Trying for Nationwide Crap Can class unity

I want to be clear, "I" have more fun with the structure of SCCA. I like the"effort" to try and create a close to level paying field that SCCA has.

We are different and that is what is great about having 2 very different options to get on track.

If this was about cost and track time I would be racing in the legends program at nhms.

Stephen
 
Define "fun".
While it's fine for some, I have zero interest in putting big paintbrush bristles on my car, or a toile seat hanging off the back, or going into any race where the rules and penalties change that day, or are decided by some guy mid race.

"Fun" to me is engaging in a controlled competition where I know the rules going in, and they don't change to suit the sanctioning bodies needs during the event. I don't NEED a dozen cars...I need ONE other GOOD car that runs at the top of the game ....and I understand luck plays into every aspect of motorsports, but, I prefer that the variable be weather, as it happens to everyone pretty equally.

But thats me. Others see fun in different ways, and thats great.
 
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Jake, Please dont confuse Chumpcar and lemons. Chumpcar is racing. Look at the pics of the cars posted on the Chumpsites ,etc.
Go to the Chump race that is near you.
Lemons is the carnival, Chump is the race. The cars are very serious.

The biggest Issue that I have with Chumpcar is lack of rules for the cars. Chumpcar needs maybe 3 classes for me to stay engaged.
The HP race is full on." Crap-Can-Am" is here to stay.

The contact rules are pretty well enforced as are the passing under yellow. The racers are pretty considerate on track and off.

The huge attraction of Chumpcar; friendly people, everywhere, reg,tech, pit marshells. The guys next to you. Just a good time without hassles.

Lots of track time with lots of little races.
 
Flyinglizard said:
Jake, Please dont confuse Chumpcar and lemons. Chumpcar is racing. Look at the pics of the cars posted on the Chumpsites ,etc.
Go to the Chump race that is near you.
Lemons is the carnival, Chump is the race. The cars are very serious.

The biggest Issue that I have with Chumpcar is lack of rules for the cars. Chumpcar needs maybe 3 classes for me to stay engaged.
The HP race is full on." Crap-Can-Am" is here to stay.

The contact rules are pretty well enforced as are the passing under yellow. The racers are pretty considerate on track and off.

The huge attraction of Chumpcar; friendly people, everywhere, reg,tech, pit marshells. The guys next to you. Just a good time without hassles.

Lots of track time with lots of little races.
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Understood that lemons is a circus. And that Chump is more serious. But, there is still the issue of your point above.
Hey, it's a great thing for lots of people. Maybe it would be fine for me too, who knows. But, I'm in a "budget control" pattern, and that means no money spent on dumb stuff. Like racing, LOL.
 
I'm with Jake. I've spent time speaking with Lemons and Chump racers and know Lemons isn't for me. No sharks on the roof, I don't want to drive around with Toyota minvans wearing an airplane (those guys did a nice job BTW), and don't want to be at the whim of some "official" because I won't give him my beer.

Chump might be for me, except there is a lack of rules structure. And, even with the lack of rules I notice on the websites and other places I'm reading about new 2014 rules coming down the pipe which will have fairly large changes. Someone here and on the other board indicated Chump is going to have to move to displacement based class structure - the slippery slope toward more rules and pretty soon you have SCCA IT or NASA PT.

Heck, it'd be pretty cool if Chump would just use the IT-rule set in a long-term enduro format.
 
Ron Earp said:
I'm with Jake. I've spent time speaking with Lemons and Chump racers and know Lemons isn't for me. No sharks on the roof, I don't want to drive around with Toyota minvans wearing an airplane (those guys did a nice job BTW), and don't want to be at the whim of some "official" because I won't give him my beer.

Chump might be for me, except there is a lack of rules structure. And, even with the lack of rules I notice on the websites and other places I'm reading about new 2014 rules coming down the pipe which will have fairly large changes. Someone here and on the other board indicated Chump is going to have to move to displacement based class structure - the slippery slope toward more rules and pretty soon you have SCCA IT or NASA PT.

Heck, it'd be pretty cool if Chump would just use the IT-rule set in a long-term enduro format.
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Meh. The great thing about Chump is that the cars can run stupid-low race weight that makes consumable costs go way down. Alternate (typically parts-binned) brakes mean less shit gets burned down in long races. And then there's the whole "tire" thing. ;)

I don't disagree that some sort of displacement based option makes sense for Chump... still, even without it, you don't *need* to have eleventy billion HP to place well or even just enjoy racing for the best position you can get. I've yet to talk with anyone who's raced both SCCA and Chump who didn't enjoy both orgs (for different reasons). One's not necessarily "better" than the other and, if I'm honest, I doubt folks who own ChumpCars want a bunch of SCCA 10/10ths build mentality in their sandbox. All it will do is further drive up the cost to compete at the front of the pack.
 
Xian said:
I doubt folks who own ChumpCars want a bunch of SCCA 10/10ths build mentality in their sandbox.
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Coming to a neighborhood near you if Team Stangwerks builds a Chumpstang. Along with some ITS drivers.

But LeChump already has that already with some teams, as well as professional drivers. LeChump already costs as much or more more than a decent IT effort, although IT isn't, except in rare cases, a team build.
 
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Ron Earp said:
Coming to a neighborhood near you if Team Stangwerks builds a Chumpstang. Along with some ITS drivers.

But LeChump already has that already with some teams, as well as professional drivers. LeChump already costs as much or more more than a decent IT effort, although IT isn't, except in rare cases, a team build.
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I guess it depends how you define "decent" huh? I've built IT cars and I've talked plenty with LeChump folks (raced with them as well) and there is a VAST difference in cost between the two. Because there is so much low hanging fruit, there's not the investment in an SM-like approach to chasing small details (and the cubic dollars that go with it). No two-way shocks so no money being spent on revalves, big spring rates, or the testing. No custom sway bars (or very few). No big $$ diffs. If there are folks building mega-dollar motors then 1- they're stupid 2- they're illegal 3- have fun with that.

I'd wager that you can build a top-10 Chump car for under $5,000 if you can weld the cage. Under $7,000 if you have to farm the cage out. I can point to plenty of cars in IT that have close to $5k in just their suspension.
 
Sure, decent means lots of different things.

Knowing what I know now, I'm confident I can build a very good LeChump Mustang for under $7k, but, what I know now came at a heavy price over the last couple of years. I'm sure Steve E could bust out a RX7 LeChump for reasonable money, as could many other racers build a pared down version of their IT car. Granted, the IT version is ultimately more expensive, but for even $7k to $10k I could have an IT car that would be podium capable.

From what I understand the time and money just isn't that much different, certainly not orders of magnitude different.
 
Pretty clear that Chump will not have any classes for the endurance races.
SCCAhas a small window of opportunity to gain a few racers that run the real 500$ small engined cars. Miata 1.6 and slower.
 
Ron Earp said:
Sure, decent means lots of different things.

Knowing what I know now, I'm confident I can build a very good LeChump Mustang for under $7k, but, what I know now came at a heavy price over the last couple of years. I'm sure Steve E could bust out a RX7 LeChump for reasonable money, as could many other racers build a pared down version of their IT car. Granted, the IT version is ultimately more expensive, but for even $7k to $10k I could have an IT car that would be podium capable.

From what I understand the time and money just isn't that much different, certainly not orders of magnitude different.
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AEM/Motec ECU- ~$2k vs. a $25 ebay chip
Customer burns header ~$1500 vs. ebay/CL @ $100
Custom valved DA shocks ~$4k vs. Bilsteins @$400

My point above is that pointy end of the field in Chump is relatively cheaper than IT. And by a bunch of cash when you're talking apples:apples point end of the grid cars. Remember, mid-pack in IT means finishing 3rd-5th (most regions would be thrilled to have 10 IT cars in a class). Mid-pack in Chump means finishing ~50-60th. Building a Top-10 Chump car means that you're in the top 8-10% of the finishers. The top 8-10% in IT means that you're 1st or 2nd.

Could I build a mid-pack IT car for $7k? Probably but it'd be tight... and with R-comp loads, stock brake temps, the higher spring rates I'd need for the tires... I'd also expect to start having bearings/hubs/ball-joints dying on me. That same $$ would get you a top-10 Chump car with a lower failure rate and more of the budget to go toward preventative maintenance.
 
StephenB said:
The chump you guys are explaining was IT 15yrs ago...

Just sayin.
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Bingo. Agreed eleventy seven brazillion percent. I've heard (and said) the same thing in IT and Chump paddocks.

I'm sure folks will threaten to crucify me for it but, in the long term, a readjustment to the IT tire rules would go a long way toward reigning in some of the advantage that high dollar suspension parts yield. It still wouldn't address the underlying "problem" behind the IT full-tilt build mentality.
 
It's the usual cycle, Christian. Neat category/series gets invented, seems to offer fun times, good racing, for reasonable money.
It then attracts lots of folks. Gets popular. Which attracts more people who look at it and think, "Hmm, looks like I could afford a solid well built car that can win there", and they spend a bit more...and win. Rinse, repeat. Over and over. The rules get parsed and new rules are written but often it's too late, reservoir shocks are out of the barn.

Average Joes see how much it costs to play in the sandbox, and look elsewhere.

they find a shiny new playground and everybody rushes there. Then somebody decides they have the budget to get serious, and away we go.

To ITs defense, its lasted a loooooong time.

True and good point about the tires, BUT, that ship pretty much sailed in the early 90's.
I remember making a comment yeeeears ago about how I wished the Hoosier factory would burn down and we'd all be forced to run on street tires. Man did THAT comment land me some shit! Obviously i wasns't serious, but some folks took me to task, .

But yea, if Star Specs (or whatever) had existed back then and we had a crystal ball, it might have been an interesting experiment to limit R-comps.

When I finally got my wheels/tire 'quiver' close to where I wanted it this is what I had mounted at all times:
-a set of fresh low cycle (under 4) R comps (Hoosier)
-a set of fresh A compounds for qualifying and cold conditions
-a set of Dirt Stockers for slime and wet.
-a set of 4-12 cycle "practice' and test tires.

Lacking: a set of soft intermediates.

That would be FIVE sets. With a tire rule, we could eliminate 3 or 4 of those. Thats some serious $$ savings.
 
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Tires; 1) Are the reason I run the VWs in prod(ITB spec cars). I can buy Ebay slicks for 100$ /4.

2) The 180TW tires last pretty well and are racey enough.

3) my rule set allows the IT spec cars to run with the 180TW tires

4) notice No rim sizes - just tire sizes, this allows more cars to run together regardless of IT specs.

*** Last. If this may be a provisional 2014 rule set, I will sign my Turbo Jett Chumper up for the Grassroots Challenge with the SCCA Class tags on it***( CrapCan-AM, "CCAM")

How can we make this happen?
 
I have been racing SCCA for 12 years in ITB and ITS and just recently gave up on trying to race chump car.

year 1
we built a VW jetta, I built the cage for $300 in tubing, gave the team my old race seat and belts etc. we still ended up with like $4k in the the $500 car . we got 6 hours of our 1st 12 hour race, blew the gasket and replaced it then it blew again in 14 min. I ended up with $1800 and 50 hours in it and I got 27 minutes of drive time .

year 2
the team decided the jetta was to slow so we bult a 86 rx7
built the car, spent a bunch of money and time making a $500 car, cut pring to the right rate etc. ( way easier to just buy the right springs ) ended up with $6k in the car. we blew the engine in the first 2 hours , bought another at the track for $300 changed it an blew it about 20 minutes later. I eneded up with about $1000 in the deal and got to drive for an hour

year 3
re-build blown rotary, not enough compresson to start, bought running car for the engine, swapped the engine. started the race, blew the side seal on lap 2 and got blacked flaged for smoke ! AT A CHUMPCAR RACE !
spent $800 drove o minutes.

my SCCA ITS experience is I bought a ITS 280 z for $4k and have raced it for 3 years with only brakes and tires

so my exerience is that chump is no cheaper. much more work , more hassles ( tech, changing rules, etc. ) and the pain in the ass factor of the team people were mad about not getting to drive etc.

So I am just going with the cheap low hassle low work SCCA, where I am competitieve know the rules, and have lots of fun.

your mileage may vary...

Chris Plucker
 
Having 4 fly in drivers is a very hard deal . I ran 3 cars with 4 drivers each for one year.
Just running a car 14hrs is part of the prep issues. Nobody said it was going to be easy, or cheap.
There is around 80hrs prep-or repair, per car every 24hrs. Not a good business model. I had to get rid of drivers that "sprint" attitude.

6 hr races would be the nuts, night races would sell huge.IMHO.

SCCA could do better than Chump with some simple tweaks.

Having a class for your already built cars would be a good start.
 
I wonder if that 80 hour prep figure that Mike gives is accounted for properly in the balance sheet when the Chump guys say the racing is 'cheap'. At shop rates, it sure isn't.
I suspect they 'divide by 4" and everybody works for free. Thats great, but if you aren't the first driving stint, and the the car fails in some area that ANOTHER guy worked on, I can see being pretty annoyed.

I still say the major cost saving areas are the tires.
AND the lesser desire to win at all costs.
 
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