VIR lap times for ITS
- Thread starter Parrish57
- Start date
HI Steve,
If I'm not mistaken Chet was mid to high 2:15s in the "orange" car. With all the talk about the 325s, lets not forget the driver in this case is big part of the overall time. Great comparison to look at. well prepped Z versus, well prepped 325, same driver.....3 seconds.
"I propose 250 pound spare tire insert".
David Spillman
There was a big discussion ( uproar ) recently about Chet Wittel's lap times of 2:12.954 at VIR in his Bimmer. Does anyone know what kind of times he ran in his Z car?
Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
If I'm not mistaken Chet was mid to high 2:15s in the "orange" car. With all the talk about the 325s, lets not forget the driver in this case is big part of the overall time. Great comparison to look at. well prepped Z versus, well prepped 325, same driver.....3 seconds.
"I propose 250 pound spare tire insert".
David Spillman
There was a big discussion ( uproar ) recently about Chet Wittel's lap times of 2:12.954 at VIR in his Bimmer. Does anyone know what kind of times he ran in his Z car?
Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
Mike Spencer
New member
Before you decide, take a look at the following website; http://www.ih2000.net/ira/bmt-wth.htm
Tropical Storm/Depression Bonnie is scheduled to pass through the Carolinas Friday morning, and then Tropical Storm Charley is due around dawn on Saturday.
Pack your rain tires!!!
------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)
tankwasher
New member
When the green was dropped on this years MARRS/SARRC I was told that Whittel's car had us(the rest of the field) by eleven car lenghts by turn one. Thats not driving expertise, thats just horsepower. I wonder why none of the other BMW's are not so dominant????
Jeff, Its been a while, but I think in qualifing was in the mid-high 2:15
Tankwasher:
[When the green was dropped on this years MARRS/SARRC I was told that Whittel's car had us(the rest of the field) by eleven car lenghts by turn one. Thats not driving expertise, thats just horsepower. I wonder why none of the other BMW's are not so dominant????]
Tankwasher,
There are only 3-4 "built to the max" 325s out there that I'm aware of. York,Stubbs,Whittle,Stepp,and Seths old car
Stubbs could pull my old car 10-15 car lengths lap after lap at road atlanta last year.
As far as Chet is concerned
Hate to sound like a cheerleader, but the guy can drive...
Honestly, I feel that over the past couple of years, the fast 325s have made it a point to not be as dominant as is possible.
Find me an extra 10-15 car lengths, and I to could be fast
david spillman
[This message has been edited by dspillrat (edited August 11, 2004).]
Tankwasher:
[When the green was dropped on this years MARRS/SARRC I was told that Whittel's car had us(the rest of the field) by eleven car lenghts by turn one. Thats not driving expertise, thats just horsepower. I wonder why none of the other BMW's are not so dominant????]
Tankwasher,
There are only 3-4 "built to the max" 325s out there that I'm aware of. York,Stubbs,Whittle,Stepp,and Seths old car
Stubbs could pull my old car 10-15 car lengths lap after lap at road atlanta last year.
As far as Chet is concerned
Hate to sound like a cheerleader, but the guy can drive...
Honestly, I feel that over the past couple of years, the fast 325s have made it a point to not be as dominant as is possible.
Find me an extra 10-15 car lengths, and I to could be fast
david spillman
[This message has been edited by dspillrat (edited August 11, 2004).]
Parrish57
New member
Thanks... I just wanted to throw that out for my own comparison. My new Z got down to the 2:19's last weekend and I think there is more to be found in the driver and maybe the car as well, but I'm still a long way away from the "Orange" cars.
David, did you go to Sebring last weekend?
Jeff... I can't go to CMP because of training for the new job, but if it doesn't flood Bryan might come down to watch.
Steve
David, did you go to Sebring last weekend?
Jeff... I can't go to CMP because of training for the new job, but if it doesn't flood Bryan might come down to watch.
Steve
JeffYoung
New member
David, that silver Z is fast and pretty, and getting faster. If 2:16s are possible, and they may be, then most of the BMWs will hae something to worry about, especially if there are two rust racers (red and silver) at teh front.
My rust racer is still being held back by the anchor known as "driver".......
My rust racer is still being held back by the anchor known as "driver".......
Ron Earp
Administrator
How much hp does a 325 have in IT trim? I went up to the VIR race this weekend to take a look at cars and check out prep since seeing cars allows me to quickly determine what must be done. Saw a lot of nice ones, but didn't see any BMWs that I can recall and I was hoping to just to see what prep work on them involved.
As a newbie it is always interesting to see what the approximate end result in hp for particular cars is knowing what the starting place is. How about the sencond generation RX7s (13B maybe? I've forgotten it has been so long).
Thanks,
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 12, 2004).]
As a newbie it is always interesting to see what the approximate end result in hp for particular cars is knowing what the starting place is. How about the sencond generation RX7s (13B maybe? I've forgotten it has been so long).
Thanks,
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 12, 2004).]
JeffYoung
New member
Guys, not inviting a flame war here, but just throwing out for Ron some numbers I have heard. All numbers are IT trim, at the crank:
325i: 235-240
13B RX7: 190-200
240Z: 180-190
TR8: 170-180
Alfa Milano, Acura GSR and 190E I don't know, but I do know "Irish Mike's" 190E is fast, as is the silver Milano Verde the Butler's, as are some of the GSRs.
325i: 235-240
13B RX7: 190-200
240Z: 180-190
TR8: 170-180
Alfa Milano, Acura GSR and 190E I don't know, but I do know "Irish Mike's" 190E is fast, as is the silver Milano Verde the Butler's, as are some of the GSRs.
Ron Earp
Administrator
Maybe I missed something, flame war? I hope not, just curious on hp specs.
230-245 is pretty stout for a motor rated at 189 factory, but I'm not that familar with BMWs. Just surpised to see a gain of that much with exhaust and fuel/timing mapping. For a naturally asprirated car that is a stout jump.
I don't feel that I'll be able to get the JH much over 140-150. Stock rating was 140, but that was not the US Federal rating, which I'm told is more like 125 or so but not published.
I suppose having a chassis dyno at a SCCA event isn't done? Would be a lot of fun.
------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
230-245 is pretty stout for a motor rated at 189 factory, but I'm not that familar with BMWs. Just surpised to see a gain of that much with exhaust and fuel/timing mapping. For a naturally asprirated car that is a stout jump.
I don't feel that I'll be able to get the JH much over 140-150. Stock rating was 140, but that was not the US Federal rating, which I'm told is more like 125 or so but not published.
I suppose having a chassis dyno at a SCCA event isn't done? Would be a lot of fun.
------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
JeffYoung
New member
David, I'm laughing, I thought were talking about our cars being old and rusty compared to the BMWs.
Steve certainly appears to be shaking off the rust, having knocked I think what is it Steve, six seconds of his VIR times from March. Awesome.
Ron, didn't direct the flame comment at you, was just trying to avoid the sometimes nasty debate you get on here when you address teh touchy subject of horsepower.
Jeff
Steve certainly appears to be shaking off the rust, having knocked I think what is it Steve, six seconds of his VIR times from March. Awesome.
Ron, didn't direct the flame comment at you, was just trying to avoid the sometimes nasty debate you get on here when you address teh touchy subject of horsepower.
Jeff
Ron Earp
Administrator
Understood on the hp thing, so, I take that as verification that a chassis dyno is not a welcome sight at a IT race? I'll certainly use on to tune my car, as I do with my others, but I won't have to worry much with hp until a couple of seasons since I think I'll be the biggest impediment to fast laptimes, not the motor.
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
Here are some real dyno numbers: Top builders...
E36: 220 RWHP (yup, that's OVER 255 crank using 15%)
RX-7: 175 RWHP
If BMW had a 'Mazdacomp', there would be many more! God I loved my 95 E36 M3...dang.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
E36: 220 RWHP (yup, that's OVER 255 crank using 15%)
RX-7: 175 RWHP
If BMW had a 'Mazdacomp', there would be many more! God I loved my 95 E36 M3...dang.
AB
------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Parrish57
New member
Hey! Who's calling me and my car RUSTY? That's gotta be worth another second a lap! Just kidding! I knew what David meant. The car was quit literally a rust bucket before the sand blasting. It did clean up nicely if I do say so myself and I greatly appreciate the compliments, Jeff. As for the driver(s), we were very disappointed the first time we took the car to VIR but it was just a combo of rusty drivers and new car bugs. I'm just about where I was with the old white car at it's peak. Here's to hoping that the silver bullit hasn't peaked yet!
Steve
Steve
Ron Earp
Administrator
That is dang impressive, 255 at the crank from 2.5L with no head/cam work and only 0.5 increase in compression, it is phenomenal. Whoever is doing this needs to sell it to folks on the BMW forums, they'll get rich quick.
Edit - after kicking around on the BMW forums and verifying what I thought, folks aren't getting that sort of rear wheel hp from their E36 M3s at 3.2L and variable valve timing. I've got a E36 M3, but haven't dynoed it since I use it as a daily driver.
I sort of figured the RX7 would be about where it is as they really can open up with some exhaust work allowing it to sing (relative term here as I think they are a nasty sounding motor at speed, sorry).
Thanks for the info Andy, I enjoying seeing where folks are in development.
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 12, 2004).]
I'm inferring that you think they're cheating to get that kind of horsepower? Frankly, I'd wager they're not. Consider several factors:
- These engines are being built by professional race builders, like Rebello. Not a garage rebuild...
- The engine in those BMWs has gone through INCREDIBLE amounts of development for many professional series over the years, from World Challenge to FIA. It's a hell of a base design.
- The ones that are making that kind of power are running Motec engine management systems, the same systems used by most professional race teams. These systems have been modified/designed to fit in the factory ECU box using the factory unmodified wiring harness. This ain't no plug-in Superchips, baby...
- The headers and exhaust systems on these engines are tuned works of art, some using stepped airflow technology. Not a bolt-on back-of-a-magazine header.
- Simply put, they've spent a lot of money and done a lot of development and homework to get there. It's very impressive from a techie/geek side of things.
However, if these guys are cheating then they're all fools for doing so: building cars up to that level of performance will absolutely result in them getting b-slapped with extra weight. And if they've been "holding back" to not super-out-perform the lesser competition then that will go to the wayside as more of them enter the fray and they HAVE to step it up. Ultimately, I see the cars being reigned in long-term.
If you want to get mad at someone, get mad at the ITAC, Comp Board, and SCCA for not having the foresight to see the development ability in that car, a car that - in hindsight - probably should not have been classified in ITS to begin with. However, what's done is done, so don't get mad at the competitors themselves for taking advantage of it, simply envy them and ask for performance compensation from the SCCA.
Me? I'm glad they're moving my car to ITA (fingers crossed...)!
Greg Amy
#3 ITS Nissan NX2000
All of 135 *F*WHP
http://www.kakashiracing.com
- These engines are being built by professional race builders, like Rebello. Not a garage rebuild...
- The engine in those BMWs has gone through INCREDIBLE amounts of development for many professional series over the years, from World Challenge to FIA. It's a hell of a base design.
- The ones that are making that kind of power are running Motec engine management systems, the same systems used by most professional race teams. These systems have been modified/designed to fit in the factory ECU box using the factory unmodified wiring harness. This ain't no plug-in Superchips, baby...
- The headers and exhaust systems on these engines are tuned works of art, some using stepped airflow technology. Not a bolt-on back-of-a-magazine header.
- Simply put, they've spent a lot of money and done a lot of development and homework to get there. It's very impressive from a techie/geek side of things.
However, if these guys are cheating then they're all fools for doing so: building cars up to that level of performance will absolutely result in them getting b-slapped with extra weight. And if they've been "holding back" to not super-out-perform the lesser competition then that will go to the wayside as more of them enter the fray and they HAVE to step it up. Ultimately, I see the cars being reigned in long-term.
If you want to get mad at someone, get mad at the ITAC, Comp Board, and SCCA for not having the foresight to see the development ability in that car, a car that - in hindsight - probably should not have been classified in ITS to begin with. However, what's done is done, so don't get mad at the competitors themselves for taking advantage of it, simply envy them and ask for performance compensation from the SCCA.
Me? I'm glad they're moving my car to ITA (fingers crossed...)!
Greg Amy
#3 ITS Nissan NX2000
All of 135 *F*WHP
http://www.kakashiracing.com
G
Guest
Guest
Ed York and Sam Asiningo(sp?) do the same thing to the entire ITS field at Summit Point every race. 1 lap, and they have up to 5 or more second lead.
Most of the mid pack cars get lapped not once, but twice in a 16 lap race.
York has dropped the ITS lap record at Summit from the 1:28's to the high 1:24's in the past few years.
No car besides an E36 has won a race at SP since 2000.
Funny how the E-36 was put in ITS, yet, the Z32 300ZX with 222 stock HP (and more weight)has been denied repeatedly.
Rumor has it that York has been asking his "competitors" to petition the CB to move the E-36 to E/P so he can have soe competition. No one in regional E/P wants the car, as it is already running lap times that would put it in the top 3 while still in ITS trim.
Used to have up to 25 cars in ITS, Rx-7's, 240-260-280 and 280ZX's, 944's and E-30s in years gone by with great competition and near equality between makes. Now the field is nearly all E-36's with most of the other cars gathering dust in drivers garages. Pretty sad if you ask me....
Since when did IT "require" you to spend so much just to stay on the same lap as the leader so you can actually get your money's worth. Mid pack cars now spend the same amount as the leaders on entry fees to run 2 less laps every weekend.
Run 8 races in the MARRS series in a mid pack car( which aren't all that cheap to compete with either), you end up paying for 16 laps you never got a chance to run.
NO car other than the E-36 has run a sub 1:26 lap at Summit yet, although the one Integra has come close.
[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited August 12, 2004).]
Most of the mid pack cars get lapped not once, but twice in a 16 lap race.
York has dropped the ITS lap record at Summit from the 1:28's to the high 1:24's in the past few years.
No car besides an E36 has won a race at SP since 2000.
Funny how the E-36 was put in ITS, yet, the Z32 300ZX with 222 stock HP (and more weight)has been denied repeatedly.
Rumor has it that York has been asking his "competitors" to petition the CB to move the E-36 to E/P so he can have soe competition. No one in regional E/P wants the car, as it is already running lap times that would put it in the top 3 while still in ITS trim.
Used to have up to 25 cars in ITS, Rx-7's, 240-260-280 and 280ZX's, 944's and E-30s in years gone by with great competition and near equality between makes. Now the field is nearly all E-36's with most of the other cars gathering dust in drivers garages. Pretty sad if you ask me....
Since when did IT "require" you to spend so much just to stay on the same lap as the leader so you can actually get your money's worth. Mid pack cars now spend the same amount as the leaders on entry fees to run 2 less laps every weekend.
Run 8 races in the MARRS series in a mid pack car( which aren't all that cheap to compete with either), you end up paying for 16 laps you never got a chance to run.
NO car other than the E-36 has run a sub 1:26 lap at Summit yet, although the one Integra has come close.
[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited August 12, 2004).]