What do I do about this?
- Thread starter Jim Royal
- Start date
jay05
New member
You should try to make the I.T. Fest. ITC had 15 entrees last year.
jumbojimbo
New member
Here is what makes the Nelson ITC races so cool to me. Divisional shootout race (GLD vs NEDIV). Sunday's Race on May 17:
Driver Best time
Bill Shearer 1:22.915
Jim Hardesty 1:23.002
Jim Royal 1:23.976
Jason Jacko 1:24.033
Jon Schnider 1:24.129
Ryan Scott 1:25.106
Gumkoski 1:27.122
Hornack 1:31.271
I don't have the race intervals for Sunday but in the Saturday race I was 3rd to Jim Royal by 0.35 seconds.
And other than a little bump drafting I don't think any ITC cars have hit each other in 6 great races this year at Nelson.
You can see why having an SM car among us acting like a pinball with no regard to other people is a little irritating.
Driver Best time
Bill Shearer 1:22.915
Jim Hardesty 1:23.002
Jim Royal 1:23.976
Jason Jacko 1:24.033
Jon Schnider 1:24.129
Ryan Scott 1:25.106
Gumkoski 1:27.122
Hornack 1:31.271
I don't have the race intervals for Sunday but in the Saturday race I was 3rd to Jim Royal by 0.35 seconds.
And other than a little bump drafting I don't think any ITC cars have hit each other in 6 great races this year at Nelson.
You can see why having an SM car among us acting like a pinball with no regard to other people is a little irritating.
Jeremy Billiel
New member
Why is he in a miata anywhere near you? Shouldn't his lap times be much faster?
Russ Myers
New member
Because he can't drive a ten penny nail. I've been mugged by Miata's on more than one occasion. In some instances, they don't own the cars, so why should they care about your sheetmetal. I was knocked about by a rent-a-Miata once at Charlotte. He was trying to win the UNTIMED practice session HALF A LAP AWAY FROM THE GRID. When confronted, he told me he was trying to keep up with his friends. He was then informed of his lap times and he wouldn't be able to keep up even if he had a formula 1 car. Sometimes, they just don't care. Afterall, they are the world's greatest race drivers.
Russ
Russ
StephF
New member
I've said this before and got truly flamed for it.
I'll say it again, but with clarity this time.
It's nothing to do with the cars. Miatas look like they could be fun.
It's EVERYTHING to do with it seeming that we are getting away from teaching sportsmanship on the track. In all too many cases, it's perfectly fine in the offending driver's eyes to block, chop, hit, shove, and have constant metal to metal contact, in and OUT of their own race group. People....you can't do that. Read the GCR.
I don't know if the message is being taught and ignored in the schools, or if it's gotten lost in the hustle bustle of a school schedule. Maybe the drivers coming in are more aggressive and are not paying attention, (hell, if you want to see aggression, try driving in Boston these days!)
But the simple fact of the matter is, many of us have been hit, blocked, chopped, spun, slammed, banged, totaled and taken out by driving that was more than just a "race incident". And this is happening all across the classes.
Having your brakes fade in the deepest part of a braking zone causing you to hit the car in front of you (despite your best efforts to avoid him) is a race incident.
Driving into the side of someone to stop them getting by you is boneheadedness.
The videos posted in this thread show a "Mememememememe" type of driver who has no clue whatsoever, and furthermore, probably doesn't care.
True racing skill is being able to run doorhandle to doorhandle with someone, trade places on turns, or get by them cleanly WITHOUT CONTACT.
True racing skill is being able to be AWARE of cars that get close to you or alongside you.
We have (or should have) peripheral vision. I've been put over curbs by cars I was completely alongside, like front wheel to front wheel by drivers who later confessed they had no idea I was there. (HOW do you not see something big, metal, and multicolored right next to you?)
A true racer will NOT deliberately impede another race group's race. If you aren't actively dicing for position yourself, and another set of cars is on you, especially if they are running for the lead in their race, LET THEM GO! (I did that in a race that my husband and I were in. He lapped me and I let the second place car in his class through without any bullshit. Not my race, not my place to get in the middle of theirs)
The GCR has been relegated to a manual used to defend people's position, be it technical or in protest. Far too few ever truly look at sections that cover racing conduct.
I don't know what the answer would be to change this trend. All I can say is this kind of reckless driving has cost a lot of people a lot of time and money, even leading to some drivers walking away from SCCA.
I also want to remind those drivers who do indulge in it this kind of driving, that in the words of our own Bruce Kapstan, "We're just racing for a f**king ashtray."
And as long as we have to share track time with other groups, we are going to run into this.
OK, I'm getting off my soapbox. Where's my f**king ashtray?
I'll say it again, but with clarity this time.
It's nothing to do with the cars. Miatas look like they could be fun.
It's EVERYTHING to do with it seeming that we are getting away from teaching sportsmanship on the track. In all too many cases, it's perfectly fine in the offending driver's eyes to block, chop, hit, shove, and have constant metal to metal contact, in and OUT of their own race group. People....you can't do that. Read the GCR.
I don't know if the message is being taught and ignored in the schools, or if it's gotten lost in the hustle bustle of a school schedule. Maybe the drivers coming in are more aggressive and are not paying attention, (hell, if you want to see aggression, try driving in Boston these days!)
But the simple fact of the matter is, many of us have been hit, blocked, chopped, spun, slammed, banged, totaled and taken out by driving that was more than just a "race incident". And this is happening all across the classes.
Having your brakes fade in the deepest part of a braking zone causing you to hit the car in front of you (despite your best efforts to avoid him) is a race incident.
Driving into the side of someone to stop them getting by you is boneheadedness.
The videos posted in this thread show a "Mememememememe" type of driver who has no clue whatsoever, and furthermore, probably doesn't care.
True racing skill is being able to run doorhandle to doorhandle with someone, trade places on turns, or get by them cleanly WITHOUT CONTACT.
True racing skill is being able to be AWARE of cars that get close to you or alongside you.
We have (or should have) peripheral vision. I've been put over curbs by cars I was completely alongside, like front wheel to front wheel by drivers who later confessed they had no idea I was there. (HOW do you not see something big, metal, and multicolored right next to you?)
A true racer will NOT deliberately impede another race group's race. If you aren't actively dicing for position yourself, and another set of cars is on you, especially if they are running for the lead in their race, LET THEM GO! (I did that in a race that my husband and I were in. He lapped me and I let the second place car in his class through without any bullshit. Not my race, not my place to get in the middle of theirs)
The GCR has been relegated to a manual used to defend people's position, be it technical or in protest. Far too few ever truly look at sections that cover racing conduct.
I don't know what the answer would be to change this trend. All I can say is this kind of reckless driving has cost a lot of people a lot of time and money, even leading to some drivers walking away from SCCA.
I also want to remind those drivers who do indulge in it this kind of driving, that in the words of our own Bruce Kapstan, "We're just racing for a f**king ashtray."
And as long as we have to share track time with other groups, we are going to run into this.
OK, I'm getting off my soapbox. Where's my f**king ashtray?
RacerBill
New member
Steph, you are right on! Metal to metal contact, shoving, etc MUST NOT be allowed. This is serious stuff, and there is a high risk of injury or worse. There will always be racing incidents and 'racing incidents', however even these MUST be avoided. In defense of true racing incidents, I have come close, once when a car dive bombed me after I started my turn in and the side of windowsill of the brick I was driving was about six inches highter than normal and his hood was much lower (I did not see him until I saw his roof). When I had checked my mirrors, he was twenty-thirty feet behind me. You can't keep watching your mirrors all the time, gots to see where you need to be turning!.
But back to racing incidents. Today we lost a fellow driver, from what I understand was a racing incident, not a single car incident. I did not see the incident, and it is still being investigated, but while I was at the track, I did not hear any comments that implied that there was any contact or deliberate offensive driving. One does not have to be grossly negligent in our sport to cause bodily injury. Deliberate stupidity cannot be allowed to continue.
Bonehead driving MUST be stopped. I read most of the reports of the COA, and I do not remember any appeal that involved a fine. Don't we issue fines anymore? They are still available as penalties. And in the case of metal to metal contact, how about if a large percentage of the fine was awarded to the offended driver to help fix the damage to his car.
But, again, even if there are no fines, a protest would establish a paper trail that could be reviewed at license renewal time. I am glad that I have a video acquisition system in my car, and would be willing to use any video as evidence. I have one video (taken at Nelson Ledges, by the way) of a SM at the start of the Saturday race at the Great Pumpkin last year that absolutely hammered an ITC car at the start of the race. Investigation of the data and two of the three camera recordings show that the driver of the car that was hit was not shifting at the point of impact. Looking at the video from the rear camera shows the SM intentionally dropping back and getting a good run on Karl. And the cockpit camera shows his head flying back againt the seat on impact. Speed data shows a instantaneous increase in speed by about 5 mph at the time of the impact. Karl was too nice to persue the matter.
And I do stress sportsmanship and good judgement with the students that I instruct at drivers' school.
OK, I'll get off my soap box now.
But back to racing incidents. Today we lost a fellow driver, from what I understand was a racing incident, not a single car incident. I did not see the incident, and it is still being investigated, but while I was at the track, I did not hear any comments that implied that there was any contact or deliberate offensive driving. One does not have to be grossly negligent in our sport to cause bodily injury. Deliberate stupidity cannot be allowed to continue.
Bonehead driving MUST be stopped. I read most of the reports of the COA, and I do not remember any appeal that involved a fine. Don't we issue fines anymore? They are still available as penalties. And in the case of metal to metal contact, how about if a large percentage of the fine was awarded to the offended driver to help fix the damage to his car.
But, again, even if there are no fines, a protest would establish a paper trail that could be reviewed at license renewal time. I am glad that I have a video acquisition system in my car, and would be willing to use any video as evidence. I have one video (taken at Nelson Ledges, by the way) of a SM at the start of the Saturday race at the Great Pumpkin last year that absolutely hammered an ITC car at the start of the race. Investigation of the data and two of the three camera recordings show that the driver of the car that was hit was not shifting at the point of impact. Looking at the video from the rear camera shows the SM intentionally dropping back and getting a good run on Karl. And the cockpit camera shows his head flying back againt the seat on impact. Speed data shows a instantaneous increase in speed by about 5 mph at the time of the impact. Karl was too nice to persue the matter.
And I do stress sportsmanship and good judgement with the students that I instruct at drivers' school.
OK, I'll get off my soap box now.
John Nesbitt
New member
This posting illustrates two important points.
First, there are not likely to be any significant license consequences (suspension, driver review, requirement to re-take drivers school) without a paper trail. These penalties typically don't get handed out for a first offence.
There are cases from the Court of Appeals where an SOM court handed down a severe penalty (suspension) to a driver who had some history, but no paper trail. The CoA reduced the penalty because it was out of proportion to the offence, and there was no history (i.e. paper) on the driver.
Draw your own conclusions.
Second, the GCR makes it clear that there is a shared responsibility among stewards and drivers for rules enforcement.
When I am an operating steward, I try to investigate every report of contact. However, not every contact gets called in from the corners. This isn't NASCAR or F1; we don't have video from every inch of the track.
The posting cites an incident where there appears to have been evidence of avoidable contact, yet the victim did not protest because he is "too nice". That's nice, but the offender suffered no consequence at all.
Complaining months later on a website does absolutely nothing at all to correct this behavior. If this is truly an issue, file a protest. Otherwise, don't complain when the behavior continues.
StephF
New member
I agree totally with a paper trail. It sucks to have to initiate it, but when it's necessary, it has to happen. Been there, done that, didn't get the tee shirt. (I don't qualify as "too nice" to file a protest. 
)
I also think the more data the better. We have run cameras front and rear in our cars. And we've caught people ramming us, putting us off in the gravel. (and I also caught Ed as he was spinning backwards, flipping of the hitter as their cars were nose to nose in the busstop at the Glen...LOL)
I think data acquisistion is very important. The more info recorded, the better.
I know the stewards and workers aren't responsible for calling in/handling incidents. I don't expect that.
BUT....is there anything the club, or the drivers could do to slow/stop/reverse this seemingly growing trend towards rough/careless driving?
What is causing it? Is it the huge number of classes we have that run together?
Is it the schooling the drivers are receiving prior to racing?
Are we getting more drivers with a sense of "entitlement", and acting like they aren't really part of the club? (I've heard this mentioned as a reason, but can't say I've run into it)
Should the driver's schools involve testing on the GCR, select portions of it that many random questions would be selected from, much like a state driver's test?
Or should a section drilling home conduct both on and off the track, be part of the school process?
With that in mind, could drivers (such as the one referenced in this thread) be remanded to reschooling sessions if enough incidents are recorded?
Does this vary from region to region? I remember being really impressed with running at Road America, how clean everyone raced. Why? Geographics? Regional politics? Why would one area race cleaner (seemingly) than another?
Last, but not least, to those who have a longer history that I running with SCCA (I've only been racing since '98) do you see this issue as a constant problem, one that is the same that it's always been, or has it worsened significantly over the years?
If it is worse now, than why? Maybe if the cause could be identified, we could put safe guards in place to correct it.
We will always have the odd one who rams through the field like an errant bowling ball, but that should be the exception, not the rule.
)I also think the more data the better. We have run cameras front and rear in our cars. And we've caught people ramming us, putting us off in the gravel. (and I also caught Ed as he was spinning backwards, flipping of the hitter as their cars were nose to nose in the busstop at the Glen...LOL)
I think data acquisistion is very important. The more info recorded, the better.
I know the stewards and workers aren't responsible for calling in/handling incidents. I don't expect that.
BUT....is there anything the club, or the drivers could do to slow/stop/reverse this seemingly growing trend towards rough/careless driving?
What is causing it? Is it the huge number of classes we have that run together?
Is it the schooling the drivers are receiving prior to racing?
Are we getting more drivers with a sense of "entitlement", and acting like they aren't really part of the club? (I've heard this mentioned as a reason, but can't say I've run into it)
Should the driver's schools involve testing on the GCR, select portions of it that many random questions would be selected from, much like a state driver's test?
Or should a section drilling home conduct both on and off the track, be part of the school process?
With that in mind, could drivers (such as the one referenced in this thread) be remanded to reschooling sessions if enough incidents are recorded?
Does this vary from region to region? I remember being really impressed with running at Road America, how clean everyone raced. Why? Geographics? Regional politics? Why would one area race cleaner (seemingly) than another?
Last, but not least, to those who have a longer history that I running with SCCA (I've only been racing since '98) do you see this issue as a constant problem, one that is the same that it's always been, or has it worsened significantly over the years?
If it is worse now, than why? Maybe if the cause could be identified, we could put safe guards in place to correct it.
We will always have the odd one who rams through the field like an errant bowling ball, but that should be the exception, not the rule.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
What's causing this in part is us. We're too lazy/pressed to leave the track/disdainful of paperwork and the hassle/disdainful of face to face conflict or lacking backbone to step up and write the paper.
Truly it's sometimes a "no big deal". Maybe the guy WAS an ass, but the resulting damage will buff out, and the wife/husband is on the phone wondering when you're going to be home, the kids crying for their Mom/Dad, etc etc, it's hot, you're tired, bla bla bla, and the call is made to 'Just forget about it"
Paperwork is stressful. Protests cause people to leave the sport, even when they are in the right. I've seen it happen.
So, on one hand, we have to man up more. While the Asshat was a bully to us but caused no real damage, the next time might be different. He sees his behavior as "the norm" because nobody objects to it.....and continues driving in that manner. And, if somebody DOES complain, his egotistical/defensive reaction is, "YOU must be the jerk, because NObody has ever said a THING to me about my driving." And hey, there are 100 cars at the events he attends that he can hit before he hits the same one twice in some areas, so there is no "reputation". Guys like that can have thick heads, and thick heads need lots of pounding to get the point through.
On the other hand, I'd love it if the Stewards could be sterner about it, and if corner workers called in more incidents. Recently, at Lime Rock, we had a car go off in Big bend. EV came out, so we had a standing yellow at that corner, and later at Start/Finish. I was racing hard with a guy who has pushed me aside before, and is up on me in hp., and I'd been defending the inside of that corner. Because I knew we'd see a standing yellow for several laps there, as EV pulled the car, I took my normal line, and braked a bit early, as a mistake under braking would result in me sliding into the workers...(a tangent thing). My follower ignored that risk, and dove inside to make the pass for 3rd. IT DIDN'T GET CALLED IN. Then, on the very next lap, he DID IT AGAIN to the guy in second! I chuckled. "See ya at the bottom of the results, pass under yellow boy!", I thought.
IT DIDN'T GET CALLED IN EITHER!
It was So blatant, I assumed it would be. So I'M guilty too, of not running over after the race and making a stink.
Results didn't indicate it, and the guy who got passed for 2nd had even gone to the Stewards about it. Good for HIM.
I did too, but later. The Chief Steward was fair, and pointed out that he had no "proof" that it had happened. No video in my car, and inconclusive in his eyes in the other guys car. He stated that the pass could have been completed by the time we crossed the perpendicular line at the flag station. I responded, "Maybe so, but by the hair on your chin, and if I had pressed the issue, he would have been guilty, as he wouldn't have been able to complete the pas by then, but because I was concerned for the workers safety, he gets away with it?" He also said that he interviewed the offending driver, and asked if he saw the flag at start finish? "What flag". That's right, he missed that one, and pushed his luck on the other!
Result?
"I gave him a stern talking to".
I respect the CS, and his actions in this case, assuming he was bound by the GCR and protocol to do what he did.
But, that crap sure shouldn't fly.
Truly it's sometimes a "no big deal". Maybe the guy WAS an ass, but the resulting damage will buff out, and the wife/husband is on the phone wondering when you're going to be home, the kids crying for their Mom/Dad, etc etc, it's hot, you're tired, bla bla bla, and the call is made to 'Just forget about it"
Paperwork is stressful. Protests cause people to leave the sport, even when they are in the right. I've seen it happen.
So, on one hand, we have to man up more. While the Asshat was a bully to us but caused no real damage, the next time might be different. He sees his behavior as "the norm" because nobody objects to it.....and continues driving in that manner. And, if somebody DOES complain, his egotistical/defensive reaction is, "YOU must be the jerk, because NObody has ever said a THING to me about my driving." And hey, there are 100 cars at the events he attends that he can hit before he hits the same one twice in some areas, so there is no "reputation". Guys like that can have thick heads, and thick heads need lots of pounding to get the point through.
On the other hand, I'd love it if the Stewards could be sterner about it, and if corner workers called in more incidents. Recently, at Lime Rock, we had a car go off in Big bend. EV came out, so we had a standing yellow at that corner, and later at Start/Finish. I was racing hard with a guy who has pushed me aside before, and is up on me in hp., and I'd been defending the inside of that corner. Because I knew we'd see a standing yellow for several laps there, as EV pulled the car, I took my normal line, and braked a bit early, as a mistake under braking would result in me sliding into the workers...(a tangent thing). My follower ignored that risk, and dove inside to make the pass for 3rd. IT DIDN'T GET CALLED IN. Then, on the very next lap, he DID IT AGAIN to the guy in second! I chuckled. "See ya at the bottom of the results, pass under yellow boy!", I thought.
IT DIDN'T GET CALLED IN EITHER!
It was So blatant, I assumed it would be. So I'M guilty too, of not running over after the race and making a stink.
Results didn't indicate it, and the guy who got passed for 2nd had even gone to the Stewards about it. Good for HIM.
I did too, but later. The Chief Steward was fair, and pointed out that he had no "proof" that it had happened. No video in my car, and inconclusive in his eyes in the other guys car. He stated that the pass could have been completed by the time we crossed the perpendicular line at the flag station. I responded, "Maybe so, but by the hair on your chin, and if I had pressed the issue, he would have been guilty, as he wouldn't have been able to complete the pas by then, but because I was concerned for the workers safety, he gets away with it?" He also said that he interviewed the offending driver, and asked if he saw the flag at start finish? "What flag". That's right, he missed that one, and pushed his luck on the other!
Result?
"I gave him a stern talking to".
I respect the CS, and his actions in this case, assuming he was bound by the GCR and protocol to do what he did.
But, that crap sure shouldn't fly.
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gran racing
Super Moderator
Even when prepared to throw paper (i.e. Travis incident a while back), the stewards did everything possible to deter me from doing that. It needs to be a change among drivers and workers.
StephenB
New member
I am on my phone typing so this will be short ... my first thought would be impound ALL at every race. It doesn't create any hardship on volunteers ( that I can think of) and it creates an environment where you have to look at each other face to face and it gives others the opportunity to talk if they wish. At my last race I don't even know what a few of the drivers even looked like that were in my class! Shame on me for never going to meet them but in reality this probably happens all the time.
Stephen
Stephen
John Nesbitt
New member
This, unfortunately, is true of some stewards. If you have made up your mind to protest, do not let yourself be deflected. Tell the Chief Steward (politely) that you are firm on protesting. If the Chairman of the SOM tries to dissuade you, insist that the protest be heard.
I mentioned this in an earlier post, but it bears repeating. If the Chief Steward tries to persuade you not to protest, saying that s/he will "take care" of it, remember that, by not protesting, you lose your standing in the affair. You will have no recourse if the Chief Steward's (in)action doesn't satisfy you. Only by filing a protest do you become a party to the case.
StephF
New member
If you should ever be in a situation where a steward tries to tell you they aren't going to even listen to whatever you are coming to protest about, or they try to refuse to accept a protest from you, then be aware that you have the right to protest them as well.
That happened to me and I didn't know that I could have (and probably should have) protested the official in question.
That being said, I also would not make a habit out of filing frivolous protests either.
That happened to me and I didn't know that I could have (and probably should have) protested the official in question.
That being said, I also would not make a habit out of filing frivolous protests either.
John Nesbitt
New member
This is kind of a detour from the subject of the thread, but it may be useful information for drivers.
1. If you file a protest, you submit it (with the protest fee) to the Chief Steward (or an Asst Chief Steward). The only function of the Chief Steward in the protest process is to receive the protest and transmit it to the SOM. Period. End of Story. The Chief Steward has nothing to say about the timeliness or validity of the protest.
If your protest is filed in a timely manner, or you can demonstrate that you could not file within the time limit because of circumstances beyond your control, the SOM is required to hear (not necessarily uphold) your protest. If you disagree with their judgment, you have the right to appeal that judgment.
2. If you have a problem with any official at an event, speak to the Chief Steward, who supervises all officials except the SOM. If you are not satisified with the Chief Steward's response (or your problem is with the Chief Steward), contact the Executive Steward for the Division.
My sense is that the leadership of the stewards program wants to resolve problems, but they can do that only if they are aware of the problems.
As someone who got started as a flagger, I would disagree. We're should be looking for and calling in incidents.
Keep rich guys who pay someone to prep their car out?
I don't think so. There seems to be a lack of sportsmanship and awareness.
Yes. I would say that the classroom debriefs are of little value except when someone has done something stupid and the incident is being debriefed. Listing the car numbers that hit the apex or missed the apex is useless and sometimes the same car # is on both lists for the same corner.
Same goes for the Friday night classroom session. GCR test is meaningless and useless.
I think it would be far more beneficial to discuss racing etiquette. Things like -- you are running 6th in class and between the class leaders of the next slower class. 5th place is not in striking distance. It might be if you can get past the 1st place car, but then you still have to hunt him down and make the pass. The race is at half-distance.
What do you do? Well, what I did was get out of the way and let them have their race because I didn't have a race..
Show in-car and spectator videos of people doing stupid things. Explain why it is stupid. Tell them what the drivers did wrong. Tell them what the driver did right.
For example, there's a video (youtube?) from one of the 12 Hours at the Point that really demonstrates why you lock down your car. An SM spins coming out of 10, doesn't lock it down and takes out a second car.
Which is more effective? Telling people to lock it down or showing them what happens when you don't?
Nope.
Yep.
