lateapex911
Super Moderator
Ditto here...
A couple little edits...
In the end, I guess it's an agree to disagree issue...
Wheels, wheels, and more wheels
- Thread starter gran racing
- Start date
Ditto here...
A couple little edits...
In the end, I guess it's an agree to disagree issue...
ScotMac
New member
I repeat the arguments Kirk because they are valid points that you have failed to counter.
It is humorous to me that 5deg difference in sidewall angle is classified as a large performance issue, whereas 10lbs per corner less rotating weight and unsprung weight is no change in performance. Good one.
(Note, the 10lbs is Kirk's numbers)
Yes, the low-budget racer being able to get a much larger supply of lightweight racing wheels, to compete w/ the $400+ big budget 8lb racing wheels is a monetary help/equalizer.
Yes, we have found one inexpensive lightweight wheel in 4x100 bolt pattern. That is not enough supply, even for 4x100, let alone the lack of supply for the rest of the bolt patterns.
Gary L
New member
Scot, you win the "Twist & Shout" award this week.
No one said there was a "large perfomance issue" when comparing 6" vs 7" wheels. And no one said there was "...no change in performance" when going to lighter wheels. They are both incremental performance enhancements; neither of them is going to make your Fiero 2 or 3 seconds a lap faster.Incidentally, wheels may be the least of your rolling issues anyway... have you talked to Alan Hamilton (raced an ITA Fiero in SFR until a year or two back) about front hubs? The last I knew, he had not found an IT legal replacement hub & bearing assembly that would last more than a few laps... literally! These were unique to the '88 Fiero, they fit nothing else in the world. The OEM pieces (no longer available from GM) do okay, but they do eventually fail under race conditions. The situation may have changed, but a year or two ago, the only replacement hubs available (from eBearing, I think?) were not worth the time it took to install them, never mind the purchase price, at least from a racing standpoint.
ScotMac
New member
Alan must have *REALLY* had problems w/ the hubs. You are the 3rd (or 4th) person that has warned me about them, because of Alan's complaints.
I have yet to have a problem w/ them (where is some wood!!!). My car has been raced a 12 hour enduro, and a 4 hour enduro, and a little over one full season.
I have also found the hubs at Napa, autopartswarehouse, fierostore, and (surpisingly) gm parts direct. The autopartswarehouse one is made by "NTP" and fierostore says theirs is made by "auto parts international" (whoever that is). So, if i do have to replace the front hubs, i *hope* one of those will work for me.
I have yet to have a problem w/ them (where is some wood!!!). My car has been raced a 12 hour enduro, and a 4 hour enduro, and a little over one full season.
I have also found the hubs at Napa, autopartswarehouse, fierostore, and (surpisingly) gm parts direct. The autopartswarehouse one is made by "NTP" and fierostore says theirs is made by "auto parts international" (whoever that is). So, if i do have to replace the front hubs, i *hope* one of those will work for me.
ScotMac
New member
Scot, you win the "Twist & Shout" award this week.
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It was said that the sidewall issue going from 6" to 7" inch was significant enough to cause possible reclassing issues, but going to 10lb less weight wheels was not a "great hunk faster". ie, the sidewall performance issue was constantly puffed up, and now the weight issue is being minimized. What will be done to protect that stash of 6" wheels?
vr6guy
New member
After thinkin about this debate for a while and seeing good points on both sides, it finally dawned on me. There should be an allowance of a 7" wheel in IT. For the simple fact that it is a class that is based on giving people a chance to race, and not promising to be competitive. This is supposed to be entry level racing, so all of you who take it way to seriously should remember that fact. Also, for the people that have spent "thousands" of dollars developing their cars for these rim size rules are completely going against the philosiphy of the intent of the class. I know peole are going to go crazy over this, but I cannot be suaded of my beliefs!
Marc Rider
NER ITB GTI
Marc Rider
NER ITB GTI
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Sorry Marc, but you might have a point if were were talking about entry level HPDE days...or lapping . Or participating as opposed to watching.
But we're not.....we're racers, and we race. To win. To do better than the other guy. Ergo, to seek a competitive advantage.
Philosophies, in racing, are nearly impossible to enforce when it comes to expenditures. (A claiing rule can work but it's very difficult to administer in a multi marque category such as this, and if it were to be done, it needs to be done at the outset)
You simply can not lay fault on people for following the rules to the extent of their abilities...and in racing, those abilities include more than the abilty to drive..they include the ability to find funding. Many racers improve their competitive package by getting better funding, either by working longer, harder or smarter, or by raising funds and services through sponsorship. It's the nature of this sport.
The rule book wouldn't exist if it was just about the philosophy....
vr6guy
New member
well the class was started to give people a chance and reason to race..... Yeah , i get it you know the word racing, and race. Unlike you I dont want funding, and frankly dont need it. You want more competitors, and want to appeal to the "younger" crowd? Someone who wants to get started who is constricted by a silly rule about 1" for a width of a wheel is probably going to go elsewhere. This is my call for everyone to think outside of the box. The intent of the class is far different from the rules. Who exactly thought of the rule for Improved touring competitors to be able to change rim sizes? Did they take any consideration of the width, availability, performance advantages, disadvantages? My guess is not
By the way, I work hard,(scars to prove it) I work long, and I do indeed work smart. Who cares if someone you may lap in a race has a wheel thats 1" wider than yours? Is it really going to make a difference in the bigger picture?
lighten up
By the way, I work hard,(scars to prove it) I work long, and I do indeed work smart. Who cares if someone you may lap in a race has a wheel thats 1" wider than yours? Is it really going to make a difference in the bigger picture?
lighten up
vr6guy
New member
again, Ill gladly take a weight penalty for takin the big, bad, performance enhancing 7" rims. I would gladly settle for 15x6.5! Lets keep improved touring in a progressive direction. this "business" oops i mean "club" would benefit from it!! scca soon to be if not already scBa
my 2 cents......
hmm, what would matt weisberg have to say about this?!
lets just have fun
my 2 cents......
hmm, what would matt weisberg have to say about this?!
lets just have fun
dickita15
New member
Look l am all about letting people do what they want whenever possible, you know personal choice and personal responsibility. But there are a number of reasons why IT is the most successful category in SCCA and one of the big one is we have rules integrity that promoted good fair racing. In order to protect and preserve this, the rules must be protected.
When will B and or C get 7” wheels: only when the vast majority of the current B and C racers say they need it to keep racing. In the meantime they have the right to believe that rules will remain stable.
When will B and or C get 7” wheels: only when the vast majority of the current B and C racers say they need it to keep racing. In the meantime they have the right to believe that rules will remain stable.
Gary L
New member
The way for new racers to get involved easier and cheaper, is to concentrate on many, many things that far outstrip the need for 8, or 11, or even 14 lb wheels, in any width. Here's my advice... just run those gawd awful 17 pound, 6 inch wheels for a year or two, and see if you end up within 3 or 4 seconds of a lap record somewhere. If you can, then start worrying about serious suspension development, a professionally built engine, dyno time for ECU tweaking, etc. Then yes... maybe after all of the above, some lighter wheels.
You keep trying to convince us that the availability of cheap lightweight wheels is a big hurdle for getting started in Improved Touring. Sorry, but it's not. Some day, you're going to realize it wasn't even in the top 10.
JLawton
New member
Trust me, EVERYONE would love to do this cheaper. But you also have to have rules that make sense.
This forum isn't associated with the SCCA.
Wouldn't it be cheapest and easiest to run stock wheels?? Did your GTi come with stock 7" wheels? If it's an A1, you can get stock wheels for almost FREE!!. So I guess I'm a little confused on where you're coming from?
Let me throw another question at you. The A1 front bearings are known weak point and should be changed multiple times a season for safety. Although not a bank breaker, it's still some coin. If Audi bearings were used with a little modification of the knuckle, they would rarely go bad and would save some money. So, do you think that should be allowed?
My point is it starts to open a can of worms. We can't make the rules based on cost. A new guy looking to race isn't going to make his dcision about IT based on the fact that 7" wheels are legal. It's still cheap to find a stock car (and wheels), put safety gear in it and race!
This forum isn't associated with the SCCA.
Wouldn't it be cheapest and easiest to run stock wheels?? Did your GTi come with stock 7" wheels? If it's an A1, you can get stock wheels for almost FREE!!. So I guess I'm a little confused on where you're coming from?
Let me throw another question at you. The A1 front bearings are known weak point and should be changed multiple times a season for safety. Although not a bank breaker, it's still some coin. If Audi bearings were used with a little modification of the knuckle, they would rarely go bad and would save some money. So, do you think that should be allowed?
My point is it starts to open a can of worms. We can't make the rules based on cost. A new guy looking to race isn't going to make his dcision about IT based on the fact that 7" wheels are legal. It's still cheap to find a stock car (and wheels), put safety gear in it and race!
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
"Affordable". How do we difine that? It's different for everyone. It's completely relative. Improved Touring is the MOST economical class to enter wheel to wheel racing the SCCA has to offer. How FAR you go is up to you.
The only class I can think of that might be cheaper to run at the pointy end in a competitive region is SM, and that ain't cheap either.
I have a feeling the rule will change when availabilty affects the majority of B&C racers, not one specific bolt pattern. Heck, if you look at it like that, Greg Amy should have petitioned for about 5 'custom' allowances because nothing 'off the shelf' is available for his NX2000.... A stretch? I don't think so.
The only class I can think of that might be cheaper to run at the pointy end in a competitive region is SM, and that ain't cheap either.
I have a feeling the rule will change when availabilty affects the majority of B&C racers, not one specific bolt pattern. Heck, if you look at it like that, Greg Amy should have petitioned for about 5 'custom' allowances because nothing 'off the shelf' is available for his NX2000.... A stretch? I don't think so.
shwah
New member
OI. I am wading back into this to see if I understand the arguments for 7" wheels. If I got these wrong, or missed any let me know.
1. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because cars that get moved from ITA to ITB have 7" wheels already.
counterpoint - we should not change the rules for an entire category of cars because one or two cars are moving down from A.
2. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because I can't get 5x100 15x6 wheels for my car.
counterpoint - there are LOADS of 5x100 15x6 wheels available.
3. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because I can't get 10# or lighter wheels in 5x100 15x6 size for less than $350+ each.
counterpoint - correct, very light racing wheels are expensive.
4. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because they don't represent a performance advantage
counterpoint - well actually they can provide a performance advantage, and since your original goal was cheaper ultralight wheels an additional advantage is gained with lighter wheels.
5. We need to allow 7" wheels becuase I don't see how it will hurt the class.
counterpoint - unless we can see how keeping the rules stable will hurt the class, there is no reason to change the rule.
6. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because potential new drivers won't build cars due to the high cost of sub 10# 5x100 15x6 wheels.
counterpoint - some racers have changed from 'heavy' oem wheels to sub 10# wheels, and it did not transform the car, thus the availability of ultralight wheels is not holding anyone back.
7. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB so more people can buy ultralight wheels, because as noted in the counterpoint to (6) they don't really add that much performance.
counterpoint - or if you choose to use logic, you don't need the ultralight wheels in the first place, thus all the currently available 15x6 wheels will work just fine.
The added weight for 7" wheels concept is interesting. However as someone who has taken the time and effort to build a car that is underweight, and ballast up to race weight, I feel this takes away some of the advantage I gained within the rules I built my car to. Now someone that did not bother to fully prep their car can just throw on larger wheels (and tires) to compensate for the extra weight they are carrying, rather than fully developing a car to run with me.
Say what you like, but this is not about 'protecting' a stock of wheels. It is about protecting the stability of a race class that is not broken. It changes the game for a lot of currently competitive cars. The whole class runs on 13, 14 or 15" wheels. How many 13x7 or 14x7 wheels do you run across? If your whole argument is based on the availability of 15x6 wheels, what do you propose that those running 13 or 14 sizes do when the rule changes? Yes they can run 15x7 if they want (just like you can run a stock VW 15x6 wheel right now), but how is my desire to run a smaller wheel any less important than your desire to use a 9# wheel? What is being asked for does not represent a need of the class, does not represent a barrier to new drivers entering the class, and does not 'do no harm' to those currently racing in the class. When 6" wheels options actually do dry up, I will fully support a wheel rule change, but we are not there yet.
1. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because cars that get moved from ITA to ITB have 7" wheels already.
counterpoint - we should not change the rules for an entire category of cars because one or two cars are moving down from A.
2. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because I can't get 5x100 15x6 wheels for my car.
counterpoint - there are LOADS of 5x100 15x6 wheels available.
3. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because I can't get 10# or lighter wheels in 5x100 15x6 size for less than $350+ each.
counterpoint - correct, very light racing wheels are expensive.
4. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because they don't represent a performance advantage
counterpoint - well actually they can provide a performance advantage, and since your original goal was cheaper ultralight wheels an additional advantage is gained with lighter wheels.
5. We need to allow 7" wheels becuase I don't see how it will hurt the class.
counterpoint - unless we can see how keeping the rules stable will hurt the class, there is no reason to change the rule.
6. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB because potential new drivers won't build cars due to the high cost of sub 10# 5x100 15x6 wheels.
counterpoint - some racers have changed from 'heavy' oem wheels to sub 10# wheels, and it did not transform the car, thus the availability of ultralight wheels is not holding anyone back.
7. We need to allow 7" wheels in ITB so more people can buy ultralight wheels, because as noted in the counterpoint to (6) they don't really add that much performance.
counterpoint - or if you choose to use logic, you don't need the ultralight wheels in the first place, thus all the currently available 15x6 wheels will work just fine.
The added weight for 7" wheels concept is interesting. However as someone who has taken the time and effort to build a car that is underweight, and ballast up to race weight, I feel this takes away some of the advantage I gained within the rules I built my car to. Now someone that did not bother to fully prep their car can just throw on larger wheels (and tires) to compensate for the extra weight they are carrying, rather than fully developing a car to run with me.
Say what you like, but this is not about 'protecting' a stock of wheels. It is about protecting the stability of a race class that is not broken. It changes the game for a lot of currently competitive cars. The whole class runs on 13, 14 or 15" wheels. How many 13x7 or 14x7 wheels do you run across? If your whole argument is based on the availability of 15x6 wheels, what do you propose that those running 13 or 14 sizes do when the rule changes? Yes they can run 15x7 if they want (just like you can run a stock VW 15x6 wheel right now), but how is my desire to run a smaller wheel any less important than your desire to use a 9# wheel? What is being asked for does not represent a need of the class, does not represent a barrier to new drivers entering the class, and does not 'do no harm' to those currently racing in the class. When 6" wheels options actually do dry up, I will fully support a wheel rule change, but we are not there yet.