and all the work/development/money, lets just go screw around and not worry about the competition as much.

And thats fine....it's just another facet of the diamond of performance driving. The pie is being divided up a bit, but it's growing. Marque clubs, constant HPDEs everywhere, lots of "pro" series for gentleman drivers to race in and get the desired TV coverage (at least until the budget or sugar daddy dries up), as well as Lemons and such, where the rules are in limbo, so nobody gets too far ahead.

Does SCCA need to change? Adapt? Yes, but it shouldn't lose sight of it's core customers, serious club racers who want well run fair competitions.
 
lateapex911 said:
First, whats with the last snipe?.
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Actually, didn't mean to hit your hot button.. I just watched your videos (MR2 then right?)! From your videos, it looks like the roughest driving I've seen outside of demo derbies (I've lost a car in an aggressive driving incident once already). I like my IT car and am more worried about that kind of driving in the SCCA than in "crap can" racing where I don't have those worries in part due to the contact rules... My real point was, harsher contact rules would be a good idea, and that despite the lack of rules in Lemons, there is very competitive racing across a whole gamut of cars, lending credence to the observation that there might be a better balance than the current model. General attendance trends and growth of other series seems to imply that the model could use some adjustments or at least pilot ideas by allowing more folks "in the tent". I did NOT imply that SCCA classes should go away, only that it should welcome "crap cans" to the party, which would no doubt swell the ranks and coffers of the SCCA as people are exposed to what the SCCA has to offer and decide to take it to the next level.

What's really funny is that when I started IT, it WAS the "crap can" racing of the SCCA.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.....
 
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Spinnetti said:
Actually, didn't mean to hit your hot button.. I just watched your videos (MR2 then right?)! From your videos, it looks like the roughest driving I've seen outside of demo derbies (I've lost a car in an aggressive driving incident once already). I like my IT car and am more worried about that kind of driving in the SCCA than in "crap can" racing where I don't have those worries in part due to the contact rules...

...
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MY videos?? Roughest driving you've seen outside of demo derbies?? MR2 then???Honestly I must be confused. I've never been in an incident where there was a complaint, or was my fault. Not sure on the MR2, never driven one. (did tap one once, when the driver requested me to...)

Toss a link up there.
And for what it's worth, one video of me or whoever doesn't brand the entire 5 region area as rough drivers... well, it shouldn't...
 
Im with Jake on this, How can you say we are the DEMO-Derby in the NE. We just ran a tripe regional at NHMS, and other than the guy who crashed ON HIS OWN. Not one car got touched in 3 races. That was a 27 car field. I started 27th.

Now in the past I may have been a little too aggressive, yeah lets call it that, and I have been called out on it many times. Maybe you should come run a race with us and see whats up.

Jake is possably the cleanest driver in the NE and yur calling HIM out. I think your looking at the wrong video.

Dan, Argueably one of the most Aggressive Drivers in the NE.
 
The reality. Many of the drivers are the same, SCCA& crapcan.
The crap can rules are "no contact" . Often both cars are black flagged. The CC cars have a larger straightline speed variance. Result is less contact than SCCA.
I have had no contact in CC racing and some in fresh SCCA racers.


I have very little contact in all of my cars.( 2 chump, 2 SCCA) I have a 100$ scuff rule. Any scuff is 100$, no questions asked. In addition to the crash out cost/value.

SCCA has lots of crappy drivers. Many would not get through the "Chin solo sign off". Many would not get through the "NASA ladder system."
SCCA also has some of the best drivers.

I have had 2 SCCA rentals in the last year, that the drivers had never raced SCCA before.( Open wheel race school X2 ). One driver came to the track without any H&N. They sucked as drivers . Nice guys tho.
Big picture is that SCCA and Crapcan produce similar results in the quality of fresh drivers. One upside of CC is that the team has 4 drivers and they use lots of data/video to self coach.

Most crap can guys have at least 10hrs of track time after the 3rd race. These guys are not stupid . Many do plenty of test days, track days and have a team coach. ( we do)
They spend a lot of money to race. Lots More than SCCA regional racers.
Typical 14 hr budget is 4000- 7000$
Crap can teams will look for SCCA for cheap track time , fun racing and new venues. If the opportunity exist.IMHO.
 
Flyinglizard said:
I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both.
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Putting someone on track who has no real teaching on how to drive in traffic, etc with club racers puts everyone and their cars at risk. However, as much as I hate this idea, it's not like the SCCA schools are a 4-year college type of program. As long as you don't have car troubles, or contact another car on track, you'll get signed off. Some are not much more than a streetcar track day with more relaxed passing rules. (That's not a jab at anyone in this discussion. I've had a few of you as instructors, and you're all very good.)
 
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