Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? (just a bit long

Daryl, you haven't "solved the problem" you have merely changed your staus, and left the problem behind. That is not fixing it.

Look, not many of us have issues with washer bottles...I have issues with guys who have gone EP, but they still race in ITA.

Why is it so bad to have issues with that???

(And regarding the comment about the only way to stop cheating is to adopt a run what you brung class, well yes, obviously its hard to cheat when there are no rules, but is that really relevant?)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited May 23, 2004).]
 
Do you guys regularly see any blatant cheating? I don't here in the Southeast, maybe I'm missing it. Not cars obviously faster than they should be, etc. I'm pretty pleased actually, I think this group runs pretty square.

You get the impression sometimes from this forum that half the cars out there are illegal. In reality, to me anyway, I would guess about 1-2% are substantively illegal, by which I mean something seriously done to increase performance (cam, porting, etc.).
 
I did not indicate that we should charge all classes $ to tech IT. I suggested a small fee (a dollar?) be collected at every (for example) SARRC points race. Then that money could be used for getting the right tech people and tools to tech stuff (to be determined) at the bigger race (such as the SARRC Invitational).
 
Jake I fought the good fight, I called chief tech and asst tech at home and left a detailed message on how I would supply all the gaskets necessary to tear down all the rotarys and check ports and intakes, niether would return my repeated calls, pointed it out the same at the track and was told I was a trouble maker, f- that, came here and bitched and was told I just sucked as a driver and like the above poster "its only a small percentage", well if that 2 percent is on the podium where in the hell does that leave you? tech dosnt care about IT because there are no garrantees of competitiveness anyway and they will be the first to tell you maybe you shouldnt have brought a knife to a gunfight, end of story. change the rules.



[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited May 24, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
To someone at the location, who has seen that particular cars behavior and know the history, it might indicate the result of good development work, or something afoul of the rules. It doesn't mean the car is illegal, bt it can be a fator in making the decision to investigate further.

If a teardown proves the car is legal, no foul
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Except for the poor bastard to just had his sweet engine torn down. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

I can live with group teardowns, protests, teardown by lottery, and probably a few others, but mandatory dyno testing is something I will never accept. If I have to race somewhere else, so be it. I see a lot of heartache in the long run, including full competition adjustments to follow.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
You would go to another org before anyone sees your dyno numbers? you sound like you have something worth hiding george, your just trying to get someone to pay to fix those nasty oil leaks the germans learned from the english, both payback for conquest by the way.
 
7's, chill man. It's CLUB racing. We do it for FUN. Yeah, it costs a lot and takes a lot of time and cheaters suck. But I just do't see such rampant cheating here in the SEDiv (or suspect it) such that I feel like anything drastic is necessary. Not saying your driving sucks, not saying anything at all really other than I doubt more than a small, small percentage are cheating and I even more highly doubt they are anywhere near the podium.
 
Basically what I am trying to say is this:

Cheating happens and always will. But there are ways to reduce the temptation to cheat. And they do not have to be drastic ones, but the ones that are currently in place need to be enhanced.

Hoods up and the possibility of an full inspection would be great. (other then by a fellow racer protesting) I spoke with Ray more about his class policing the field. Great idea! But a key to why it has been successful is that it is a group of people working together to monitor the classes legality. Not just one person by themselves. It really takes the pressure and stress away from being that one evil person.

I am not saying there is rampant cheating amoung everyone. But yes, I do know it is happening. A small percentage? Hopefully. But what if that small percentage is the people in front of you? - (By no means am I saying this is the case! Just a retorical question)

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
Basically what I am trying to say is this:

Cheating happens and always will. But there are ways to reduce the temptation to cheat. And they do not have to be drastic ones, but the ones that are currently in place need to be enhanced.

Hoods up and the possibility of an full inspection would be great. (other then by a fellow racer protesting) I spoke with Ray more about his class policing the field. Great idea! But a key to why it has been successful is that it is a group of people working together to monitor the classes legality. Not just one person by themselves. It really takes the pressure and stress away from being that one evil person.

I am not saying there is rampant cheating amoung everyone. But yes, I do know it is happening. A small percentage? Hopefully. But what if that small percentage is the people in front of you? - (By no means am I saying this is the case! Just a retorical question)

Maybe all it would take is to make everyone better educated about the protest process. Have a "protest" guidlines sheet (more info. then what is in the GCR). Like a tip / how to do properly. How much it would cost approximately for certain items. How much would this cost to do? Not much. Would this be too disruptive? I can't believe it would be but am sure someone will say why bother, it is perfectly spelled out in the GCR.

What do you think the reaction would be if this were handed out to every person in the registration line and told that there will be a manditory impound after their race? Probably similar to what Wayne's story on the other impound post would be.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
Im not saying any of you particular guys said my driving sucked which im sure truly could be proven since my engines keep seizing up but in the past when this forum discussed prospective changes in the intent rules it was divided by those with class overdogs and the rest of us with the overdogs claiming its not the cars or the rules but the drivers that was to blame, in a club where a vote is needed to change its going to be partison along these lines.
 
Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
You would go to another org before anyone sees your dyno numbers?
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Another org? Probably not. I'd probably move to Production, although it is possible I'd set up 944 Cup in Texas instead, but I really have little interest in spec or single make racing.

Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
you sound like you have something worth hiding george, your just trying to get someone to pay to fix those nasty oil leaks the germans learned from the english, both payback for conquest by the way.
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LOL! No, the Germans got the ideas for oil leaks from the Brits, but the Brit oil leaks are simple. The Germans, true to form, have to make very complicated oil leaks. Furthermore you must tear down almost the entire engine and have a tool box full of special tools just to fix the leaks. And again, remembering it's German, if the seals/gaskets are installed a tenth of a millimeter off, it will leak again.

I assure you I have nothing to hide, except said oil leaks.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
George, that's the third time you've threatened to quit racing SCCA if we start dyno testing cars. Stop being so childish; do you REALLY think we'll all change our positions just to keep you in SCCA racing? I know you have a damn-near stock car, but the protests are a bit much, "methinks."

Dyno testing is yet another performance data point, just like lap times and race results. It's a data point that can be used for multiple things (just like lap times): classifications, weight adjustments/PCAs, reclassifications, and, yes, even references for protest decision (just like - HORRORS! - lap times and results).

Yet, unlike race results and lap times, it's unique in that it completely isolates the car away from the driver, and away from the track. There's no way that Bob Stretch or Randy Pobst is going to be able to finesse or drive a better dyno pull than Dave Gran in the same car, and a dyno test at Laguna Seca is not going to be significantly different than one done at Lime Rock to the same car (corrected for environmental conditions). You want a way to properly adjust VEHICLE classification, independant of driver and track? You got a better idea than this?

It's not a witch hunt, either; if someone's willing to pull down a car on dyno results, they're already thinking about pulling it down for race results. See my discussion near the top here in regards to bad blood. And, if I do get pulled apart, somehow I'm OK with it if it's done due to race results, but I'm pissed off because it came as a result of a dyno test? Wha...???

Dyno testing works. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like it. And it's not without precedence in the SCCA, either.

Just another data point, my friends, one that I'll volunteer to offer at the next event possible.
 
Okay, then here is an idea. It may seem a bit idealistic, but I am sure there are many of you who will point that out.

As we all agree that it is a small number of people who are cheating (or "creatively preparing" their cars), and as each car type is different (and has its own ways to cheat) and as we are all supposed to be honest and moral people who are doing this for FUN, how about setting aside a half hour at every race meeting (maybe during lunch) where all the drivers of each type of car (VW, BMW, Nissan, Neon, RX7, etc) get together and go from car to car and look them over. Not take anything apart, just look under the hood and at the suspension and ask questions and compare notes. If the group finds anything, they can all talk about it and if it was a mistake on the part of the owner they can suggest how to fix it. If it was a cheat, they can suggest it be redone by the next weekend. It''s called peer pressure. Anyone whose car passes this review by committee could get a sticker or something to place on their car ("Check Me!" or something like that). Maybe we could get someone to print up a pile of stickers as a donation to the cause. Anyway, the idea would be if you didn't want to have a bunch of fellow competitors look closely at your car, the implication would be that you must have something to hide. People could wear their stickers with pride. Okay, it won't clear up people with illegal cams and combustion chambers and porting etc, ad nauseum, but it might get people to think about what they are doing and why they are doing it and it might reduce honest mistakes in preparation from people who don't know that they aren't supposed to.

Obviously, people who aren't running a popular type of car are going to feel a bit lonely in this process, but then they proabaly do already...

If this became a national movement, maybe we would end up policing ourselves without expecting "Big Brother" to do it for us.

Comments?

Kevin
VW GTi
 
Originally posted by grega:
George, that's the third time you've threatened to quit racing SCCA if we start dyno testing cars. Stop being so childish; do you REALLY think we'll all change our positions just to keep you in SCCA racing?
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Childish? You're too funny. Where do you come up with shit like this? Or more importantly, why?

First of all I only mentioned leaving IT. I'd probably just move to Production. I could form 944 Cup in Texas, but probably wouldn't because spec and one make racing doesn't interest me much - I've said this many times.

Secondly, I don't expect anyone to do anything to keep me around. I've already said if the membership wants to go that way I'll step down from the ITAC and move on. I don't see anything childish there.

Originally posted by grega:
I know you have a damn-near stock car, but the protests are a bit much, "methinks."
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Really? You have first-hand knowledge of my car? I think not. Besides, what does this have to do with anything?

Originally posted by grega:
It's not a witch hunt, either
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Oh it would be.

I can see people arguing for full production style comp adjustments due to the results.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited May 24, 2004).]
 
Jeez guys....this is turning down right nasty. Lets face the facts, the Tech guys are pressed for time and can barely check car weights when we come off the track. This idea of dynoing or tearing down heads will NEVER happen. You think Im going to hang out after a regional race and have my head removed!@#@!??, and trust someone to put it all back...thats crap. If someone is far fast on the straights, everyone in the class should get together and protest....end of story. It has happened here in the NE and it worked. Dont waste your breath thinking some teck guys will be removing cams and micing them.
 
I fully support what Kevin suggested above. Everyone should be able to look at everyone elses car and make SUGGESTIONS as to what may or may not be legal. It goes back to the honor system, and we are supposed to be having fun. I realize there will always be someone who will spend every last nickle and possibly cheat to win. For me at this stage of the game (Regional racing), I am in it for the racing experience, not the results. If I wanted to race like a professional and demand winning results, then I would go National and get into E-Prod.

Pauly D

[This message has been edited by paulydee (edited May 24, 2004).]
 
Firstly, I realize that some of the things are not realistic. The attitude here should be what can we do versus the BS - ah, we can't do that! Yes, I know we can't have tech inspectors taking apart engines till midnight after the race. That would stink for all involved. But more could be done then currently exists!

The idea Kevin, Ray and others suggested is great. The sticker idea is cool as well. Power in numbers - isn't that the point of this discussion?

And mention leaving the board? Ummm. O.k. For you to mention or "threaten" that is pretty funny. Especially when it is simply a thread on the IT board. What is the ITAC? I thought it was part of the competition board. I wouldn't imagine that anyone on the competition board would fight against ensuring cars are legal.

What cracks me up even more is that many complain about a car being adjusted or reclassified that is very similar performance wise. Yet some of them don't care if another person is illegally getting an extra 15 HP? No one here (to my knowledge) has said this outright, but this attitude does exist.

As for the dyno - I certainly wouldn't mind if someone dyno-ed my car. That would be so great; I could make changes from race to race and see what the results are without going to a dyno shop.
biggrin.gif


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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
First of all I want to apologize to Greg Amy and to the readers here. It's obvious Greg an I have been getting a little personal here and it surprised me because Greg and I have been friends and raced in an enduro together (OK, the car was handed to me broken and I did one lap, but that's not the point....
smile.gif
).

Greg and I have spoken off-line and I have a little more reading to do here, but....

Originally posted by Geo:
I'm against the chassis dyno idea. I'd go race somewhere else. First of all, big numbers doesn't mean someone is cheating. Second of all, it's nobody else's damned business what hp my car is putting down. Go mind your own business.

My God, this is regional racing.
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I didn't think anything of saying "Go mind your own business" because it was not directed to Greg or any person in particular. Looking back, I can see where this could be seen as personal and quite rude.

Greg, I'm sorry. It never occured to me because it was the last thing on my mind that I mean you or anyone here, but more people in general.

I have some more rereading to do here, but the above was certainly not the best thing I could have said and certainly could be taken as an attack.

So, my motto is, do wrong in public, apologize in public. I also apologize to the readers here for what I may have inadvertantly started.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
its not your fault, its that Grattenberg tea, out here we just call it buyers remorse
smile.gif
 
Originally posted by grega:
...One thing that does fly well was alluded to earlier: peer pressure and shame. While I've seen some competitors over the years revel in their infamy, most want their peers to accept them as a legitimate winner. So, if one can peer pressure others into compliance, it's a win-win. Some good ideas that have worked include "interventions" where competitors go to someone in the paddock and demand compliance, other good ideas include open-hood policies after sessions so everyone can get a look. Sure, you can't spot a camshaft in an open hood, but it's fun to watch and see who's nervous about having others looking and who's not. Besides, if you're willing to toss in a camshaft, you're probably slipping in other things, too...
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Funny as I started reading the thread the same thought occured to me... shame.
We could hire Terry Jones of Monty Python fame to come in dressed up as Brian's Mom... If caught Terry can read over the loud speaker such-and-such "... has been a naughty, naughty boy..."
 
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