Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Well the class is still very new. Changes have come every year so far in an effort to achieve parity have they not?
What is a "touring car?"
- Thread starter Knestis
- Start date
dickita15
New member
well now that is the real conversation is it not. in order to be inclusive and not drive away real touring car should there be an adder for cars that are not sedans?
Flyinglizard
New member
Take out 4% for any real TC until the full builds run pretty even.
We're nowhere near "the end." The S2000 (for example) is only a non-issue at this point because nobody has done one yet. Hamstring the fast Miatas while leaving other cars with the same advantages alone - a typical reactive competition adjustment approach - and the problem moves somewhere else. Why have a car as different in fundamental design as the NSX (not my example; remember Mr Drago came up with the idea of building one) even in the wings?
How about we put FIA GT3 cars in STU and equalize each individually with weight as it becomes a "problem?"
K
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
There is.
RWD with strut front add 3.5% to their baseline weight
RWD all other add 5.5% to their baseline weight
FWD strut -2.5% from their baseline weight
Your contention is that the ONLY factor that matters, among the difference between this...
...and this...
...is the pair of wheels that are doing the driving...?
K
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
No, certainly not. I was pointing out to DP that there is some balancing going on.
The problem is that there are RWD 'sedans' and FWD 'sports cars' by almost any definition. Interior volume is a slippery slope. Amount of seats is a slippery slope. If you had to write down the parameters right now, I am sure I could find cars that don't work on both sides of the fence (meaning 'I did mean to exclude that and it's not' and 'I didn't mean to exclude that and it is')
The problem is that there are RWD 'sedans' and FWD 'sports cars' by almost any definition. Interior volume is a slippery slope. Amount of seats is a slippery slope. If you had to write down the parameters right now, I am sure I could find cars that don't work on both sides of the fence (meaning 'I did mean to exclude that and it's not' and 'I didn't mean to exclude that and it is')
So what's your recommendation? "Nothing" means the retarded kids go find someplace else to play instead of in YAMC. - GA
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
No. I am asking for a better solution than 'ban the sports cars' in a power-to-weight class.
More weight% difference?
Wheel width allowances?
I don't know but I'm not going to do the homework here. Throw out some real suggestions and lets slice 'em and dice 'em.
There is actually more at play here than just chassis. Isn't there some concern that the K20 can make more power than intended? So you throw one of those into a Civic and it can run with a Miata so now we have to limit both. Throw one of those into an S2000 and you have a double-edged sword.
I still think the class is to young to make a drastic change. Keep tweaking.
More weight% difference?
Wheel width allowances?
I don't know but I'm not going to do the homework here. Throw out some real suggestions and lets slice 'em and dice 'em.
There is actually more at play here than just chassis. Isn't there some concern that the K20 can make more power than intended? So you throw one of those into a Civic and it can run with a Miata so now we have to limit both. Throw one of those into an S2000 and you have a double-edged sword.
I still think the class is to young to make a drastic change. Keep tweaking.
Sitting there throwing stones becomes quite tiring, quite quickly.
And again, Andy: "sports cars" will not be banned from Super Touring. Put that stone down.
Irrelevant. Engines and chassis are considered separately in Super Touring, which is exactly why I've been saying - for how many years now? - that the direct useful comparisons are a Honda Integra with a K20 installed versus a Honda S2000 with the same K20 installed. Or a Mazda Protege with the MZR installed versus a Mazda Miata with the MZR installed.
Which are you going to choose, and at what weight/adjustments? The point where either is a viable choice is where we need to be. We are far from that point right now.
Apples versus apples, si?
Which is exactly why the CRB tossed a flat plate restrictor on that engine after the 2013 Runoffs. Pay attention, brother.
What I'm hearing from you is "don't take away our Miatas' advantages, bro!!"
GA
it's not just a ban this, ban that, add weight problem. it is that, but there's so much more.
it's a combination of development curve and emotional problem. Small, RWD sportscars, epitomized by miatae, are better than generally more compromised trunk and 4 seat touring cars. fact. but a fact that CAN be dealt with. miatas will always (or have always, since about 5 years into the existence of SM) be ahead of the curve because of the massive numbers and existing development of the car and the drivers of them, so coaching, parts, setups, etc.. are all well vetted and avaialable. that means that without fail, miatas show up quickly, and some of them show up up front.
the other fact, though harder to provide objective evidence for, is that people are sick to death of getting beaten by miatas. true or not, the perceived advantages, success rate, and "miataness" irks people who want to run competitively with similar cars to their own and FEEL, true or not, that they CANNOT compete with a miata in [insert favorite FWD/TC/larger 2 or 3 box car here]. just because SOME examples of other chassis/engines have been identified as overdogs DOESN'T change that feeling. and frankly, $ to $ and hour per hour, the development IN miatas means Joe Average CAN get a faster miata for less effort and money than he can get an equally fast [whatever]. this puts the burden on the not miata guys to A: work harder than the other guys, B: buy a miata, C: just suck it up and go for best of the rest, or D: park it, find another hobby. a lot of people don't want to or have time/resources enough for A, and B might be unnatractive or no longer financially viable leading to C and, often, D.
if you have a civic, IS300, VW, or Focus (or hell, even an S2000, 240SX, or other good sportscar) and are thinking about running in STL - you have to look at the class and start figuring out how to beat miatas and the difficulty of that is going to stop some builds before they start. it will inspire some people, too - but I bet there's a smaller number of those.
a large part of the reason we spend the money to do this is the emotional connection to the car, and that comes with a lot of baggage notions. Just as the bomber IT guys were driven out by the pro-build IT guys, the miatas run the risk of driving the touring car guys out of STL (or preventing them from coming to play in the first place) as they unbalance the class as perceived. this isn't all about how to make it work on a spreadsheet, even if that spreadsheet is based on real-world facts. the single fact to consider is the happiness of the "customer" because the happy customer comes back and comes back more often. some people don't pick a class, pick the car, and go out to win. many people want to race their favorite car, and they want to feel like they COULD win, even if they do not. they are sick of seeing miatas, sharing tracks with maiata, HEARING the miatas.
I know I'm not offering a solution, but seriously, some of you vulcans seriously miss the point. this is a place where people throw away money that would be better spent in college and retirement savings, philanthropy, whatever. as soon as the experience is "not fun" enough that someone thinks about that vs. WANTING to spend the money to come out and play, they'll stop. since everyone seems to like metaphors here: the carrot has to appear in reach, and it has to look fresh and tasty, too.
it's a combination of development curve and emotional problem. Small, RWD sportscars, epitomized by miatae, are better than generally more compromised trunk and 4 seat touring cars. fact. but a fact that CAN be dealt with. miatas will always (or have always, since about 5 years into the existence of SM) be ahead of the curve because of the massive numbers and existing development of the car and the drivers of them, so coaching, parts, setups, etc.. are all well vetted and avaialable. that means that without fail, miatas show up quickly, and some of them show up up front.
the other fact, though harder to provide objective evidence for, is that people are sick to death of getting beaten by miatas. true or not, the perceived advantages, success rate, and "miataness" irks people who want to run competitively with similar cars to their own and FEEL, true or not, that they CANNOT compete with a miata in [insert favorite FWD/TC/larger 2 or 3 box car here]. just because SOME examples of other chassis/engines have been identified as overdogs DOESN'T change that feeling. and frankly, $ to $ and hour per hour, the development IN miatas means Joe Average CAN get a faster miata for less effort and money than he can get an equally fast [whatever]. this puts the burden on the not miata guys to A: work harder than the other guys, B: buy a miata, C: just suck it up and go for best of the rest, or D: park it, find another hobby. a lot of people don't want to or have time/resources enough for A, and B might be unnatractive or no longer financially viable leading to C and, often, D.
if you have a civic, IS300, VW, or Focus (or hell, even an S2000, 240SX, or other good sportscar) and are thinking about running in STL - you have to look at the class and start figuring out how to beat miatas and the difficulty of that is going to stop some builds before they start. it will inspire some people, too - but I bet there's a smaller number of those.
a large part of the reason we spend the money to do this is the emotional connection to the car, and that comes with a lot of baggage notions. Just as the bomber IT guys were driven out by the pro-build IT guys, the miatas run the risk of driving the touring car guys out of STL (or preventing them from coming to play in the first place) as they unbalance the class as perceived. this isn't all about how to make it work on a spreadsheet, even if that spreadsheet is based on real-world facts. the single fact to consider is the happiness of the "customer" because the happy customer comes back and comes back more often. some people don't pick a class, pick the car, and go out to win. many people want to race their favorite car, and they want to feel like they COULD win, even if they do not. they are sick of seeing miatas, sharing tracks with maiata, HEARING the miatas.
I know I'm not offering a solution, but seriously, some of you vulcans seriously miss the point. this is a place where people throw away money that would be better spent in college and retirement savings, philanthropy, whatever. as soon as the experience is "not fun" enough that someone thinks about that vs. WANTING to spend the money to come out and play, they'll stop. since everyone seems to like metaphors here: the carrot has to appear in reach, and it has to look fresh and tasty, too.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
If that is what you are hearing, then you aren't listening. The premise here, in the original post, is to take 'sports cars' away because no matter what you do, you will never make them 'equal' to touring cars.
What I am asking for are suggestions, by those who have already thrown in the proverbial towel, on what additional parity moves can be made instead of wholesale exclusion. Yes, I know you have said it won't happen, but that is the concept and the letter we are discussing.
We are far from 'that' point right now? Really? What data are we using to determine that? What examples of FWD TCs and RWD SCs are we citing with the same engine that you are basing your statement on? I haven't seen any. And if it's totally in the abstract, it sure as shit is something that should have been ironed out in the conceptual stages of the class not 3-4 years in.
If the K20 is limited already then its even more of a reason to say that that motor in a nice FWD chassis can run with a top Miata.
So to your apples to apples question. How far apart are we and what data are you using to determine we are?
What I am asking for are suggestions, by those who have already thrown in the proverbial towel, on what additional parity moves can be made instead of wholesale exclusion. Yes, I know you have said it won't happen, but that is the concept and the letter we are discussing.
We are far from 'that' point right now? Really? What data are we using to determine that? What examples of FWD TCs and RWD SCs are we citing with the same engine that you are basing your statement on? I haven't seen any. And if it's totally in the abstract, it sure as shit is something that should have been ironed out in the conceptual stages of the class not 3-4 years in.
If the K20 is limited already then its even more of a reason to say that that motor in a nice FWD chassis can run with a top Miata.
So to your apples to apples question. How far apart are we and what data are you using to determine we are?
"Data"...you make me chuckle all the time, Andy...ok, as always you're right: we have no "data", therefore we have no proof of a problem. Therefore, we have nothing to support what we see as an apparent and looming issues, so therefore we are wrong. There's no data, so a problem does not exist. We all envision seeing many, many more non-sports cars coming into Super Touring Light in droves, many more build threads, to the point where we can expect at least 50% "non-sports cars" numbers within the next competition year or two, at which point we can declare "parity". All is well.
I'm glad someone finally brought that to my attention. I truly feel much better now.
GA
Edit: just to be clear, "data" does not include going to the track, watching racing, speaking to competitors, having a vision for the future of the category, all while observing trends and directions -- unless of course that vision is accompanied by at least one supporting spreadsheet with numbers and shit on it...
I'm glad someone finally brought that to my attention. I truly feel much better now.
GA
Edit: just to be clear, "data" does not include going to the track, watching racing, speaking to competitors, having a vision for the future of the category, all while observing trends and directions -- unless of course that vision is accompanied by at least one supporting spreadsheet with numbers and shit on it...
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Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
And we have talked about this too. We know perception can swing the pendulum. But I refuse to allow that swing to happen based on top level SM's beating up on low level STL cars. It's short sighted and those people who bitch about SM's in STL need a reality check. They should NOT be faster than you. Use them as a bogey for development. Once you pass them, then get another target.
If we are talking about REAL STL Miata, then I continue to ask where the data is that shows this dominance. As you said, the Miata effect (TME) can bring top drivers in top cars to the surface quickly and it can affect perception...but it shouldn't to the people in the know. Drago has a top car and it's driven extremely well. He was run with, and out-qualified by on a power & handling track, a FWD Honda with restrictions. This does not address our 'apples to apples' issue in my post above, but to say that currently the Miata's can't be beaten is silly.
Maybe the pendulum has to swing so far the other way that the numbers look stooopid good for FWD. Then you get them built, and adjust the other way for parity?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
When you state something as fact, it would be nice to hear why you think it and what a better idea would be...but if you shout it enough times you will certainly get some to believe you.
I don't believe or disbelieve. I just want to see some justification as to why you think the way you do. Simple.
Edit: What I want to do is discuss solutions to problems I can sink my teeth into. I am all for parity. Show us where there is a problem and what ideas we have to fix them. I don't see issue with this concept.
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Sorry Andy, no offense intended (really!), I'm done Internet-arguing with you. Feel free to continue to bitch and toss stones - this is, after all, the Internet - but you can't get a full understanding of what's going on by reading results on My Laps...come spend some time with us - time away from the Miata bubble - and we can walk through the whole situation, talk to other people, see how things fit together, and get a much bigger understanding and vision.
GA
GA
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
...or by talking with people in the race, getting their opinions, etc.
Still not good enough. Fine.
We can resume the debate when we actually have something to debate. Remember, it's not my topic and not my stones. It's concepts brought up in the OP and also by you that we are far from parity right now. (edit to specify that I realize these are two separate subjects. SC vs TC and weight diff between FWD and RWD)
Let's lay out the issues, the causes, the supporting facts, and then the solutions.
Still not good enough. Fine.
We can resume the debate when we actually have something to debate. Remember, it's not my topic and not my stones. It's concepts brought up in the OP and also by you that we are far from parity right now. (edit to specify that I realize these are two separate subjects. SC vs TC and weight diff between FWD and RWD)
Let's lay out the issues, the causes, the supporting facts, and then the solutions.
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1 - specifically referring to STL miatas, not SMs running in STL, and the huge influence from the knowledge of SM on all miatas in SCCA, from GTL down.
2 - there are more than one problem in STL. the overly generic chassis designations for weighting purposes (i.e. the late civics are good FWD strut cars effectively running light) and flattening of the power curve as the displacement approaches the 2.0L limit are OTHER problems. don't confuse "really fast civic" with "miata problem", and I promise you the perception of really fast civic is less troublesome to many than miata.
anyhow, I have a job to do...