watkinsglen ITA best race of the year?
- Thread starter dazzlesa
- Start date
T
Tom Blaney
Guest
Jeeze, I was hoping that you were gonna say the the massive power and torque of that Bullet Proof Motor just pulled you right off the track and into the armco.....
Reminds me of an old Road & Track P.S. picture of a driver, casually lighting a cigarette with his crashed Ferrari in the background with the caption "Good tires", Mario mused "but definitely NOT great tires".
Armco is more than a bit unforgiving - I've seen my share of very flat and very short cars at the Glen. If you'd only held out for the next turn, you could have used the nice fluffy styrofoam instead - it looks like a miniature snow storm when it gets hit. Glad that you were undamaged (physically) - mentally, you've been damaged for years...
With the closely timed double-yellows that kept the field packed together, I felt like I was at Summit Point - in the middle of the ITB race with no one to pass...
dave parker
New member
I have very mixed feelings about the race at Watkins Glen this past weekend.
I have never been to the Glen before.
It is a scary fast track with no room or margin for error. That being said once I figured out that it was a momentum track things started to come together. Thanks to the many people who gave advice on how to get around.
The Positives:
Meeting some of the people like Eli Garrett(Shine), Bill and Don (Bildon) although I did not get to talk with Bill, Jake Gulick(who started next to me WAY in the back and finished 25th).
Seeing the MARRS regulars a long way from home.
The chance to race on a piece of sports car racing history.
Eating dinner Saturday night at the Seneca Lodge(another piece of history).
Being able to drive the car back into the trailer with no new damage after the race.
The Negatives:
The surly, unhelpful grid workers. When I came to the grid I was told by the worker there "Your in the back so your grid position does not matter. Just go out in any order that you feel like." What kind of F@#king bullshit is that? Thanks and kudos to Tom Hoffman and Tim Meddaugh who happened to walk by, and were asked by several drivers to straighten things out. Which they did.
The rude security people. Who after the same security guy(#921) followed us around the paddock for fifteen minutes on Friday evening and told us twice that spots we were looking at could not be used as a camping/paddock spot, only then did he go and open up another paddock area for us and quite a few others to use. I guess the out of state tags and the repeated statements of "I have never been here before so I don't know where I can go" meant nothing to him.
The driver of the number 28 ITA car. This car qualified in the back with me. He repeatedly held me up in the twisties where I was all over him, but when we got to the straight sections he would walk away, only to hold me up in the next complex of turns. Then when the first FCY came out, rather than "bunch up" with the rest of the field he lopes along with about one hundred yards between him and the car in front of him. All I wanted to do was get back up to where the ITC race was, I could see it, but he would not help me to get up there. No point by either. When the track went green again I had to dive bomb him in the heel of the boot to get by him. It scared me and him. But I was back into the ITC race finally. Lesson trying to be passed on "Don't race cars that are not in your class."
A scheduled 11 lap race becoming a 9 lap race with 5 laps under FCY. What a drag! It was explained to me later that it is a standard tactic in the northern part of the Northeast division to penalize all the drivers in a race group for the mistakes and poor judgement of a few drivers. Yeah, shit happens and cars wreck in racing, but why make everyone suffer for the mistakes of a few?
I had fun, the positives outweighed the negatives, but I will have to give some serious thought to going back.
cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC#97
I have never been to the Glen before.
It is a scary fast track with no room or margin for error. That being said once I figured out that it was a momentum track things started to come together. Thanks to the many people who gave advice on how to get around.
The Positives:
Meeting some of the people like Eli Garrett(Shine), Bill and Don (Bildon) although I did not get to talk with Bill, Jake Gulick(who started next to me WAY in the back and finished 25th).
Seeing the MARRS regulars a long way from home.
The chance to race on a piece of sports car racing history.
Eating dinner Saturday night at the Seneca Lodge(another piece of history).
Being able to drive the car back into the trailer with no new damage after the race.
The Negatives:
The surly, unhelpful grid workers. When I came to the grid I was told by the worker there "Your in the back so your grid position does not matter. Just go out in any order that you feel like." What kind of F@#king bullshit is that? Thanks and kudos to Tom Hoffman and Tim Meddaugh who happened to walk by, and were asked by several drivers to straighten things out. Which they did.
The rude security people. Who after the same security guy(#921) followed us around the paddock for fifteen minutes on Friday evening and told us twice that spots we were looking at could not be used as a camping/paddock spot, only then did he go and open up another paddock area for us and quite a few others to use. I guess the out of state tags and the repeated statements of "I have never been here before so I don't know where I can go" meant nothing to him.
The driver of the number 28 ITA car. This car qualified in the back with me. He repeatedly held me up in the twisties where I was all over him, but when we got to the straight sections he would walk away, only to hold me up in the next complex of turns. Then when the first FCY came out, rather than "bunch up" with the rest of the field he lopes along with about one hundred yards between him and the car in front of him. All I wanted to do was get back up to where the ITC race was, I could see it, but he would not help me to get up there. No point by either. When the track went green again I had to dive bomb him in the heel of the boot to get by him. It scared me and him. But I was back into the ITC race finally. Lesson trying to be passed on "Don't race cars that are not in your class."
A scheduled 11 lap race becoming a 9 lap race with 5 laps under FCY. What a drag! It was explained to me later that it is a standard tactic in the northern part of the Northeast division to penalize all the drivers in a race group for the mistakes and poor judgement of a few drivers. Yeah, shit happens and cars wreck in racing, but why make everyone suffer for the mistakes of a few?
I had fun, the positives outweighed the negatives, but I will have to give some serious thought to going back.
cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC#97
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Maybe you can explain this a little further.
AB
------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
spnkzss
New member
I'll have to agree with "Dangerous Dave" on the majority of what he had to say. The track is fun, but for the first time in my life I was actually scared. The spin that I had stopping a mear 18 inches from the armco at the top of the boot in the left hand turn onto NASCAR straight was not as bad as going 20-30mph faster than someone through the fast sweeping right hander after the chicane and meeting them at the apex with nowhere to go. (Wow what a run on sentence that was).
All in all I'm happy. I finished 5th and took home 3rd place MARRS Points on a track I've never driven before. It was well worth going up and look forward to doing it again next year.
Spanky
#03 ITC 1990 Honda Civic ITC
All in all I'm happy. I finished 5th and took home 3rd place MARRS Points on a track I've never driven before. It was well worth going up and look forward to doing it again next year.
Spanky
#03 ITC 1990 Honda Civic ITC
spnkzss
New member
That would be me. The real scary part of that was on the left hand side of that photo there was 2 flaggers at the top of the boot that I was watching. They weren't paying too much attention, or giving me any direction. I figured of all the flaggers to find they were the best because they could tell me when it was clear. The only thing I got out of the deal was the yellow flag was handed from one flagger to the other. Me in my infinite wisdom thought "maybe if I back up a little and face them they will get the hint" all while facing counter race. That was kind of scary turning back around not knowing what was coming up the hill since the hint was not working (being male I should know hints don't work). All of this happened while Big John ,who helped me build the car, was on the side lines in his truck watching.
Luckily I was able to get back out without getting hit. Thank you to everyone that paid attention to the yellow flag and came through the corner cautiously
Spanky
#03 ITC 1990 Honda Civic WDCR
RSTPerformance
New member
Dave Parker and others-
Your statement: "It was explained to me later that it is a standard tactic in the northern part of the Northeast division to penalize all the drivers in a race group for the mistakes and poor judgment of a few drivers. Yeah, shit happens and cars wreck in racing, but why make everyone suffer for the mistakes of a few?"
IS SO FAR OFF BASE THAT THE RUMOR NEEDS TO BE STOPED NOW!!!
I can tell you first hand that all of the operating stewards are volunteers and they are at these events for the same reason all of you are, to see or have great races. I have not met anyone in SCCA that likes to see full course yellows and I know that they are avoided at all costs. A full course yellow is treated as a last resort just before a black flag all and/or a red flag.
The reason that Watkins Glenn has more full course yellows than most tracks is a whole story in itself and I do not have all the answers on it so I will not go into that other than to tell you that the rescue crew at Watkins Glenn is run separately from SCCA and due to this some accidents are treated similar to NASCAR events. I can assure you that I have personally worked in the tower at Watkins Glenn with the stewards in that region and they all want you to have a green race flag to flag. I can honestly say that the stress level in the tower far exceeds that of any driver or crew during a full course yellow. They are doing everything possible to get you back to green faster.
I would suggest that you talk to whoever told this to you and ask that you have them along with yourself apologize for the insult in effort taken by the volunteers that make your event what it is.
Sorry to get defensive, but this is something that I have always herd as a driver as well, and after being on the "other side" it is the farthest from the truth.
Raymond “sorry to go on a rant, but I didn’t like the comment
” Blethen
Your statement: "It was explained to me later that it is a standard tactic in the northern part of the Northeast division to penalize all the drivers in a race group for the mistakes and poor judgment of a few drivers. Yeah, shit happens and cars wreck in racing, but why make everyone suffer for the mistakes of a few?"
IS SO FAR OFF BASE THAT THE RUMOR NEEDS TO BE STOPED NOW!!!
I can tell you first hand that all of the operating stewards are volunteers and they are at these events for the same reason all of you are, to see or have great races. I have not met anyone in SCCA that likes to see full course yellows and I know that they are avoided at all costs. A full course yellow is treated as a last resort just before a black flag all and/or a red flag.
The reason that Watkins Glenn has more full course yellows than most tracks is a whole story in itself and I do not have all the answers on it so I will not go into that other than to tell you that the rescue crew at Watkins Glenn is run separately from SCCA and due to this some accidents are treated similar to NASCAR events. I can assure you that I have personally worked in the tower at Watkins Glenn with the stewards in that region and they all want you to have a green race flag to flag. I can honestly say that the stress level in the tower far exceeds that of any driver or crew during a full course yellow. They are doing everything possible to get you back to green faster.
I would suggest that you talk to whoever told this to you and ask that you have them along with yourself apologize for the insult in effort taken by the volunteers that make your event what it is.
Sorry to get defensive, but this is something that I have always herd as a driver as well, and after being on the "other side" it is the farthest from the truth.
Raymond “sorry to go on a rant, but I didn’t like the comment
Understood - that's part of the frustration for many of the drivers, not just MARRS competitors but competitors in general that The Glen management's critera for Black Flag All or FCY is too cautious.
During the incident involving the blue CRX, that could have easily been covered by a local yellow since it only affected the heel of the boot to the exit onto the Nastycar track. The incident involving the 2002 falls under the same auspices - neither car completely blocked the track or even blocked more than 1/2 lane of the track since they were both stuffed into Armco. Had a car been blocking the majority of the track then a FCY or BFA would be warranted depending on the position of the car and the severity of the incident. From my limited racing experience at Slummit Point, when a car is in a bad place (track out point for example), a local yellow and good workers are all that's necessary to get it cleaned up quickly.
Speaking of workers - I spoke with a DC Region flagger who was is generally unflappable but was visibly upset that The Glen mgmt forces him to stay behind the fence AT ALL TIMES. His comment was that "I fully accept the risks of being in front of the fence - that's part of what I do as a flagger/worker"
I've been to the Glen for several years now with the MARRS series - so many times that some of the locals know me and throw things at me just like they do at home. I find the track incredibly challenging both from a mental and technical standpoint. However, after paying big bucks and travelling 7 hrs one way for perhaps 7 laps of racing, I'm starting to re-evaluate whether this track is worth my time and effort.
Flame away - I'm fairly certain I've offended someone somewhere...
Haz-Matt
dave parker
New member
Raymond
I have no reason to apologize.
The comments about the grid workers are factual and can be confirmed by several other drivers, some of whom frequent here.
The fact is that the track went FCY for the first incident that could have been handled under a local yellow or go BFA, get the cars off the course and work the incident. The second incident, the BMW on its roof in the entrance to the boot, could also have been handled under a FCY or BFA with a minimal loss of race laps. Both drivers involved in these incidents are good friends of mine, and were out of the cars and ok.
The trouble is that the Glen safety crew does not do "hot" pulls and that greatly inhibits the SCCA region putting on the race.
I flagged for three years before I started racing, I still hold a regional F&C license. No one is more concerned for the safety of the volunteers out there than me. Most of them are friends whom I have hoisted more than a few ales with. But the facts are that the Group 3 racers got hosed.
Not only did someone tell me that this happens, I got to see it happen up close and personal. I understand your being defensive concerning the local volunteers,I would and have done the same with our DC Region workers. I also understand that the operating steward at a race at the Glen has a "track representative" standing with them "advising" them on what can and cannot go on. I am sure that after Alton Fryer rolled his BMW, the "adviser" said that we were done get us off the track.
I do invite you to come to Summit Point and watch the EV crew do a hot pull. The racers cooperate and let them get their job done so that we can race. Everybody gets the most out of the track time.
I think that your rant is unwarranted. But I do not begrudge you your opinion on the matter. That is the best part about a free country, you can have your opinion.
cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC#97
[This message has been edited by dave parker (edited July 26, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by dave parker (edited July 26, 2005).]
I have no reason to apologize.
The comments about the grid workers are factual and can be confirmed by several other drivers, some of whom frequent here.
The fact is that the track went FCY for the first incident that could have been handled under a local yellow or go BFA, get the cars off the course and work the incident. The second incident, the BMW on its roof in the entrance to the boot, could also have been handled under a FCY or BFA with a minimal loss of race laps. Both drivers involved in these incidents are good friends of mine, and were out of the cars and ok.
The trouble is that the Glen safety crew does not do "hot" pulls and that greatly inhibits the SCCA region putting on the race.
I flagged for three years before I started racing, I still hold a regional F&C license. No one is more concerned for the safety of the volunteers out there than me. Most of them are friends whom I have hoisted more than a few ales with. But the facts are that the Group 3 racers got hosed.
Not only did someone tell me that this happens, I got to see it happen up close and personal. I understand your being defensive concerning the local volunteers,I would and have done the same with our DC Region workers. I also understand that the operating steward at a race at the Glen has a "track representative" standing with them "advising" them on what can and cannot go on. I am sure that after Alton Fryer rolled his BMW, the "adviser" said that we were done get us off the track.
I do invite you to come to Summit Point and watch the EV crew do a hot pull. The racers cooperate and let them get their job done so that we can race. Everybody gets the most out of the track time.
I think that your rant is unwarranted. But I do not begrudge you your opinion on the matter. That is the best part about a free country, you can have your opinion.
cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC#97
[This message has been edited by dave parker (edited July 26, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by dave parker (edited July 26, 2005).]
dickita15
New member
yes dave the glen has a management problem, but I think what got young mr blethen going is your generalzation about how they do it up north. I too have hoisted a few with summit flaggers and they are trained dedicated and competant. but they are not the only ones.
Dick Patullo
NER SCCA
Dick Patullo
NER SCCA
RSTPerformance
New member
Dave-
Dick is partially correct, the other part missing is that it IS NOT SCCA thats making it a FCY, it is that "advisor" whom allows us to play. I don't like it nor do I agree with the advisors need to have a FCY for almoast every incident, I also found multiple corner workers that work for the Glenns "click" to be unfreindly. The Glenn does this for every "Club" or "Organization that runs at the track from NASCAR to local club stuff.
I have no opinion on the grid workers, they might have been poor, wasn't thier so I can't judge that, I can say that any race you go to at NHIS or Lime Rock you will not have that problem (Different people).
And as far as picking up cars while the track is "Hot" that is not an issue with the Northeast SCCA either, All of the SCCA rescue crews can handle that without an issue. Remember that the Glenn is not using SCCA rescue workers it is completely handled by the track. Bash the "Glenn" (actually I think it is DCI) workers all you want, just don't say that anyone in SCCA doesn't want to see you play, and have a fair race, its not fair to the hard work they put in, and if you don't think I am telling you the truth then I invite you to come to the tower with me, I am sure that I can arange something.
Raymond "I can actually say that I have learned a lot this year" Blethen
PS: Dave, just trying to educate you on a little bit of the other side, I have found out they actually do care... a lot.
Dick is partially correct, the other part missing is that it IS NOT SCCA thats making it a FCY, it is that "advisor" whom allows us to play. I don't like it nor do I agree with the advisors need to have a FCY for almoast every incident, I also found multiple corner workers that work for the Glenns "click" to be unfreindly. The Glenn does this for every "Club" or "Organization that runs at the track from NASCAR to local club stuff.
I have no opinion on the grid workers, they might have been poor, wasn't thier so I can't judge that, I can say that any race you go to at NHIS or Lime Rock you will not have that problem (Different people).
And as far as picking up cars while the track is "Hot" that is not an issue with the Northeast SCCA either, All of the SCCA rescue crews can handle that without an issue. Remember that the Glenn is not using SCCA rescue workers it is completely handled by the track. Bash the "Glenn" (actually I think it is DCI) workers all you want, just don't say that anyone in SCCA doesn't want to see you play, and have a fair race, its not fair to the hard work they put in, and if you don't think I am telling you the truth then I invite you to come to the tower with me, I am sure that I can arange something.
Raymond "I can actually say that I have learned a lot this year" Blethen
PS: Dave, just trying to educate you on a little bit of the other side, I have found out they actually do care... a lot.
dave parker
New member
Raymond
I know that the people in the tower(and elsewhere at the track) care. I have friendships (both at the track and away from the track) with quite a few of the stewards from the DC Region. I have had many "good" trips to the tower. I have no reason to doubt your word on the dedication of the SCCA volunteers because I have seen it first hand as well as living it myself. I have seen you be a stand up kinda guy here on this very forum. I too operate that way, if I am wrong I will admit it. You can ask anyone in the DC Region how many "jobs" I have had at one time within the region. The SCCA is a club, and a club functions successfully from the efforts of its members.
Perhaps, what the region that is running an event at the Glen needs to do is explain the operating procedures in the Supplemental Regulations(ALL drivers read the Supps,right?). This would help everyone to understand up front what is going to happen. This would also help to dispel any rumors floating around.
I still had fun at the event despite the problems. I will however think twice before going now that I know about the over-management problem at the Glen. There still is no excuse for what happened on the grid. An apology is still owed to the drivers for that fiasco.
cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC#97
I know that the people in the tower(and elsewhere at the track) care. I have friendships (both at the track and away from the track) with quite a few of the stewards from the DC Region. I have had many "good" trips to the tower. I have no reason to doubt your word on the dedication of the SCCA volunteers because I have seen it first hand as well as living it myself. I have seen you be a stand up kinda guy here on this very forum. I too operate that way, if I am wrong I will admit it. You can ask anyone in the DC Region how many "jobs" I have had at one time within the region. The SCCA is a club, and a club functions successfully from the efforts of its members.
Perhaps, what the region that is running an event at the Glen needs to do is explain the operating procedures in the Supplemental Regulations(ALL drivers read the Supps,right?). This would help everyone to understand up front what is going to happen. This would also help to dispel any rumors floating around.
I still had fun at the event despite the problems. I will however think twice before going now that I know about the over-management problem at the Glen. There still is no excuse for what happened on the grid. An apology is still owed to the drivers for that fiasco.
cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC#97
RSTPerformance
New member
Dave-
Thank you for the understanding... thats all I wanted
and also I agree that a notice (part of or not part of the sups) should be included, and I will continue to support that more notices are given to drivers as SCCA continues to change due to a tracks requirements, not SCCA's.
As far as Grid, I hope someone from that region read and addressed your complaint even though they didn't coment on it here. I know that many people read this site but don't comment, probably for good reason
Anyway, thanks for listening to my point, see you at the track and thank you for speeking your mind, I think it is good to hear what people think sometimes
Raymond
Thank you for the understanding... thats all I wanted
and also I agree that a notice (part of or not part of the sups) should be included, and I will continue to support that more notices are given to drivers as SCCA continues to change due to a tracks requirements, not SCCA's.
As far as Grid, I hope someone from that region read and addressed your complaint even though they didn't coment on it here. I know that many people read this site but don't comment, probably for good reason
Anyway, thanks for listening to my point, see you at the track and thank you for speeking your mind, I think it is good to hear what people think sometimes
Raymond
Excellent shots James... thanks for sharing these. I'm sending you an email with a request...
------------------
-dave
nerdsracing.com
8)
James,
I'm not sure the message got through to you. Basically I'd like to use a couple of shots in the South Jersey newsletter. Meg Meyer, who won the ITC race, is in our region and I'd like to use an image or two with her story for the next newsletter.
Here's my email address:
emwavey @ yahoo.com (remove spaces)
------------------
-dave
nerdsracing.com
8)
I'm not sure the message got through to you. Basically I'd like to use a couple of shots in the South Jersey newsletter. Meg Meyer, who won the ITC race, is in our region and I'd like to use an image or two with her story for the next newsletter.
Here's my email address:
emwavey @ yahoo.com (remove spaces)
------------------
-dave
nerdsracing.com
8)
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Dave...
One guy in grid approached me, maybe apologetically, and explained that they were surprsed by the size of our group..it was 65 cars, and they had no markings for more than was it 55 or so?
So they sent me to the gravel. As for me, I might just as well have started last, LOL> THey did get it sorted out, but I know we are all used to being put in a spot and then we can get ready.
In hindsight, I probably should have started last, as the car hadn't turned a wheel except for the trip from paddock to grid after "the hit"...I'm sure at least the two guys behind me would have felt better, LOL.
In a seperate matter, would you shoot me a private email, addy below?? Thanks!
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
One guy in grid approached me, maybe apologetically, and explained that they were surprsed by the size of our group..it was 65 cars, and they had no markings for more than was it 55 or so?
So they sent me to the gravel. As for me, I might just as well have started last, LOL> THey did get it sorted out, but I know we are all used to being put in a spot and then we can get ready.
In hindsight, I probably should have started last, as the car hadn't turned a wheel except for the trip from paddock to grid after "the hit"...I'm sure at least the two guys behind me would have felt better, LOL.
In a seperate matter, would you shoot me a private email, addy below?? Thanks!
------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]