Trying for Nationwide Crap Can class unity
- Thread starter Flyinglizard
- Start date
Flyinglizard
New member
Latest Update;
2014 will see Crapcans "welcomed into SCCA" in some fashion, for many regions. The PNW and upper Midwest have started ITJ and have included the class already.
For the SE division. 2014 may see an actual new class or Crapcans run in a pre existing class. Not sure yet, but most of the logistics depend on car counts. Breaking the cars into speed related classes may come as car counts improve.
The major class control is the tires' tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Non crap cans should be able to run with the proper tires. IE, my low tech VW Prod cars run both series by removing the rear glass, ballast, and changing tires. I prefer a tire width rule,VS a wheel size rule for many reasons. Again, any hard specs may or may not come along as car counts dictate.
My short range goal is to enter 1 of my 2 Crap cans( "Crap Can -Am") into the "2013 Grassroots' Challenge" with SCCA class tags and some sort of notice about the class in SCCA for 2014.
Later, MM
2014 will see Crapcans "welcomed into SCCA" in some fashion, for many regions. The PNW and upper Midwest have started ITJ and have included the class already.
For the SE division. 2014 may see an actual new class or Crapcans run in a pre existing class. Not sure yet, but most of the logistics depend on car counts. Breaking the cars into speed related classes may come as car counts improve.
The major class control is the tires' tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Non crap cans should be able to run with the proper tires. IE, my low tech VW Prod cars run both series by removing the rear glass, ballast, and changing tires. I prefer a tire width rule,VS a wheel size rule for many reasons. Again, any hard specs may or may not come along as car counts dictate.
My short range goal is to enter 1 of my 2 Crap cans( "Crap Can -Am") into the "2013 Grassroots' Challenge" with SCCA class tags and some sort of notice about the class in SCCA for 2014.
Later, MM
Ron Earp
Administrator
I've participated in the Grassroots Challenge for three years. I don't see how entering crap cans in it is going to further your cause of crap can unity and SCCA racing. In fact, two of the years I ran the challenge there were crap cans there, most notably the Sanford and Son truck with the LS engine in it.
Most of the participants in the Grassroots Challenge don't have anything to do with the SCCA. The competition is run at VIR and I don't remember seeing anyone from our SCCA region at the event, it is predominantly NASA people, a few of which have crossover with the SCCA.
if crapcan-loving people are at the challenge, and I expect they will be, showing them that the SCCA is embracing their cars (and, theoretically, some of their attitude) would be good advertising for the club with easy, wide-ranging exposure thanks to the draw of the event and the distribution of GRM, and help show a path to our club that those "predominantly NASA people" might take. It'd be nice to get a few more CC guys to do like wise, for a contingent of sorts.
I say good for mike on this one.
I say good for mike on this one.
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Beware of unintended consequences!
circa 1983 (30 yrs ago) CalClub started Improved Touring. By 1987 it had just about taken over regional racing. (we had a 50 car ITB field once at The Glenn)
It was virtually the 1963 (20 year old) production car rules.
It was a reaction to how 20 years of "interpretation" had destroyed sportscar racing for Mr Average Competitor and created a technical money-pit.
IMO, IT is in nearly the same place.
I remember when the club made IT a "national" Regional class, and talking to Doug X, Dir of Club Racing. "we're concerned about IT-we don't want to create a junk-car class"
Well, that's certainly been averted!
Wouldn't bother me a bit to race in a Crap-Can! That's how I started, and it was good!
Bring it on!! Back to the future.
circa 1983 (30 yrs ago) CalClub started Improved Touring. By 1987 it had just about taken over regional racing. (we had a 50 car ITB field once at The Glenn)
It was virtually the 1963 (20 year old) production car rules.
It was a reaction to how 20 years of "interpretation" had destroyed sportscar racing for Mr Average Competitor and created a technical money-pit.
IMO, IT is in nearly the same place.
I remember when the club made IT a "national" Regional class, and talking to Doug X, Dir of Club Racing. "we're concerned about IT-we don't want to create a junk-car class"
Well, that's certainly been averted!
Wouldn't bother me a bit to race in a Crap-Can! That's how I started, and it was good!
Bring it on!! Back to the future.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I probably don't have the multi level understanding needed of the issue, but from my 1000 foot view, I'm struggling to see the downside (except to Mike who's putting in the time and effort) and while the upsides might be debatable, I see no harm (or cost)- so unless I'm missing something, it's all good.
Ron Earp
Administrator
I'm sure I have little understanding of the issue, less than you do Jake. The efforts he's making are great, I question whether or not it'll accomplish his goals. I think he wants to bring awareness of crap cans to the SCCA, I'm just pointing out that historically there hasn't been much mixing of NCR SCCA (the SCCA region which runs VIR and covers the immediate surrounding area) and NASA/Grassroots challenge. The Grassroots Challenge runs on the front end of a NASA race weekend so while some SCCA racers attend I don't think much SCCA brass is in attendance.
I would think convincing the local SCCA region that he runs in to create a crap can class would have more impact. If the local regional efforts succeed and the car counts increase, then other regions would take notice. NCR SCCA is aware of crap cans and I'm told they have discussed their inclusion in events, including the 13 hr at VIR. I don't know the outcome of the discussions but could find out.
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forestdweller37
New member
I think I understand what Mike is trying to accomplish. SCCA Club Racing has a perception issue. Most outside of it see it as:
1) Too difficult and expensive to get started in.
2) Overly expensive to participate in.
3) They'll be harassed by the stewards over "trivial" rules.
4) The rule book is too thick to read or understand.
Even a significant portion of the Solo community sees SCCA Club Racing as "not the way to go road racing."
As stated earlier, the GRM challenge is a very different crowd. A significant portion of the country's "crapcan" racers are also GRM readers. By taking a "crapcan" racecar emblazoned with SCCA stickers to the GRM challenge, he's trying to send the message that SCCA is a viable place for the casual would-be road racer. And he's sending it to people who aren't currently SCCA (Club Racing) customers. I wish him success.
1) Too difficult and expensive to get started in.
2) Overly expensive to participate in.
3) They'll be harassed by the stewards over "trivial" rules.
4) The rule book is too thick to read or understand.
Even a significant portion of the Solo community sees SCCA Club Racing as "not the way to go road racing."
As stated earlier, the GRM challenge is a very different crowd. A significant portion of the country's "crapcan" racers are also GRM readers. By taking a "crapcan" racecar emblazoned with SCCA stickers to the GRM challenge, he's trying to send the message that SCCA is a viable place for the casual would-be road racer. And he's sending it to people who aren't currently SCCA (Club Racing) customers. I wish him success.
Flyinglizard
New member
The "2013 GrassRoots challenge" is not the "Ultimate Track Car challenge".
My Event is @ Gainsville raceway. It consist of, Car show, solo, drag race.
Thanks for the encouraging words.
Getting the word out about "New SCCA" is my goal. We cant get cars without advertising of some sort.
MM
My Event is @ Gainsville raceway. It consist of, Car show, solo, drag race.
Thanks for the encouraging words.
Getting the word out about "New SCCA" is my goal. We cant get cars without advertising of some sort.
MM
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I know of a few SCCA roadracers who have hit the Grassroots challenge over the years. Pretty fun event. I hope Mike does well with his goals.
Ron Earp
Administrator
Ooops, sorry. My bad. I mixed those two up. The Grassroots Challenge makes good sense, but I think you can see where the Ultimate Track Car Challenge I was mixed up on doesn't make a lot of sense to attend. The Ultimate Track Car Challenge runs on the front end of the NASA event at VIR in July/August.
Carry on.
Flyinglizard
New member
The UTTC had a few Chumpcars. The swapped MR2-V6 won the class.
www.ogren-engineering.com/crap-can-am
Not really sure why the pages looks dirty. but it is what I have for now.
Mike Ogren/ ProtechRacing
1220 Broad St.-US 41
Crap Can AM rules, 5/13,
The intent of these rule guidelines; Allow "Crapcans" to cross over to SCCA and NASA with little hassle. The basic car should be able to be purchased for around 1000$
AS long as the car is deemed "safe" they should have a class under these rules. The Normal SCCA and NASA safety rules apply, master switch, brake lights. Most "crapcan" master switches are placed within driver reach, in the center of the car.
A stable class structure may slow the speed creep and allow a car to remain competitive for more than a couple of years .
SCCA IT cars are legal and may run with the spec tires, with no minimum weight .
Stock throttle body Production cars may run, with the spec tires, @ Prod weight..+100#
Cars clearly in the wrong class should be moved up or down at the sanctioning techs discretion.
CCU; 2.3 and under class , 225 max tire width
CCO; class(2.3 - 3.1) E 30 BMW -6 cyl , Honda products with V tec .
245 max tire width
CCA, Crap -Can-Am; All E36, all swapped, all boosted, all over 3.1liter, all cars clearly not classed per above.
All cars with tires larger than class size limit.
No max tire size.
Non stock throttle body area; = 1 class bump.
Any brake rotors or drums within 1 in. OD of stock. Stock master cyl required. Brake bias adjusters are free.
Stock suspension with any springs and shocks. Any camber as a result of slots in the knuckle or strut top.
All tires; tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Any wheels.
IT fire bottle rules.
Stock tank or fuel cell allowed.
Fuel cell required if tank is less than 20in from rear bumper, IE; BMW 2002, C4 Corvette, etc.
Any brake rotors or drums within 1 in. OD of stock. Stock master cyl required. Brake bias adjusters are free. Any air cooling ducts and water cooling is allowed.
Stock suspension with any springs and shocks. Any camber as a result of slots in the knuckle or strut top.
All tires; tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Any wheels.
IT fire bottle rules.
Stock tank or fuel cell allowed.
Fuel cell required if tank is less than 20in from rear bumper, IE; BMW 2002, C4 Corvette, etc.
1 gal or less hopper tanks/surge tanks allowed. All fuel lines passing inside of the driver compartment must be steel braided or steel tubing.
IT cage rules are the minimum. Production Car cage rules encouraged. Any tubing allowed between the front and rear fire walls. Attachment to the sill/rockers are encouraged. Driver side wheel house bar recommended.
3 driver's side bars, 2 pass side bars minimum. The lower bar may attach to the sill/rocker.
SCCA tube size to weight rules. Weight is taken as raced, with driver. ERW cages must be one size over the DOM size.
No tubing past the wheel hubs.
Some exceptions will occur, small short cars like the Honda, Miata, where the rear stays must go past the wheel hubs.
Open cars; must use arm restraints or some form of roof panel. Cars with no windshield, must use arm restraints.
Driver door must have window net.
Aero; unrestricted. Must be well attached.
3 in ground clearance rule, (includes all aero panels.)
Bodywork must be stock material ; Hood may be gutted and vented but must remain.
Interior Body panels may be lightened. Floors must be stock with holes filled.
Trunks, hatches, roofs, may be removed or gutted.
Fenders , doors, rear quarter panels, may be modified but must remain.
Exterior driver door panels may be rolled down.
Fender flares may be added over cut steel fenders.
Glass may be removed, but it is not required. "Lexan" may be used throughout. GCR, Productions sizes.
Anything that can be removed per normal "Crapcan rules" , may be removed. (Everything).
Battery placement is open. must be safe secure and covered.
Lights; 4 light assemblies max. Please keep 2 lights max straight ahead with less than 120 watts.
Max mounting height is front edge of hood plus 6in. No roof mounting.
www.ogren-engineering.com/crap-can-am
Not really sure why the pages looks dirty. but it is what I have for now.
Mike Ogren/ ProtechRacing
1220 Broad St.-US 41
Crap Can AM rules, 5/13,
The intent of these rule guidelines; Allow "Crapcans" to cross over to SCCA and NASA with little hassle. The basic car should be able to be purchased for around 1000$
AS long as the car is deemed "safe" they should have a class under these rules. The Normal SCCA and NASA safety rules apply, master switch, brake lights. Most "crapcan" master switches are placed within driver reach, in the center of the car.
A stable class structure may slow the speed creep and allow a car to remain competitive for more than a couple of years .
SCCA IT cars are legal and may run with the spec tires, with no minimum weight .
Stock throttle body Production cars may run, with the spec tires, @ Prod weight..+100#
Cars clearly in the wrong class should be moved up or down at the sanctioning techs discretion.
CCU; 2.3 and under class , 225 max tire width
CCO; class(2.3 - 3.1) E 30 BMW -6 cyl , Honda products with V tec .
245 max tire width
CCA, Crap -Can-Am; All E36, all swapped, all boosted, all over 3.1liter, all cars clearly not classed per above.
All cars with tires larger than class size limit.
No max tire size.
Non stock throttle body area; = 1 class bump.
Any brake rotors or drums within 1 in. OD of stock. Stock master cyl required. Brake bias adjusters are free.
Stock suspension with any springs and shocks. Any camber as a result of slots in the knuckle or strut top.
All tires; tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Any wheels.
IT fire bottle rules.
Stock tank or fuel cell allowed.
Fuel cell required if tank is less than 20in from rear bumper, IE; BMW 2002, C4 Corvette, etc.
Any brake rotors or drums within 1 in. OD of stock. Stock master cyl required. Brake bias adjusters are free. Any air cooling ducts and water cooling is allowed.
Stock suspension with any springs and shocks. Any camber as a result of slots in the knuckle or strut top.
All tires; tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Any wheels.
IT fire bottle rules.
Stock tank or fuel cell allowed.
Fuel cell required if tank is less than 20in from rear bumper, IE; BMW 2002, C4 Corvette, etc.
1 gal or less hopper tanks/surge tanks allowed. All fuel lines passing inside of the driver compartment must be steel braided or steel tubing.
IT cage rules are the minimum. Production Car cage rules encouraged. Any tubing allowed between the front and rear fire walls. Attachment to the sill/rockers are encouraged. Driver side wheel house bar recommended.
3 driver's side bars, 2 pass side bars minimum. The lower bar may attach to the sill/rocker.
SCCA tube size to weight rules. Weight is taken as raced, with driver. ERW cages must be one size over the DOM size.
No tubing past the wheel hubs.
Some exceptions will occur, small short cars like the Honda, Miata, where the rear stays must go past the wheel hubs.
Open cars; must use arm restraints or some form of roof panel. Cars with no windshield, must use arm restraints.
Driver door must have window net.
Aero; unrestricted. Must be well attached.
3 in ground clearance rule, (includes all aero panels.)
Bodywork must be stock material ; Hood may be gutted and vented but must remain.
Interior Body panels may be lightened. Floors must be stock with holes filled.
Trunks, hatches, roofs, may be removed or gutted.
Fenders , doors, rear quarter panels, may be modified but must remain.
Exterior driver door panels may be rolled down.
Fender flares may be added over cut steel fenders.
Glass may be removed, but it is not required. "Lexan" may be used throughout. GCR, Productions sizes.
Anything that can be removed per normal "Crapcan rules" , may be removed. (Everything).
Battery placement is open. must be safe secure and covered.
Lights; 4 light assemblies max. Please keep 2 lights max straight ahead with less than 120 watts.
Max mounting height is front edge of hood plus 6in. No roof mounting.
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Flyinglizard
New member
These rules are the summery/modification of the Chumpcar rules.( and lack of)
Includes; no tire size limits
No engine size classes ( one class fits all)
2X OE cost brake rule,( pretty much any brakes.)
No min weight
swapped cars
No air control rules
Rear engine ,exFWD cars
Basically no rules.
The typical resulting cars;
The Riley V6 MX6 roadster( 3+ wins)
Nissan Z32 roadster(3-4 wins)
The swapped V6 2nd Gen MR2( 2+wins)
Turbo Hondas, Saabs, VWs ( 99 SaabT, 4-5wins)
rear engined VW turbo Pickup (0)
Many cut roof roadsters
My Turbo Jetta roadster (0)
rear engine Neon with PT 2.4 engine
Swapped BMW E 30 with M50( 1win)
RX7 wth Ford or Chev power(?wins)
Rear mounted V8 Escort
Old AS cars , Camaro,and Mustangs
yet,my Chumpy 99 Miata is not legal.( worth too much)
The rules and lack of rules are the draw to the Chump series tho. Guys like to cut stuff off of their cars. Just add some engineering lube and a sawzall and the car gets smaller.
I have to admit that the resulting cars are cool and way fast.
With my splitter, dive planes, locked diff on the Dunlops( soon Rivals) the 2000# car makes 1.2 G @ T 1 Sebring, and hits around 122 or a little over , 3 places. For less than $10,000.
The cost has gotten a little out of hand to run near the front.
A good Miata can still do top 5 at the short tracks.
The cost per race has doubled since the 2009 season. Where a fair ITB car did top 3 @ 150$per hr.
Now these cars are all around 300per.
The big tires may actually reduce the overall cost per hr ,as they can last a few races.
MM
Includes; no tire size limits
No engine size classes ( one class fits all)
2X OE cost brake rule,( pretty much any brakes.)
No min weight
swapped cars
No air control rules
Rear engine ,exFWD cars
Basically no rules.
The typical resulting cars;
The Riley V6 MX6 roadster( 3+ wins)
Nissan Z32 roadster(3-4 wins)
The swapped V6 2nd Gen MR2( 2+wins)
Turbo Hondas, Saabs, VWs ( 99 SaabT, 4-5wins)
rear engined VW turbo Pickup (0)
Many cut roof roadsters
My Turbo Jetta roadster (0)
rear engine Neon with PT 2.4 engine
Swapped BMW E 30 with M50( 1win)
RX7 wth Ford or Chev power(?wins)
Rear mounted V8 Escort
Old AS cars , Camaro,and Mustangs
yet,my Chumpy 99 Miata is not legal.( worth too much)
The rules and lack of rules are the draw to the Chump series tho. Guys like to cut stuff off of their cars. Just add some engineering lube and a sawzall and the car gets smaller.
I have to admit that the resulting cars are cool and way fast.
With my splitter, dive planes, locked diff on the Dunlops( soon Rivals) the 2000# car makes 1.2 G @ T 1 Sebring, and hits around 122 or a little over , 3 places. For less than $10,000.
The cost has gotten a little out of hand to run near the front.
A good Miata can still do top 5 at the short tracks.
The cost per race has doubled since the 2009 season. Where a fair ITB car did top 3 @ 150$per hr.
Now these cars are all around 300per.
The big tires may actually reduce the overall cost per hr ,as they can last a few races.
MM
Mike - I applaud your continued efforts about this, generally LIKE the idea of a simple rule set "run whatcha brung" class, and mean absolutely no offense when I say the following:
you have some gaping holes and a few noteworthy omissions. I know the trickledown from chump stuff means you "know" what you want, but you have to treat the rules as able to exist in a vacuum. if someone decides to build a car to these rules, what is the generally acceptable limit of prep? without a "benevolent dictator" to enforce the spirit of the rules, you have to have rules that are self limiting. specifically:
"any shock and spring" combined with the allowance (hell, encouragement) to weld the cage wherever you want between wheel hubs leaves open the potential for huge spending wars on suspension- the street tires are only going to get better, making this more and more true.
speaking of spending wars, there is not a single rule about engine or trans mods. what's allowed to be done (or not) to the motor? trans? can I run a cammed-to hell, 14:1 CR, massaged head, ported to perfection, exotic material filled motor mated to a box full of specifically selected, polished, straight-cut gears and carbon synchros with a $3k differential? to blow it up a bit, can I use something like a prelude SH's trans with an active diff? what about with AWD? active center diff? and what about the ECU? sensors? data logging? active control of suspension? traction control? is ABS allowed? can it be custom? where do I send the check? I know the 1-class bump rule for cars that are "obviously" too fast exists here, but once you're into "crap-can-am," this has the potential to blow up. if that's the intent, then fine. but I did want to point it out.
most VTEC Hondas <2.3L are economy car engines, and not particularly strong motors for their displacement. a 92-95 civic Si D16Z6 != 99-00 civic Si B16A. put B series VTEC a class up, leave the rest alone. if you are REALLY spooked, bump K20's too. as there are no motor rules, can I just deactivate my VTEC system, and stay in my displacement class while running a fixed-lobe cam?
alignment adjustment via slots for the strut or at the knuckle are great for strut cars. lots of cars have SLA or other non-McStrut setups, with particular variety out back. add some allowance for them (slots at the chassis side mounting points if none as stock), or note that SLA cars are getting the short end of this rule as a matter of enforcing parity (if that is the intent).
there's some other, nitpicky stuff I could point out but, in the spirit of crapcan, I will not.
you have some gaping holes and a few noteworthy omissions. I know the trickledown from chump stuff means you "know" what you want, but you have to treat the rules as able to exist in a vacuum. if someone decides to build a car to these rules, what is the generally acceptable limit of prep? without a "benevolent dictator" to enforce the spirit of the rules, you have to have rules that are self limiting. specifically:
"any shock and spring" combined with the allowance (hell, encouragement) to weld the cage wherever you want between wheel hubs leaves open the potential for huge spending wars on suspension- the street tires are only going to get better, making this more and more true.
speaking of spending wars, there is not a single rule about engine or trans mods. what's allowed to be done (or not) to the motor? trans? can I run a cammed-to hell, 14:1 CR, massaged head, ported to perfection, exotic material filled motor mated to a box full of specifically selected, polished, straight-cut gears and carbon synchros with a $3k differential? to blow it up a bit, can I use something like a prelude SH's trans with an active diff? what about with AWD? active center diff? and what about the ECU? sensors? data logging? active control of suspension? traction control? is ABS allowed? can it be custom? where do I send the check? I know the 1-class bump rule for cars that are "obviously" too fast exists here, but once you're into "crap-can-am," this has the potential to blow up. if that's the intent, then fine. but I did want to point it out.
most VTEC Hondas <2.3L are economy car engines, and not particularly strong motors for their displacement. a 92-95 civic Si D16Z6 != 99-00 civic Si B16A. put B series VTEC a class up, leave the rest alone. if you are REALLY spooked, bump K20's too. as there are no motor rules, can I just deactivate my VTEC system, and stay in my displacement class while running a fixed-lobe cam?
alignment adjustment via slots for the strut or at the knuckle are great for strut cars. lots of cars have SLA or other non-McStrut setups, with particular variety out back. add some allowance for them (slots at the chassis side mounting points if none as stock), or note that SLA cars are getting the short end of this rule as a matter of enforcing parity (if that is the intent).
there's some other, nitpicky stuff I could point out but, in the spirit of crapcan, I will not.
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Flyinglizard
New member
These are simply a summery of the "Chumpcar" rules, other than the classes.
If I get involved with this, I will have all cars submit a pro style build sheet and have a NASA style ,on site overview committee. No BS boards.
Keep in mind that SCCA will be a secondary venue for most of these cars. The Chump teams just want some more test track and track time.
All parts are supposed to be stock, all non stock parts are declared in the build sheet.
The rules will move a little for the real world situations as needed if ever.
Car count and team interest will come first. I dont want to burden Crap can teams with SCCA type rules. That is why they are where they are.
Run whatever you want. As long as the parts are stock.
If we can get a NON IT group, than the ITC and ITB cars can double dip on the 180TW tires. I would suggest that the prod group is the right place. Or the ITS/ITA group, based on lap times.
Any group with a fair range of lap times would suffice, reducing the out of class racing. IMHO.
Pizza party and beer for all 180TW cars on Sat eve.
MM
If I get involved with this, I will have all cars submit a pro style build sheet and have a NASA style ,on site overview committee. No BS boards.
Keep in mind that SCCA will be a secondary venue for most of these cars. The Chump teams just want some more test track and track time.
All parts are supposed to be stock, all non stock parts are declared in the build sheet.
The rules will move a little for the real world situations as needed if ever.
Car count and team interest will come first. I dont want to burden Crap can teams with SCCA type rules. That is why they are where they are.
Run whatever you want. As long as the parts are stock.
If we can get a NON IT group, than the ITC and ITB cars can double dip on the 180TW tires. I would suggest that the prod group is the right place. Or the ITS/ITA group, based on lap times.
Any group with a fair range of lap times would suffice, reducing the out of class racing. IMHO.
Pizza party and beer for all 180TW cars on Sat eve.
MM
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Minor suggestion... I'd clarify the "Honda VTEC" to "Honda DOHC VTEC". Honda offered a SOHC "VTEC" engine in the Si/EX from 92-95 (possibly later) that doesn't really make additional power over some of the comparable the SOHC non-VTEC engines. Case in point is that both the non-VTEC CRX Si and later "VTEC" 92-95 Civic Si are both classed in ITA at basically the same weight.
Flyinglizard
New member
NASA is good to go.
" Must pass the safety regs"
" Must pass the safety regs"
Ron Earp
Administrator
They can get that with TrackDaze, NASA HPDE, Track Test Days (CMP has one about every Friday), Club days, and the like. No need to even involve the SCCA.