ChrisCamadella
New member
Very well said, and I couldn't agree more...
Cheers,
Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S
Cheers,
Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S
Who's job is it anyway?
- Thread starter Mike Cox
- Start date
We can all write the cute yada, yada, yada what if's. Read what was said by Mike. He & the Tech Offical were talking/having a conversation about two ITCS rules...............................
Skip all your what if & it could have been this & it could have been that. Take the two friken ITCS rules points stated, that's all & in your humble judgement is the Tech Offical correct or in correct.
bldn10, were the Tech Officals responses per the ITCS correct or incorrect ???????
Chris, were the Tech Officals responses per the ITCS correct or incorrect ???????
Have Fun
David
Skip all your what if & it could have been this & it could have been that. Take the two friken ITCS rules points stated, that's all & in your humble judgement is the Tech Offical correct or in correct.
bldn10, were the Tech Officals responses per the ITCS correct or incorrect ???????
Chris, were the Tech Officals responses per the ITCS correct or incorrect ???????
Have Fun
David
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I will say this.....I have heard of many instances now where officials have either discouraged or stonewalled protest requests....
This fellow in tech is part of that group which includes stewards that are well informed.
In a club where self policing carries such a high social cost to the protester, such resistance is one more hurdle that we don't need.
I understand that protests should not be written friviously, but I don't think we are in a position where the number of "nusance" protests is more than a small percentage.
I understand that nobody wants to spend all night at the track, miss the beer party, etc, but stewards and officials must never act in a way that hinders the protocols and procedures.
The above comment is more general in nature, and not aimed at this particular situation. Of course schools operate differently....but the question wasn't answered correctly in any event. The official should have either gotten out the rulebook and helped with the reading, or sent the question up the pipe, or both. In any case, passing judgement that the cars modifications were fine because they didn't, in his (wrong) opinion, enhance performance, was flat out of line, and 100% wrong.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited July 20, 2004).]
This fellow in tech is part of that group which includes stewards that are well informed.
In a club where self policing carries such a high social cost to the protester, such resistance is one more hurdle that we don't need.
I understand that protests should not be written friviously, but I don't think we are in a position where the number of "nusance" protests is more than a small percentage.
I understand that nobody wants to spend all night at the track, miss the beer party, etc, but stewards and officials must never act in a way that hinders the protocols and procedures.
The above comment is more general in nature, and not aimed at this particular situation. Of course schools operate differently....but the question wasn't answered correctly in any event. The official should have either gotten out the rulebook and helped with the reading, or sent the question up the pipe, or both. In any case, passing judgement that the cars modifications were fine because they didn't, in his (wrong) opinion, enhance performance, was flat out of line, and 100% wrong.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited July 20, 2004).]
bldn10
New member
No, David, the guy did not correctly state "the Rules." We all know that "performance advantage" is not generally a relevant concept. Feel better now? But I stand by my position. I think anyone who would protest a guy's car at a school for a headlight is a real #$%hole. Perhaps the tech guy should have told Mike that he was right but to give the guy a break and let him do the school w/ the admonishment that he would not be allowed to race until such obvious flaws were corrected or, at most, reported it to the Chief Steward. Anyway, as Chris pointed out, it's not the tech's place to interpret and enforce such rules. This is like engaging a corner worker in a discussion of the "rules of the road" in the GCR - they may have their opinion but it is just that because they don't decide protests. OTOH if he really thought that was what the Rule said, that is somewhat disconcerting. But I doubt that is the case.
David, are you advocating that all rules be enforced to the fullest extent in every circumstance w/o any discretion? If so, then I assume that when you get stopped by a cop for speeding and he only gives you a warning, you correct him and demand the ticket the law calls for. Right?
David, are you advocating that all rules be enforced to the fullest extent in every circumstance w/o any discretion? If so, then I assume that when you get stopped by a cop for speeding and he only gives you a warning, you correct him and demand the ticket the law calls for. Right?
planet6racing
New member
I think that anyone who shows up to a drivers school with a car that illegal that he/she owns should instantly fail the drivers school. One of the point of the drivers school is to demonstrate knowledge and understanding of the GCR. If your car is that illegal, you have not read the GCR and therefore you fail.
Mean? Yes, it is. Will it anger a few people? Yes, it will. But, it will definitely drive home the point and stop the questions like "how do I protest?" or some of the other common ones we hear that are clearly covered in the GCR.
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
Mean? Yes, it is. Will it anger a few people? Yes, it will. But, it will definitely drive home the point and stop the questions like "how do I protest?" or some of the other common ones we hear that are clearly covered in the GCR.
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
Maybe I missed something but what the heck kind of school are we talking about? If there are no trophies and no 'real' racing for timd position, what could be the basis for a protest?
He is a newbie: ask him if he owns a GCR, point out the illegalities and educate him in a nice, professional, and friendly manner. Simple.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
He is a newbie: ask him if he owns a GCR, point out the illegalities and educate him in a nice, professional, and friendly manner. Simple.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
planet6racing
New member
Andy:
I know what you are saying. But, if you have to ask him if he owns a GCR, how can he pass the school?
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
I know what you are saying. But, if you have to ask him if he owns a GCR, how can he pass the school?
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
Having gone through the driver's school process again after years, I have a new perspective on it. I'd suggest a middle ground between sending people home if there are irregularities with their cars and what I saw as common practice - pretty much ignoring ANY aspect of legality other than blatant safety issues.
Part of the school process should be a real tech inspection that points out any issues that the inspectors see. This process would do several things including setting a tone for new drivers, helping them understand that there IS such thing as "legal" and "illegal."
The message would be, "our priority here is to get you licensed and legality is not really an issue - since there is NO race. But you need to (a) learn the GCR, and (
get your car right before it starts to matter."K
planet6racing
New member
Kirk:
Did your drivers school incorporate a test of the GCR? Mine did. It didn't cover the specific classes, but it definitely did test if I had read and understood the main GCR sections.
I like your idea of a real tech inspection. However, I don't think we can rely on tech for it as they are already overwhelmed at the D/S with giving (or re-giving) full inspections of all vehicles. Maybe a board of peers? You'd have some of the more senior racers (or those that know the GCR) looking at all the cars, possibly even before the show up to drivers school.
But, then again, this is removing the personal responsibility of the soon-to-be racer of reading and understanding the GCR...
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
Did your drivers school incorporate a test of the GCR? Mine did. It didn't cover the specific classes, but it definitely did test if I had read and understood the main GCR sections.
I like your idea of a real tech inspection. However, I don't think we can rely on tech for it as they are already overwhelmed at the D/S with giving (or re-giving) full inspections of all vehicles. Maybe a board of peers? You'd have some of the more senior racers (or those that know the GCR) looking at all the cars, possibly even before the show up to drivers school.
But, then again, this is removing the personal responsibility of the soon-to-be racer of reading and understanding the GCR...
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
OK EVERYBODY TAKE A DEEP BREATH !
I never said the car was being driven in the driver's school. I said (once again) I was having a conversation with a tech inspector AT the driver's school.
Remember the thread I had back in May concerning the car my student rented that car and the owner gave my student a motorcycle helmet to use? I was asking the tech inspector certain questions to make sure I was clear in the tech inspector's thought process before I proceeded forward with dropping the hammer on that guy at the next regional race.
Thanks for all the input on this, I now have a plan as to how and when to slam the hammer.
Mike
I never said the car was being driven in the driver's school. I said (once again) I was having a conversation with a tech inspector AT the driver's school.
Remember the thread I had back in May concerning the car my student rented that car and the owner gave my student a motorcycle helmet to use? I was asking the tech inspector certain questions to make sure I was clear in the tech inspector's thought process before I proceeded forward with dropping the hammer on that guy at the next regional race.
Thanks for all the input on this, I now have a plan as to how and when to slam the hammer.
Mike
planet6racing
New member
Mike:
Fear not, I'm not riled up. I just have a problem with people that show up completely unprepared yet they knew they should have been prepared (if that makes any sense).
You should absolutely go after this guy and protest him six ways from Sunday. No point in the gentleman's approach after what he's already done!
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
Fear not, I'm not riled up. I just have a problem with people that show up completely unprepared yet they knew they should have been prepared (if that makes any sense).
You should absolutely go after this guy and protest him six ways from Sunday. No point in the gentleman's approach after what he's already done!
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
weedracer94
New member
Excuse my ignorance, but how can a car be illegal for competitive advantage issues in a driver school, if there are no classes in the run groups. Only safety issues should be a concern. Our D/S simply have run groups of open or closed wheel cars, and students for those groups are selected by a guess of relative experience.
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ITA 94
SFR SCCA
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ITA 94
SFR SCCA
Before you guys get your titties too much more in a twaddle, I believe it is common practice to include in the supplementary regulations a note that says cars that meet the minimum safety specifications are eligible to participate. Many also include words that state conformance to specific rules is not required.
OUCH!
Mean? Perhaps.
Harsh? Bloody right.
I think any car that can meet the safety specs should be allowed in a driver's school.
I think we need to be more newbie friendly. In fact, at schools I'd rather see folks who are available for newbies to establish the legality of their cars and if illegal, how to make their cars legal.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Originally posted by Knestis:
Part of the school process should be a real tech inspection that points out any issues that the inspectors see. This process would do several things including setting a tone for new drivers, helping them understand that there IS such thing as "legal" and "illegal."
The message would be, "our priority here is to get you licensed and legality is not really an issue - since there is NO race. But you need to (a) learn the GCR, and (
Kirk, I don't think I've ever agreed with you more.
This is a school. By definition we should be teaching. I think this becomes confusing. Yes, a passing grade is also required, but there is no reason homework and make-up exams (so to speak) cannot be assigned.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
planet6racing
New member
Ooh, more devil's advocate play!
If a car comes into the DS (we'll just abbreviate that now) and into the tech shed, it needs to have a logbook, correct? That log book identifies the class that the car is built for, correct? If it doesn't meet the rules for that class, is it not protestable?
I absolutely believe that protesting should be taught at the DS. It'll help teach everyone the process and will reinforce the procedure for all the officials.
(on edit after reading George's posts above again) I'd even volunteer to come to the DS and look over cars if people wanted to know legal/illegal. I'll probably get frustrated at the obvious stuff (like headlights on an RX-7) because that's pretty clear in the GCR, but I'd still help out!
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited July 21, 2004).]
If a car comes into the DS (we'll just abbreviate that now) and into the tech shed, it needs to have a logbook, correct? That log book identifies the class that the car is built for, correct? If it doesn't meet the rules for that class, is it not protestable?
I absolutely believe that protesting should be taught at the DS. It'll help teach everyone the process and will reinforce the procedure for all the officials.
(on edit after reading George's posts above again) I'd even volunteer to come to the DS and look over cars if people wanted to know legal/illegal. I'll probably get frustrated at the obvious stuff (like headlights on an RX-7) because that's pretty clear in the GCR, but I'd still help out!
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited July 21, 2004).]
Bill, I see where you're going, but sit back and think about your first (and second) driver's school.
Remember how behind the curve you were? Remember how you were trying to stay on top of the game and not die (or worse, look stupid?) Now think how you would have felt if some guy walked up to your car with a laundry list of things you need to change, while telling you he was gonna teach you the finer points of the SCCA vehicle protest process...
I think there are much more important things to fill in the newbies' heads. Let's play devil's advocate once they have the Black Flag All procedure down pat.
GA
Remember how behind the curve you were? Remember how you were trying to stay on top of the game and not die (or worse, look stupid?) Now think how you would have felt if some guy walked up to your car with a laundry list of things you need to change, while telling you he was gonna teach you the finer points of the SCCA vehicle protest process...
I think there are much more important things to fill in the newbies' heads. Let's play devil's advocate once they have the Black Flag All procedure down pat.
GA
planet6racing
New member
Greg:
No offense, but I do remember my DS. I also remember working for 2 years building my car, buying the GCR each year to make sure the car was legal. I remember showing up to tech knowing, absolutely, there was no way I was going to fail. The only time I truly felt overwhelmed was when my only crew person told me he had to leave at noon on the first day! I never really worried about being on top of my game, just worried about making it through safely and without having to talk to the SOM/Chief Steward.
I guess I should have been a little more clear. I don't think that people need to pick one person to protest. I do think that the school need to go over the protesting procedure and forms better, perhaps even to the extent of writing up a bogus protest, so that it may not seem so intimidating to newbies.
Alright, I promise I'll stop. I really do want new blood in the SCCA, I just want to make sure we don't go the way of some school systems and coddle the young'ens (figuratively) without introducing them to real life.
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
No offense, but I do remember my DS. I also remember working for 2 years building my car, buying the GCR each year to make sure the car was legal. I remember showing up to tech knowing, absolutely, there was no way I was going to fail. The only time I truly felt overwhelmed was when my only crew person told me he had to leave at noon on the first day! I never really worried about being on top of my game, just worried about making it through safely and without having to talk to the SOM/Chief Steward.
I guess I should have been a little more clear. I don't think that people need to pick one person to protest. I do think that the school need to go over the protesting procedure and forms better, perhaps even to the extent of writing up a bogus protest, so that it may not seem so intimidating to newbies.
Alright, I promise I'll stop. I really do want new blood in the SCCA, I just want to make sure we don't go the way of some school systems and coddle the young'ens (figuratively) without introducing them to real life.
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
***I was having a conversation with a tech official at our driver's school Sunday and the topic of rules came up and whether a certain car was in violation of the rules.***
Mike, will you please EDIT your first post on this subject. Eliminate the words ät our drivers school". Way to many people have their shorts all waddd up because of these words IMHJ.
FOLKS WITHIN THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD THE "POSTER" SAID NOTHING ABOUT A PROTEST. The Tech Offical may have used the word & the poster may have repeated the Tech Officals word.
Just like many other posts that go on tangents.
Have Fun
David
[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited July 21, 2004).]
Mike, will you please EDIT your first post on this subject. Eliminate the words ät our drivers school". Way to many people have their shorts all waddd up because of these words IMHJ.
FOLKS WITHIN THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD THE "POSTER" SAID NOTHING ABOUT A PROTEST. The Tech Offical may have used the word & the poster may have repeated the Tech Officals word.
Just like many other posts that go on tangents.
Have Fun
David
[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited July 21, 2004).]
ChrisCamadella
New member
Greg, I just want you to know that my titties are nowhere even close to being in a twaddle.
C'mon guys, this one has gotten a little out of hand, I think, not to mention the fact that we're all over the board with respect the original subject matter.
Send a guy home from a driver's school because he didn't understand the rules? Ummm, this is silly. How about if we just help to teach him 'the ropes' instead. A lot of stuff that you learn in school isn't necessarily in the classroom. I certainly needed to learn a lot of things at my first driver's school, and I'm willing to learn some more things now. Remember, we all do this for fun, and all of the 'officials' are volunteers.
Protest a guy for having wrong headlights?
Maybe, actually, but not until I spoke with him about it and he told me that he was right and I was wrong. And, obviously, not in the driver's school, and probably not if I beat him. You don't have to bother beating someone in the paddock if you beat them on the race track.
Was the tech guy wrong? Again, it sounds like it, but he's entitled to his opinion, and the (volunteer) tech guys get beat up all of the time anyway. Besides, you are there, busy racing in IT, expecting the tech guy to "show me in the rules..." something or another, but the tech guy has to look at ALL of the cars. That book looks awfully thick to me, and I'd be really surprised if even the big cheese honcho of tech in the sky has all of those pages committed to memory. Let's cut him a break.
Ok, I and my titties are going back to work...
Cheers,
Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S
C'mon guys, this one has gotten a little out of hand, I think, not to mention the fact that we're all over the board with respect the original subject matter.
Send a guy home from a driver's school because he didn't understand the rules? Ummm, this is silly. How about if we just help to teach him 'the ropes' instead. A lot of stuff that you learn in school isn't necessarily in the classroom. I certainly needed to learn a lot of things at my first driver's school, and I'm willing to learn some more things now. Remember, we all do this for fun, and all of the 'officials' are volunteers.
Protest a guy for having wrong headlights?
Maybe, actually, but not until I spoke with him about it and he told me that he was right and I was wrong. And, obviously, not in the driver's school, and probably not if I beat him. You don't have to bother beating someone in the paddock if you beat them on the race track.
Was the tech guy wrong? Again, it sounds like it, but he's entitled to his opinion, and the (volunteer) tech guys get beat up all of the time anyway. Besides, you are there, busy racing in IT, expecting the tech guy to "show me in the rules..." something or another, but the tech guy has to look at ALL of the cars. That book looks awfully thick to me, and I'd be really surprised if even the big cheese honcho of tech in the sky has all of those pages committed to memory. Let's cut him a break.
Ok, I and my titties are going back to work...
Cheers,
Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S