When the stupid do dumb things!!!

I think I must be in the minority here. I have NO sympathy for the person in the red car. I mean he runs right into the back of the Midget, what 100' out of the pit lane! I mean Ray Charles could see this coming! The Miata is "scrubbing tires" using up the whole track, he was very consistant, we all knew what was going to happen, the red car drove right into the path of the Miata!

Now lets discuss scrubbing tires. I run an ITS car in a race group that includes, all IT plus Spec Miata, all are slower classes, so traffic can be a problem in qualifying. I make a point of getting to pre-grid first, then slowly "scrub" tires for about half a lap, that way I can get 1 maybe 2 clean laps to get a good time before getting stuck in traffic.

Is scrubbing tires illegal? NASA doesn't allow it in qualifying, probably not a bad idea.

Flame away! How big a tosser do you think I am? Or do you do the same?
 
I always take the first lap of track session as a time to be careful. Run at 6-7 10ths. Sure, scrub the tires a little. What I think everyone should be out there for is for a chance to look at the track and check your car out for part of a safe lap and get your senses about you. You do have to keep your eye on the mirror cause you never know if everyone wants to take a 7/10's lap but it seems like the majority to me. Aren't we all out there making sure everything and everyone is safe before we hammer it? The red car was being WAY to aggresive for an out lap. Was he going to win qualifying before the first corner?

I think it's hard to say who's dumber for the 2nd accident. The miata was being predictable and taking the whole track. One might also feel that any good racer is going to be checking his mirrors, seeing another car approaching and going around the side and leaving room for him. Truly, can you really depend on anyone out there? You're supposed to be able to but I'm not going to take my eyes off anyone just in case! Of course you could always go with 'it's the passing drivers job to pass safely". Well the miata driver didn't have to go and bash up his car by forgetting who was behind/beside him either.

Be smart out there. I'm to poor to have my car crashed into from any direction legal or not!
 
to those that say the red car was dumb to try and pass, you are agreeing with Mattberg, of the prod board fame. I agree, i would not have tried it, but......

that's because I would be chicken!

The rules are clear in this case, and the weaver was in the wrong on several counts. The red car (former ITB guy Chris Foley, was very respectful in his posts and comments, in spite of being called all sorts of names by Matt Weisberg.

his points were:
one- too many issues arise in qualifying that can cause the loss of the session, so it is important to get your fast laps in early. Coomon sense there.

two- he DID stop his inane weaving to let the car immediatley in front of Chris thru, so the precedent was that Chris could slip thru too.

three- he was SO wrong...he was holding up the entire grid! There are many rules regarding this, and he was in the wrong on most of them.

The driver of the car, Marc Cefalo, is son of Mike Cefalo, a semi regular poster who calls himself "the commander", and Mike has threatened a suit against someone who has made derogatory comments about Marcs driving in a thread over on the Prod site.

Looks to me like Marcs driving and Mikes bullying have risen to new putz levels!

(The driver of the car that got thru, testified for Chris Foley and backed up Chris' story during the protest hearing)
 
I to am guilty of going to the pre-pre grid to get out early. We have ITS ITA ITB and some other low attendance classes. We generally chat amongst ourselves and make sure everyone there is on the same page. Early bird gets the pole!!! With 90+ car fields, when you catch traffic your qualifying session is over. Anything else is a waste of tires and brakes. I absolutely agree that the guy weaving back and forth to hold the grid was waaaaay in the wrong. If that was his intent, he should have been watching his mirrors for people to come by fast and not hold them up when they are being persistent. At least keep an eye on them!! :blink: If he wanted to hold the pack he should have discussed it with at least the guys behind...It is terrible to see a car wrecked like that and it probably could have been easily avoided then again hindsight is 20/20. I think most of us have the weaving paranoia that someone is going to magically appear in your door so isnt it common sense to watch the mirrors when driving slow and weaving??
 
The out lap is almost never the fast lap. So why go flat out in a big field? You come out of the last turn just in time to catch cars still coming out of the pits. So you never get a clean lap. Neither do they.
Think about how fast the leaders catch the backmarkers in a typical qualifying session. Much quicker than in a race, right?
Hmmm....
 
Originally posted by badal@Sep 29 2005, 09:26 PM
..... why go flat out in a big field? You come out of the last turn just in time to catch cars still coming out of the pits. So you never get a clean lap.
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Actually, I never go go flat out on the out lap, and I don't think most people do. I go the 7/10 ths. At the tracks I've been at, Grattan, Mid-O, Gingerman, Road America, if I grid near the front, I can get 4-5 laps in before catching the last car in the pack, at which point my qualifying is over, but now I'm staying out to practice. It also tends to string the pack out a bit, which I feel helps everyone. However, I've probably started in the middle or rear of the pack as many times as I've been near the front. I appreciate people going a decent speed (highway type). I expect some weaving, though I never do. BUT blocking people or purposely going excessively slow to try and hold up people to create a break in traffic is outside the good sportsmanship of the sport (hobby). If its particularlly crowded, I may drive at 70-90% for a few laps until the track opens up a bit, pointing people by and/or passing a few people, until I am comfortable the track will be clear or clear enough. It is surprising that midway through a lot of qualifyings, I've done a bunch of double-takes on the flag stations, thinking I must have missed the checker and am the only one on the track. If you want to be at the front though, one trick I've learned to get open track (especially if you want to go slow and weave your tires for a lap)......don't race down to the grid. Procrastinate and be the last one down. Then, on the out lap, go VERY slow and let the pack race away (which is surprisingly difficult to do). Keep an eye in your mirrors for the lead car. If you plan it right, you will finish all your warming (weaving) of tires at the end of the first lap, with the lead car a half dozen car lenthts behind. Vola, you are now the lead car and have all the open track. However, if you attempt this where you are a significantly slower car or class, prepare to point the lead car(s) by if you're not up to speed, because they will be wanting to go.....NOW.
 
Originally posted by BMW RACER@Sep 29 2005, 02:38 PM
I think I must be in the minority here. I have NO sympathy for the person in the red car. I mean he runs right into the back of the Midget, what 100' out of the pit lane! I mean Ray Charles could see this coming! The Miata is "scrubbing tires" using up the whole track, he was very consistant, we all knew what was going to happen, the red car drove right into the path of the Miata!

Flame away! How big a tosser do you think I am? Or do you do the same?
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Oh where do I start........... :)


The Miata was so in the wrong AND unpredictable any arguments should end right there. If he is going to pull a stunt like that, he needs to be looking in the mirror!!! I'm not against tire scrubbing but anything more than one straight away........... Stay on one half of the track or the other, and watch your mirrors. That kid's head was so far up his a$$, they should yank his license.

You say the red car drove into the path of the Miata. Isn't that what we do when trying to pass on a corner??? :blink:
 
What is the point of going back and forth the way he was? The turns were not aggressive, hence the scrubbing effect was minimal, plus he was going from clean side to marbles..

I mean, I understand wanting to clean the tires, but it does not take that long to do it (when done aggressively). By that point I would have been focusing on warming the brakes and tires with hard acceleration and hard braking...

And, as for The Commander, what basis could he possibly have to sue? I can freely state my opinion and there is no law that says it can offend you...
 
I want to add some factual information to clear up some of the various assumptions being posted.
The schedule for the runoffs is: Monday - practice, first come first served; Tuesday - qualifying - random drawing for grid position; Wednesday -qualifying - grid by Tuesday qualifying times; Thursday - qualifying - grid by best lap time so far.
This took place in Thursday qualifying. I was gridded in 22nd out of 45 cars, 2 positions behind the Miata, and only 0.15 seconds slower so far. On Wednesday I was 19th on the grid, 3 positions behind the Miata. In Wednesday qualifying The Miata didn't do any weaving as he left the grid. Instead he took off quickly, and at my warm-up pace I never saw him on the track.
The father, in his race report on the NESCCA website (you should read the lies he posted there) claims Marc ran in the 39's during testing on the weekend, but he was only in the mid 41's during qualifying. I was turning my fastest times ever at M-O and still getting used to a new engine, gearbox and LSD. The top 3 cars in FP posted times in the 36's.
Monday Practice was ended early due to oil all the way around the track before halfway through the session. I spent the session checking guages and figuring out shift points, etc. instead of trying to go fast. Tuesday I spent the entire session on track getting faster. Wednesday was blackflagged after 4 laps and we subsequently went out for 2 more laps before the checker. My best lap on Wednesday was ruined by a car in front of me that slowed dramatically for a standing yellow at turn 13, yet I still improved my time from Tuesday. Despite the fact that I was faster I lost some grid position, as did Marc. That's because some of the really fast guys (who are more familiar with M-O) had car trouble on Tuesday, but ran well on Wednesday.
In a conversation with the father Wednesday evening he stated that Marc does crazy things in qualifying but settles down for the races. At the time I didn't think much of the statement because I thought he meant he tried various lines through corners etc.
When there are no flags displayed on track that means green flag conditions are implicit, and all the rules of the road apply, ie. right to racing room, blocking, no sudden changes of direction to impede anothers progress, use of mirrors, etc.
In the drivers meeting on Tuesday the issue of contact on track was discussed. Also the guidelines being used by the stewards for penalties associated with contact was available on a handout. I was at the meeting but less than 150 drivers were there, out of more than 700 entries. I took one of the handouts. The explanation was that position penalties would be assessed for contact based on the severity of the contact. Most of the penalties would be one or more grid positions lost as opposed to loss of times or disqualification, except in the most serious cases.
In the video you can see that Marc allowed everyone ahead of him to disappear into the distance by proceeding up pit lane in first gear. I've never gone that slowly behind anyone on pit lane in 13 years of racing. There were 25 cars stacked up behind him and a half mile of open track ahead of him by the time we reached the keyhole. The green flag was actually waving at the starters stand as we went by on the back straight. Marc should have certainly known by then that he was holding people up in violation of the rules, unless he just doesn't know the rules.
 
Originally posted by BMW RACER@Sep 29 2005, 02:38 PM
I have NO sympathy for the person in the red car.
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I never asked for or expected sympathy from anyone. I fully accept the responsibility for repairing my car if it is damaged while on track. I had the damage repaired to the satisfaction of tech before the race on Sunday. Damage to the Midget and to the Miata was minimal. My damage looked serious but was not structural. I was not mad at the Miata driver, astonished, but not angry. The Midget driver was not mad at me and supported my protest, as he too felt the same as I did about the behavior of the Miata driver.
 
Pronounced dramatic weaving is absolute BS and an annoyance whether it be a practice outlap or a race pace lap.

It doesn't accomplish squat. (try left foot brake dragging instead--heats the brakes and will warm tires a bit)

I also believe that Commander Cefalo's litigation threats were with respect to statements made on the Forum Board, not for track issues.

Everyone on that board should simply chill out and move on.
 
I've crewed several times for the Runoffs over the years...both at Road Atlanta and Mid Ohio. There is an absolute need to make every lap as fast as possible. So many outside activities influence each session that can foul up a qualifying lap. That's one of the many reasons that qualifying lasts so many days as opposed to our regular format. This is, after all, a national championship. You can't predict the weather or a blown engine during a track session, and everyone wants to have an opportunity to have as near an ideal qualifying session as possible.
The guy in the Miata was an idiot...so sue me. It only places an emphasis on the fact that anyone with a race car can get a national license and find a way to qualify for the Runoffs. There are no parameters in our licensing process to eliminate morons.
The attempted pass was, at best, ill-advised, but very understandable under the conditions. Hindsight would show that, considering the resulting impact, waiting a lap would've been the better action. However, I would've tried the pass, too. Since the Miata had been passed already, one would think that he was aware that there were other cars behind him, and that this was not a Solo 1 event. The need for a clear track is mandatory in qualifying for this race.
Sadly, the driver had not reached the black flag station, but I doubt that it would've made a difference.
As for having Daddy threaten to sue the bad men for saying hurtful things about his little boy...I'm sure that's not the first time that's happened. I've seen it in IT racing and Little League, too. No need to get into bad examples or bad parenting.
<_< Opinions are my own. Anyone who shares them do so at their own risk.
 
First off, weaving back and forth across the entire track is blocking, and not allowed per the GCR. Not giving racing room is an infraction per the GCR. Intentionally keeping people behind on a "green track" is, IMHO, unsportsmanlike conduct, again an infraction. All of these could be considered dangerous driving by a reasonable person, again an infraction of the GCR. Center-punching someone with the front of your car is most certainly wrong - a car that gets hit anywhere behind the front tire with the front of someone else's car is most certainly in front and should be given racing room (I hesitate to say they've established right of way, but that is what it boils down to). I don't care if it's practice, qualifying, a Regional, National, or the Runoffs, the person not allowing room and driving in a dangerous manner is guilty of several infractions per the GCR.

Driving on the street and driving on the track are different, but some rules, and behavior, do apply to both. How many of you are SCCA instructors? Would you condone this type of tire warming behavior at a Driver's School? Would you accept an explaination along the lines of this is/has been done/should be done, or explain it isn't acceptable and they should never do it again (and I can more than assure you if someone did this a second time after being told not to at the schools I instruct at, they would NOT pass the school). As to trying to pass someone acting in an erratic or dangerous manner, how many of you are content to remain behind an obviously drunk driver who is weaving and driving slowly on the highway? Don't you suck it up and try to get around quickly, then get out of sight as fast as you safely can? If you are behind someone you don't think is driving well on the race track, and is also slow, don't you try to get around them as quickly as you can? At the Runoffs, it is very common to get less green flag time than scheduled due to incidents, black flags, oil, and many other reasons. I learned long ago that it's best to make every lap count, and come around from the out-lap ready to go fast. Usually my 2nd lap is are my fastest. After that, I'm much too often hung up in traffic, or there are yellow flags, or an oil spill. Occasionally the last lap is the fastest since most others have pulled in, but since the risk of flags and oil is so high, it's almost always best to try to make the early laps count instead.

Am I saying this to justify Chris' pass? No. He can speak for, and take care of, himself. I'm saying this so maybe others will learn what to do, and what not to do, as they go thru their racing lives.

Chris Fox
 
Originally posted by joeg@Sep 30 2005, 09:24 AM
Pronounced dramatic weaving is absolute BS and an annoyance whether it be a practice outlap or a race pace lap.

It doesn't accomplish squat. (try left foot brake dragging instead--heats the brakes and will warm tires a bit)
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What is the purpose of weaving back and forth? Scrubbing? <_<
Go ask a race tire engineer what actually heats up the tires. Ignorance.
 
Originally posted by Bildon@Sep 30 2005, 05:24 PM
Go ask a race tire engineer what actually heats up the tires.  Ignorance.
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Really??? There must be some SERIOUSLY hot tires out there some weekends... ;)

(J/K, I know: it's accel and decel. Longitudinal forces, not lateral... GA)
 
I saw all manner of opening laps - in terms of flag conditions and procedures - over the years, running SCCA, ICSCC, and NASA events, and practice, qualifying, and race sessions:

1. Cars released, first lap under FCY, green as the first car comes by the first time

2. Cars released to a true, green, hot track

3. Cars released behind a pace car, race green may or may not be thrown

4. Cars released to questionable conditions under FCY, green may or may not be thrown after lap one

5. Cars released and specifically told to GO VERY SLOW behind a pace car to allow the previous group to clear the track (NASA roll-on, roll-off), with a "pretty sure" green after one lap. (This works great by the way, although one time we came through Hog Pen @ VIR to discover a parked line of cars at pit-in.)

6. What have I missed??

I also have a confession - In almost any of these situations, I have been known to be one of those evil swervers. The swings vary in size and intensity depending on traffic, flag condition, etc. but importantly I do it not pretending that I'm warming the tires.

Instead, it knocks off the VIR sand, reminds my little brain what the threshold feels like, and assesses the general grip level of the track. I'll do it on whatever straight I get emptied onto, and on the next long chute, if it comes up quicky on a given track, but then I'm on it before the end of lap one. I also warm my brakes and adjust my speed to the pack - a la commuting on I-40 eastbound - so as not to pass anyone if it's a FCY, or hold anyone up if it's not.

To my recollection, I have NEVER had an issue with anyone in these situations. My situation awareness tends to be pretty darned good, even if I'm not the fastest shoe in the closet. If anyone has had a problem with ME, they haven't mentioned it but I can't recall any near misses over the years.

I confess that I did get lulled into a snail's pace on the out lap of a session at the last NASA race I ran, appropriate to having started under yellow, simply because the entire pack was going so damned slow. After the second car passed me in my la-la land state, I woke up and went... :bash_1_: I get two dumb-ass moments each year.

Note here that, for whatever reason, my machine couldn't decode that video, so I'm making general statements, rather than specifically addressing the crash(es) at hand.

K
 
Originally posted by Knestis@Oct 1 2005, 01:29 AM

Note here that, for whatever reason, my machine couldn't decode that video, so I'm making general statements, rather than specifically addressing the crash(es) at hand.

K
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I think you need to see the video to appreciate the difference between weaving to knock debris off, making sure the car feels right, and maybe get some temperature in the tires (all of which I do), and this, keeping in mind it was a green track. Will you be at Summit Point next weekend? If so, I can save the video and show it to you. I think (hope?) you will then understand the difference.
 
Originally posted by mowog@Oct 1 2005, 02:11 AM
I think you need to see the video ...
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Alrighty, then. Got it downloaded and opened.

Wotta dumass.

That is a case of either (1) the most abominable lack of SA ever, or (2) the most arrogant SOB-ness in the world. Either oblivious to the fact that there are other cars on the track or selfish enough to actually try to hinder their passing him. Ignorant or irresponsble.

I honestly do NOT know which.

K
 
Kirk, I DO know which...and it's on the tape...

It is hard to see, because he drove in FIRST gear down the ENTIRE grid, and pit lane and pit out....but there were 25 ..yup..TWENTY FIVE or so cars already in front of him! I thought he was first on the grid when I saw the tape the first time, LOL..

But...he KNOWS there are guys behind him too...one actually ran the gauntlet and got by him...oh, he KNEW what he was doing, but it was all about HIM, and he couldn't give a crap.

Now his father "the commander" (Also, no shock here, he's a lawyer, from what I understand) has said he will be bringing a lawsuit against someone on the Prod board who has evidently angered him suficiently over the critical comments aimed at his self centered son...........

they're a real asset to the racing community, eh??

(If you are capable enough to make it to our National Championships, you can not possibly be ignorant enough to behave like this. I hope. This has to be a case of maliciousness)
 
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