Wheel diameter rule change Poll

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Ok George, please provide data to support this claim.

Which do you want me to support Bill? The only 14x7 wheels available (not including custom-made) are Panasports. I can't prove that beyond telling you to prove me wrong. They just aren't out there.

OK, 13x7 are available from Compomotive. In fact, they have just come out with a new wheel in that size. Panasports I believe are available as well in that size.

Revolution has plenty of 13x7 in Race, Sport, and Rally wheels.

How is that for starters? Didn't take any time at all to come up with them. I'm confident there are others because I remember seeing them, but can't remember the brands because I was not looking for 13x7.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
I have 14X6 wheels with a 4X108 bolt pattern and a 45mm offset. Try to find this wheel other than OEM Audi. Plenty of 15's avail as other cars used the 4X108 pattern but only with 15's
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...One can't say that they aren't available or too expensive.</font>

A specious argument, at best.

One cannot hold up a 17-pound steel wheel as a reasonable argument for availability and expect intelligent persons to agree. If one does so, then it's only reasonable that a car forcd to run those wheels due to lack of any alternatives be given a 200# weight break...after all, an extra 20 or so pounds of unsprung rotational interia is EASILY worth 200 pounds static sprung weight...

(...obviously, another specious argument, in response to such an equally intellectually bankrupt example...)
 
Originally posted by Banzai240:
Seriously, As can be read from my quote above, I offered to compile any data that you out there might have to supply in reference to this subject... I've received ZERO so far...

Originally posted by Jake:
Well, I've done much of this homework - as I'm currently looking for 14x7's for my MR2. Here's the scoop for 14x7, 4x100 (Honda, Toyota, Mazda, etc) availability:

TSW Stealth: Discontinued 99-00 or so

Borbet Type T: Discontinued in 01

Revolution RFX: Discontinued 02-03

Panasport: Still available, $190+, however they will not fit my car (caliper interference)according to Panasport.

Circle Racing: May be possible to have
custom made in excess of $220+

Kodiak: May be able to have custom made. Very expensive.
 
Originally posted by Joe Craven:
13", 14", 15", 16", ... etc.

wheels available, cheap, and to your bolt pattern and offset. One can't say that they aren't available or too expensive.

http://www.diamondracingwheels.com/RoadRaceSeries.htm

[This message has been edited by Joe Craven (edited January 08, 2004).]

Smallest 14" is 14x7 - not legal for ITA.
Smallest 15" is 15x8 - not legal for IT-anything.

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Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR
 
Diamond Racing = Custom made steel wheels. Not hubcentric, need special lugnuts, very heavy, etc.

The only non-custom 13x7 or 14x7 wheel in production is the Konig Rewind which offers a 14x7 that will mate up to older RWD cars with a 4x114.3 bolt circle.

On the other hand, there are dozens of 15x7 wheels that are available in all popular bolt patterns at around $100/ea.
 
Originally posted by Eagle7:
Smallest 14" is 14x7 - not legal for ITA.


I think you need to look at your GCR again.



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I think you need to look at your GCR again.


BBBBBBBBB I'm sure I meant ITB
smile.gif


Thanks for the "clarification".

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Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR
 
Ah, but since I am headed to ITBBBBBBB, I am way less worried about the wheel issue - personally, anyway. The OE size for a bazillion Golfs is 14x6.

I still think that the rule is dum and, even being the biggest anti-creep proponent in the club, I have a hard time believing that we should stick to this archaic way of thinking.

K
 
What gets me a little bit is that people will send a letter to the CRB explaining how there are so few and very expensive 14x7 wheels available and showing examples of the lack of availability and comparing this to 15x7's, but the CRB can simply reply something like "there are adequate supplies...".

I mean, show us the proof! How come WE have to provide data to try to prove our point, but all we get back from "Mount Olympus" is "you are wrong" and nothing else to back that claim?

Same thing with most responses from the CRB. "Car is competitive as classified", "Weight is correct as classified", "There are sufficient parts available"...

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Ony
 
Originally posted by oanglade:
How come WE have to provide data to try to prove our point, but all we get back from "Mount Olympus" is "you are wrong" and nothing else to back that claim?

You can't be serious??? This isn't that hard to figure out... First, do you have ANY idea how many letters the CRB gets every month? Do you think they work solely for the IT group??? There are what, 7 CRB members, having to deal with at LEAST 10 or more IT letters every month alone. Add to that all the GT, Touring, SS, Formula, SM, etc., etc., and their first responsibility, which is to establish "rules and standards for the scheduling, organization, and conduct of SCCA-sanctioned Club Racing events, and the licensing of drivers and officials." They have a few things on their plate. How many of these issues are that cut and dried? Just browse through recent threads on this board... Is ANYTHING here cut and dried?
eek.gif


That's why I feel it's up to the competitors to supply as much information as they can to support their cases. If you feel you know so much, PROVE IT!
wink.gif
As the letter gets further away from your mailbox, the intimacy with the subject at hand likely goes down, so if you have information pertinent to the discussion, then you must provide it and not blindly assume that others are going to see everything that you see.

Now, that being said, I also believe it's important for all sides of an issue to be considered, which is where I think the ACs come into play. When a request is received, the ACs should validate the information provided, and then take it upon themselves to research further to cover all sides, then provide an informed recommendation to the CRB. The CRB should then be able to consider the recommendation and make a ruling.


You can't possibly expect that, with the depth of many of these issues, all this is going to take place with any kind of efficiency if the CRB needs to spend time on each issue gathering all the data and spending time researching from scratch?

While you are trying to find wheels for your particular car, it wouldn't take much effort to put together a quick spreadsheet or list of this information in order to provide it to those asked to consider it. You can't possibly expect those on the boards and committees to know all this information about EVERY car out there, so it's up to you to support your request. Don't you use this same information to help you make the decision on which wheels to buy? Write it down and take some responsibility for your fate...

It's easy to make assumptions when there isn't any data in front of you to the contrary... Provide the data to prove your case, and then, if the decision goes the other way, you'll truely have something to complain about, as well as the data to back your complaint as well...




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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
So, to summarize, Ony:

Despite the fact that a competitor may spend an inordinate (and incredibly sufficient) amount of time and effort to research and produce supporting evidence and documentation for their position and/or request, the SCCA Competition Board is far too busy with other things on their plate that they have absolutely no need (or responsibility) to support their rejection of said request. On top of that, Ony, it is incredibly ignorant and rude of you to expect otherwise.

Thomas Gray was right: ignorance *is* bliss.


[This message has been edited by grega (edited January 09, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by grega:
to support their rejection of said request.

I wonder sometimes why I even try...

Do you have ANY idea how much it would cost in printing of Fastrack each month to make a fully detailed response to EVERY issue responded to?? Me either, but I can reason that it would be a LOT more than they are paying now. If you want a detailed response, you do have the option of actually CALLING or otherwise contacting your board members to find out... Their numbers aren't a big secret... Following up would be a reasonable response to such matters...

As for the insinuations about my response to Ony, some of you need to realize that this form of communication can't possibly convey the emotion that you proclaim it to... Even with the help of emoticons and Smiles... some are always going to assume the worst intents. That's fine... the rest of us will just have to learn to deal with it.

The point is that, without data to refute past opinions and assumptions, the past is going to win out in most cases. I'm not saying that's right, but rather that's the way things seem to be, regardless of how any of us feel about it.

You can bitch about it, or you can go do something about it... Either way, the onus is on YOU.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> On top of that, Ony, it is incredibly ignorant and rude of you to expect otherwise.</font>

No, just naive to make the assumption that someone else is going to do the work for you... Sometimes they will , but why take the chance... I think the sheer volume of the task the CRB has makes a complete investigation of each issue impossible. That's just reality. Sorry, I know that sucks, because it would be nice to just send a quick sentance in making a request and have all the details worked out by someone else, but that's just not the way it works... Without data, all we have are opinions, and those are sometimes tough to change. Without data, all your letter is is an opinion...

I think it would be much better to make a clear statement instead...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
Originally posted by Banzai240:
I wonder sometimes why I even try...

Do you have ANY idea how much it would cost in printing of Fastrack each month to make a fully detailed response to EVERY issue responded to?? Me either, but I can reason that it would be a LOT more than they are paying now. If you want a detailed response, you do have the option of actually CALLING or otherwise contacting your board members to find out... Their numbers aren't a big secret... Following up would be a reasonable response to such matters...



You've got to be kidding Darin??? I've called in the past, looking for explanations as to how decisions were arrived at. Got nothing!!! And, I think, at the very least, if someone takes the time to do the research and write the letter, they deserve a detailed response if their request is rejected. Doesn't necessarily have to be published in FasTrack, but it should be sent to the requestor. And, I am not so sure that the publishing costs would go up as much as you'd like us to believe.
No, just naive to make the assumption that someone else is going to do the work for you... Sometimes they will , but why take the chance... I think the sheer volume of the task the CRB has makes a complete investigation of each issue impossible. That's just reality. Sorry, I know that sucks, because it would be nice to just send a quick sentance in making a request and have all the details worked out by someone else, but that's just not the way it works... Without data, all we have are opinions, and those are sometimes tough to change. Without data, all your letter is is an opinion...

I think it would be much better to make a clear statement instead...

You totally missed the point on this one! I think what Greg was talking about was that an expectation of a response in kind is arrogant.



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
You totally missed the point on this one! I think what Greg was talking about was that an expectation of a response in kind is arrogant.

Wouldn't be the first time... Good to see things getting back on line...
wink.gif




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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
But Darins point is more than valid.

Just a wild ass guess here, but what if the CRB actually got not just one or two well thought out well researched and well presented letters, but say, a dozen? Is it possible they might say, "Hmmmmm lots of folks have done some leg work, and they ALL came to the same apparently reasonable conclusion. Maybe this IS something we should consider more seriously. Lets get the ITACs thoughts on this...."

The point of my original post is that while we all seem to be saying what idiots they are for not seeing the forest for the trees, not many of us have actually put our money where our mouths are, stepped up to the plate, and actually contributed in an official way.

I think that we, as racers, seem to forget that we need to "pitch in" to help with the workload. Presenting a well prepared case for something we want seems to be a good way to do out part....

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Guys - before this gets totally OT....

Darin, I supplied a list of all available 14x7 wheels I was able to find. I included wheels that are available and that were available. PLEASE tell me what other information that would be helpful that I can provide. I agree that we should be the ones gathering this info (since we are calling for a change), but I'm not sure what other info may be helpful. If you want me to put it in an Excel file or other format, just say the word.

Respectfully,
Jake
 
Speaking only for myself, I know for a fact that 14x7 wheels for my car (Neon, 5x100 bolt pattern) are only available if custom ordered; 15x7 are easy to find and a lot cheaper. I would LOVE to see a dia rule change.

My question to Darrin/Geo (or any other CB/ITAC individual) is: Would I be better served addressing the ITAC with this, the Comp Board, or both? Does it even matter who I send my request to?

Thanks,


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#59 SSC Neon
Yes, I know it's not an IT car... yet... :)
 
Originally posted by Jake:
Guys - before this gets totally OT....

Darin, I supplied a list of all available 14x7 wheels I was able to find. I included wheels that are available and that were available. PLEASE tell me what other information that would be helpful that I can provide. I agree that we should be the ones gathering this info (since we are calling for a change), but I'm not sure what other info may be helpful. If you want me to put it in an Excel file or other format, just say the word.

Respectfully,
Jake

Jake, just for the record, I've confirmed your findings very clearly. However, for right or for wrong, sometimes it takes hearing it from several sources to really believe something may be a problem. This is human nature and we're dealing with humans.

I think the point is that more people need to write. Unless you have tried to source 14x7 wheels or know someone who has, I can see where some folks might not realize how big a problem this is.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
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