Tweeners - Multiple Class Listings

Originally posted by Ron@Nov 4 2005, 02:32 AM
And on the capri, the 2 liter has always been in ITB, its the 2.6 and 2.8 V-6's that are in ITA. And I know, we ran all of those before we went to the Mustang three years ago.
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Ahhh.. yup, you are exactly right... Sorry about that... I was looking under "Ford" instead of "Mercury"...

Looking at the specs, these cars appear to be stuck in "Tweener" status as well... Too damn heavy a chassis to make minimum weight in ITA (well, the later ones anyhow), and would be too darn heavy to run in ITB (maybe...) And, the V6 versions would likely not be too welcome in ITB either... Kind of a tough call...

These are kind of "unknown" quantities from the ITAC perspective... Just not enough information to really make a qualified call on them.

As for the ITB Mustang... Yah, we've heard about that car... If it can't make the current minimum, then I suppose proposing a new, lower one would be a waste... AND, the car wouldn't be a very good fit in ITC...

In the end, there are GOING to be cars that simply don't fit that well... I'll have to sleep on that and see what I can come up with...
 
Originally posted by Ron@Nov 4 2005, 02:32 AM
Please stop it with the car is too heavy for the brakes. It won't have any pickup comming out of slow corners. Pick a car and start developing it. We worked on ours for three years to get where we are.

Ron Sattele
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...I'm not quite sure what was said to warrant this comment. But I've been running the same car for over eight years. And it is very well developed.

...Stating that I have a problem with brakes is only showing that the design is sub standard. I'm not trying to be a whiner.


...Rick Thompson
...2000,01,02,04,05 SEDIV IT7 Champion
 
I think you kinda forgot the ITA Toyota Corolla GT-S.

Its #2210 first year, more after that as last I remember.. Not sure what weight it should be, but that weight was set with my car in 89' and there is no way I could imagine to go lighter than that (Panasports, hoosier bias ply, built clean from body in white etc.)

Only thing I'm torn about is running down a class and a bunch of extra weight.. run as is and at least enjoy the car, or have some chance to compete in a heavy pig?

Would be interesting... Essentially, the Corolla is less competetive than the MR2 (solid axle, narrower track, longer wb, higher roll centers and center of mass etc.) but I do think the Corolla is easier to drive. (have had 2 Corollas and 2 MR2s, just the Corolla left)

I think there's only a few left racing as they crashed out (3 that I know of), got tired of losing (most of the rest) and me, who wasn't having much fun falling back in the 'crash zone' (overly aggressive mid-packers) the last few years (and so gave it up the last 5 years)

Fuel to the fire....
 
Originally posted by RSTPerformance@Nov 3 2005, 02:57 PM
Darin-

I was shocked you mentioned the Capri in ITA, because that was one car I was going to suggest...  We used to run one granted it was 12 years ago and technology has chnaged...  but I really don't think it is feasable to make it competitive IMO.  It would also be nice to see the good old Corvair back into it!!!

Raymond "Anyone remember when Micheal Reece drove an ITA Capri?" Blethen
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I knew there was somthing about you I liked, Ray. My first car was a 1965 Corvair Corsa (140HP, 4 speed, 4 single barrel carbs...). Look out, Mr. Nader!!!
Actually, if you read his book, Ralph liked the 65-69 Vairs (the ones with independent rear suspension). I would love to run one! Can't decide on color - BRG or Yenko Blue & White!!

Anyone know why only 68 & 69's are listed?

Back to the thread - For my two cents, I don't see anything wrong with two models of the same car classed in two classes (Dodge Charger - ITB, Dodge Shelby Charger - ITA for example) but would not like to see the same model in two different classes.

As far as changing weights resulting in a heavier cage, that's a tough one. ERW tubing is not permitted except on cars registered before 1/1/2003, so grandfathering has been permitted in the past. Like others on this forum, I would not like to see rules that are specific to certain cars. Maybe grandfathering an older cage if the change in the minimum weight was less than 500lbs (just an example!).
 
I see you have a couple of choices:

Toss a bunch of weight at the cars to make them fit in ITB, they will not be any fun then. Everyone will cry about being too heavy and bad on a thousand different reasons, All from a safety standpoint.

Put less weight in the cars and make them class killers in ITB. Only down side to this is you tick off the ITB guys, they all run old dinosaurs, they should have gotten new cars long ago. You can't run at the front forever.....unless you run a 7, oh and we will toss in the MR2 so it looks good.

If I happen to be the only guy running a Capri, Corvair, Fiero whatever or even thinking about building one then it should get the same treatment as the all popular 7.

On the other hand you say that cars need to be allowed to slowly fade away then why are we going to great lengths to save these cars. (oh there are so many 7's out there) We knew what we where doing when we built the things. You are not going to take away their abaility to race they just cant race at the front anymore. BTW I think that they can still win races, I did it in my MR2 so anybody can, you just have to be lucky and smooth...that's racing right.

What are you going to do when a part for that 20yr old car is getting too hard to find change the rules just for the 7.

Would this even be a topic if we where talking about Fiero's and not 7's or MR2's?
Nope.

Leave everything alone.

Duck and Cover :)
 
1989-91 Honda Civic DX

All three are on the same chasis:
The 89-91 Standard is 70 HP in ITC at 2140lbs.
The 89-91 DX is 92 HP in ITA at 2225lbs.
The 89-91 Si is 110HP?? in ITA at 2175lbs.

Both the DX and Standard are Dual Point and the Si is Multipoint. The standard is 4 speed, the DX is 5-speed, and the Si is the exact same 5-Speed that is in the DX.

So how does the identical car (DX compared to Si) with 20+ HP less and 50lbs heavier try and compete in ITA? I think the 1989-91 Honda Civic DX belongs in ITB. I don't know how fast you could make the DX in ITB. It may not be a top runner. The HP, brakes, handling would be more fitted to ITB then ITA tho at probably ITC weight: 2140. I mean even the 89-91 CRX Si which has the same motor as the Si only weighs in at 2140 and that is definitly a front running ITA car.

In a nut shell:

1989-91 Honda Civic DX move to ITB at 2140 lbs.

Thanks
 
If I happen to be the only guy running a Capri, Corvair, Fiero whatever or even thinking about building one then it should get the same treatment as the all popular 7.

............Regarding the RX-7 "treatment"...what treatment?!?! Right now, it's mired in ITA, putting down nearly 30 ft lbs less torque than the CRX, and about 75 less than the biggest torquer in the class.....while it's power is well down from the class leaders, and not quite on par with the CRX...and the CRX weighs 240 pounds less. 240!!! Thats a lot of cinder blocks they don't need to carry around! Better suspension, brakes and on and on... not sure what this "treament" you are referring to is, but as far as the 7 is concerned, it isn't favorable, thats for sure.

But you know what? It could fit the class better, AND so would the MR-2, the Capri, and a host of others, IF the performance parameters of the class are revised...

I reject the "You knew that when you built the car" philosophy, (AKA, the "tough nuts" philosophy) in this case, as the RX-7 and all of it's kind were classed long before the bar was raised with the unfortunate mistake...the CRX. Sorry to put it that way, but the CRX was a blunder, and the many of the ensuing cars have been added to keep ITA from being a one car class. But, in so doing, the class has been broken into two parts...the "haves" (CRX, et al) and the "have nots"..the rest of the cars.

If you are saying that even discussing it (the RX-7) is unfair because we aren't discussing other cars, like the Fiero, well, thats not quite fair either. The RX-7 has long been the "poster child" for the issues of class equity in IT. A car so mistreated, racers have left the fold to race amongst themselves by starting theri own class.

From the ITAC view though, the RX-7 gets no more attention than any other cer. I have phone records to show that I've spent over 9 hours ( over the course of only 2 calls) discussing nearly every car in the ITCS with the ITAC. Fieros were talked about, as were MR-2s, and Proteges and Jettas and Z-cars and Mustangs.

No car is getting better "treatment" than another...the results might not be perfect, with a dead heat of every car at the finish line at track, or even ideal from an empirical point, but given the constraints, each car will get the best shake at the front possible.

We can't control parts availability, reliability or other items, we may miss the exact target due to the inability to get the complete and total picture on every car, and we have hard issues such as existing cages, and conflicting information to deal with, but we are trying to look at the big picture, and each car gets the same attention..
 
On the topic of multiple class listing for what are now one spec line cars, I have to say I do not favor it.

It's just too .....splintered. And of course, confusing, LOL. If we were a marque club, I could see it, but it's bad enough as it is. We have Golfs and Miatas and Hondas all over the place, and while there are substantial differences in their specs, many of them look identical to the even not so casual observer.

Ialso worry about adding yet another layer of complexity for the newcomer to wade through.

I submit that, if the performance parameters of each class were adjusted, that most cars would fall into a more favorable position, and multi classing a car wouldn't be needed.
 
Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 29 2005, 11:37 PM

Sorry to put it that way, but the CRX was a blunder, and the many of the ensuing cars have been added to keep ITA from being a one car class. But, in so doing, the class has been broken into two parts...the "haves" (CRX, et al) and the "have nots"..the rest of the cars.

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Now why again did we not create IT2? :bash_1_:
(I supose we still could)
 
Originally posted by Jake@Nov 29 2005, 06:13 PM
Now why again did we not create IT2?  :bash_1_:
(I supose we still could)
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It's now called ITA. Besides, your RWD, mid-engined car wasn't part of the classification...

The classification of post-1990, four-cylinder, compact cars in the Sports Car Club of America® Improved Touring category (SCCA® IT) has left them generally uncompetitive. These cars range in manufacturer's quoted power from 120-150hp and are delivered with a stock curb weight between 2200 and 2800 pounds. They are all fitted with five-speed transmissions, front disc brakes, front wheel drive, and computer-controlled fuel injection systems.

Here is a list of the ITS cars that fit the IT2 initiative:
Acura Integra RS 94-97
Chrysler Neon SOHC 95-96
Chrysler Neon DOHC 95-96
Honda Civic Si 92-94
Nissan NX2000 90-92
Nissan Sentra SER 2.0 90-92
VW GTI 2.0 16v 90-92
VW Jetta GLI 2.0 16v 91
Honda Prelude 88-91

There all in ITA now...

AB
 
Originally posted by spnkzss@Nov 29 2005, 06:09 PM
1989-91 Honda Civic DX

All three are on the same chasis:
The 89-91 Standard is 70 HP in ITC at 2140lbs.
The 89-91 DX is 92 HP in ITA at 2225lbs.
The 89-91 Si is 110HP?? in ITA at 2175lbs.

Both the DX and Standard are Dual Point and the Si is Multipoint.  The standard is 4 speed, the DX is 5-speed, and the Si is the exact same 5-Speed that is in the DX. 

So how does the identical car (DX compared to Si) with 20+ HP less and 50lbs heavier try and compete in ITA?  I think the 1989-91 Honda Civic DX belongs in ITB.  I don't know how fast you could make the DX in ITB.  It may not be a top runner.  The HP, brakes, handling would be more fitted to ITB then ITA tho at probably ITC weight: 2140.  I mean even the 89-91 CRX Si which has the same motor as the Si only weighs in at 2140 and that is definitly a front running ITA car.

In a nut shell:

1989-91 Honda Civic DX move to ITB at 2140 lbs.

Thanks
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I appologize. I went back and read the "tweeners" definition again. This car fits all of those stipulations minus that you can't take enough weight off to make it competitve where it is and can't add enough to make it competitive in the lower class.

Sorry for the space.
 
Let me lay my cards on the table here: I have an 85 ITA MR2 and a 72 ITB Opel GT.

From what has been said here it is ITA got it's self screwed over when newer Hondas where thrown into the mix....it all went down hill from there.

Just what do you think is going to happen when you toss an RX7 in ITB. A class where the cars running there have been there just as long as the 7 has been in ITA. I will answer it for you, you will upset the apple cart. Unless you put so much weight on it that it will be ok, then the 7 drivers will gripe about their car being too heavy...it has already started in this thread. But it seems from your statements that you don't care about the ITB you only care about the 7 and its drivers.

If what you said is true then every car under the performance of the Hondas should be moved to ITB. Does that sound like a good idea to anyone?

I tell you what, give the Hondas some weight or an air restrictor and slow them down, don't mess up ITB like ITA is messed up.

Either way I will come out ok. I will run the Opel in Prod starting in 07 and the MR2 in ITB, if that is the way it goes.

I just hate to see you mess up ITB just to keep one group of drivers happy, the RX7 drivers. I don't hear anything from anyone else execpt perhaps a squeek from the MR2 drivers. Last time I checked there where other old cars out in ITA other then these two makes.

Even if the only car that I drove was the MR2 I would not be infavor of putting it in ITB at a ton more weight. It would take all the fun out of running the car....turn it into a pig.

Just my two pennys worth. Take it for what you will.
 
Originally posted by cherokee@Nov 29 2005, 08:21 PM
Let me lay my cards on the table here:  I have an 85 ITA MR2 and a 72 ITB Opel GT. 

From what has been said here it is ITA got it's self screwed over when newer Hondas where thrown into the mix....it all went down hill from there.

Just what do you think is going to happen when you toss an RX7 in ITB.  A class where the cars running there have been there just as long as the 7 has been in ITA.  I will answer it for you, you will upset the apple cart.  Unless you put so much weight on it that it will be ok, then the 7 drivers will gripe about their car being too heavy...it has already started in this thread.  But it seems from your statements that you don't care about the ITB you only care about the 7 and its drivers.

If what you said is true then every car under the performance of the Hondas should be moved to ITB.  Does that sound like a good idea to anyone?

I tell you what, give the Hondas some weight or an air restrictor and slow them down, don't mess up ITB like ITA is messed up.

Either way I will come out ok.  I will run the Opel in Prod starting in 07 and the MR2 in ITB, if that is the way it goes.

I just hate to see you mess up ITB just to keep one group of drivers happy, the RX7 drivers.  I don't hear anything from anyone else execpt perhaps a squeek from the MR2 drivers.  Last time I checked there where other old cars out in ITA other then these two makes.

Even if the only car that I drove was the MR2 I would not be infavor of putting it in ITB at a ton more weight.  It would take all the fun out of running the car....turn it into a pig.

Just my two pennys worth.  Take it for what you will.
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You are reading way to much into this. Might it be possible that there are more 'squeeks' from the 7 guys because there are HUNDREDS more of them?

The MR2 and RX-7 could be made to fit in ITB. As you have stated, they may have to weigh more than is acceptable for the drivers and the equipment. I think it can work but the possible ramifications to ITB may just outweigh the upside.

As you may have read here, there is also a strategic classification plan before the CRB that sends a huge amount of already classed cars through the process we use for new classifications. As you would expect, the class overdogs show they need some weight and the underdogs show they need a break. Hopefully, you will see a nice balancing of the classes that may eliminate the request for reclassifications.

AB
 
I will not start crying till I see the final results of your work....IF at all. I like to think I am open minded to see the bennifits to all.

I think that you guys will make the right decision. I do have faith in the ITAC. I have talked to one member (very briefly) and walked away very impressed. You guys take lots of heat and I know you are trying fix past wrongs.

I just want to say some things that you might not have thought of.
 
Andy - you missed my point. I realize that IT2 is now ITA. But if Kirk got his way, every car that was not in the IT2 envelope would still be in ITA. (the tweeners etc.). Thus splitting ITA into 2 as Jake spoke of. The only tweak was to put the CRX and 240SX into IT2 - which are in the performance envelope as was noted on Kirk's site.

At the time, I didn’t support “IT2” because to me it was semantics – I like the idea of what has happened. Call (IT2+CRX+Miata+240 ) ITA. But the next step is to move just about everything else to ITB. The slugs in ITB then go to ITC.

I don't think that the CRX messed up ITA at all. It just propagated the performance of the class. In fact, I think ITA is VERY healthy right now with large fields and lots of choices. (thanks ITAC/CB!!) ITB is the one that needs help. Ancient Volvo’s and Opels are NOT what IT is about. Those are not easily available cars that are cheap to run. The can go to Historic.

For those who don’t want to upset the precious balance of ITB, that bus already left the station! Take a look at the 2005 ARRC results. The new ITA-ITB moves absolutely dominated. Volvo who?! Don’t get me wrong, this is a GOOD thing!!! The new cars are cheaper to get, run, build, and maintain. But there is no question that most of the “other” (non-IT2 envelope) ITA cars fit into the performance envelope of the newest ITA-ITB moves as well.
 

I will remain calm......

Where does it say that the 7 goes to B??? Where did you infer that I don't care about ITB??
I used the 7, and noted my reasons, (it is a poster child for the "problem") as an example. I went on to say that I, and the other ITAC members have spent countless hours, working on a large scale strategic plan that runs buckets of cars through the process..I think I stated, -ad nasuem- that we want every car to have a chance, whenever that can be made to happen.

If what you said is true then every car under the performance of the Hondas should be moved to ITB.  Does that sound like a good idea to anyone?

Again...you are leaping to conclusions....


I just hate to see you mess up ITB just to keep one group of drivers happy, the RX7 drivers.  I don't hear anything from anyone else execpt perhaps a squeek from the MR2 drivers.  Last time I checked there where other old cars out in ITA other then these two makes.

Should I go baqck and quote myself??? I said we look at buckets and buckets of cars, and I even named a few..like the Fiero...relax, you are preaching to the chior when it comes to old cars...nobody likes diversity more than me. I would give my eye teeth to see Jeff and his Triumph run head to head for the win with Chet and his E36. How cool would that be??? I love cars! All cars! I want the Corvair to come out and play...but pragmatically, I know thats not going to happen as those guys are all racing or tracking their cars in less dangerous manners. I wish it weren't so, and I lament that it might be because things like the Honda classification happened in the first place.

Even if the only car that I drove was the MR2 I would not be in favor of putting it in ITB at a ton more weight.  It would take all the fun out of running the car....turn it into a pig.

Just my two pennys worth.  Take it for what you will.
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Again....it's all about a process, and a big picture...if the CRB likes the idea, a lot of tweaking will happen to try to bring things into balance. That includes cars from ALL spectrums. Not everyone will be happy of course......

Repeat after me...

Jake likes ALL the classes
Jake wants everyone to have a fair chance if it is at all possible.
Jake doesn't want to upset any apple carts and make dogs out of previously good cars.
Jake wants the process to spit out cars of equal potential that, when prepped and driven well, can run for a win.

I think that you can say the same for all the guys on the ITAC.
 
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 30 2005, 03:06 AM

As you may have read here, there is also a strategic classification plan before the CRB that sends a huge amount of already classed cars through the process we use for new classifications.  As you would expect, the class overdogs show they need some weight and the underdogs show they need a break.  Hopefully, you will see a nice balancing of the classes that may eliminate the request for reclassifications.

AB
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Andy,

... I have one question about "adjustments". Where in the world did they come up with the driver weight being 180 lbs? Must have been in the Ethiopian Region :D

... Considering the average in this region I would think 200 lbs would be the standard. Can anything be done about this?
 
Originally posted by Jake@Nov 29 2005, 11:56 PM
I don't think that the CRX messed up ITA at all.  It just propagated the performance of the class.  In fact, I think ITA is VERY healthy right now with large fields and lots of choices.  (thanks ITAC/CB!!)    ITB is the one that needs help.  Ancient Volvo’s and Opels are NOT what IT is about.  Those are not easily available cars that are cheap to run.  The can go to Historic.

I disagree....and rathre strongly. Sending them to historic is telling them to take their cars, their dollars, their personalities, the whole shebang and leave the club. I just don't think we NEED to do that. The problems just aren't that huge.

ITAs performance envelope increased dramtically with the inclusion of the CRX, and then was fortified with the addition of the 240SX and the Integra ....at that point in time, the rest of the class became also rans in the big picture. I also don't think that wsa required. The class could have kept it's balance if the cars were classed more appropriatley. Just think what ITA would be like if the cars you mentioned were running head to head with some of the "old guard"! Now THAT would be a HEALTHY class!

For those who don’t want to upset the precious balance of ITB, that bus already left the station!  Take a look at the 2005 ARRC results.  The new ITA-ITB moves absolutely dominated.  Volvo who?!   Don’t get me wrong, this is a GOOD thing!!!  The new cars are cheaper to get, run, build, and maintain.   But there is no question that most of the “other” (non-IT2 envelope) ITA cars fit into the performance envelope of the newest ITA-ITB moves as well.
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Be carefull! Don't let the results of ONE race fool you! Was ITB dramatically faster than it was when the Volvos were up front?? The other classes ran at or under track records, but ITB didn't.

As for the Volvos, don't leap to conclusions....you can't always trust what you see. One car doesn't tell the whole story. Sam Moore qualified slower than he has in the past. Why is that??? Well , thats a good question...we just don't know. And in the race, he (as I am SURE you know, LOL) ran afoul in an ambitious move and flattened his right front tire on a certain pal of ours fender and bumper, and was out of the race.

ITB showed an Accord in 1st and 3rd, Golfs well placed, and I bet there is an Audi or two that would have been mixing it up if it had shown, and a Prelude was in the mix as well...but nobody was seconds under the lap record.
 
If the old cars have set the standard of the class and no new cars will fit into that class, what do you do. You made a mistake in ITA and ITS. Fix it with restrictors or weight or put them in classes and expect overdogs. Just don't move the old top dog down just to keep the HUNDREDS of them happy THIS IS WHAT I OBJECT TO, not to NEW cars coming into IT.

Good night....I am tired.

I am glad that I have time to come back and particapate in these discussions.
 
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