A protest story.
- Thread starter lateapex911
- Start date
Bill Miller
New member
Based on Tom's comments, sounds like Shane knew the deal all along. I'm guessing that he never thought anyone would actually pony up the money to protest him. And, as Lesley said, the driver is ultimately responsible. Just ask the guy (can't remember his name) that lost the HP national championship because his engine builder used stock valves, and didn't measure them. Turns out they were a couple of thou. too big (.003" IIRC).
I still can't believe that the throttle body got a pass, and that it wasn't impounded pending appeal. Especially since it was not clear that it was legal.
That lack of a proper 'kit' for performing some fairly standard measurements, is also disheartening.
As far as the penalty being too severe, I don't think so. But I also think that Shane will be a pariah for quite some time.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
I still can't believe that the throttle body got a pass, and that it wasn't impounded pending appeal. Especially since it was not clear that it was legal.
That lack of a proper 'kit' for performing some fairly standard measurements, is also disheartening.
As far as the penalty being too severe, I don't think so. But I also think that Shane will be a pariah for quite some time.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
gran racing
Super Moderator
The throttle body and compression check (or lack thereof) were the most disappointing to me. Throttle body – I don’t think it is a big deal that the part #s were worn off. If filed off that would be a different story. As others have said, many of our vehicles are pretty old and I would imagine that stuff just happens. I honestly do not know if the part number is still easily visible on my throttle body. (I am curious to check now though) But needless to say it should have been measured for proper size or held until it could be.
This protest still leaves many questions unanswered and it could frustrate both parties. Assuming the compression and throttle body were legal and I guess we have to assume they were at this point (although there will always be questions), I as the person being protested would have wanted these items checked thoroughly to rid any possible doubt. Maybe that’s just me.
The penalty – we are all going to view this one a bit differently with our different perspectives. For someone knowledgeable of building engines, this tear down may not be that big of a deal especially at the end of a season. Heck, this stuff may have already been planned for anyway so what is the big deal? Loss of the race finish? If you’re not in a season points chase, big deal. On the other hand, if you have someone like myself this would be a pretty significant punishment. Put back together an engine? Oh great!
The piston / picture thing has me a bit puzzled and this may be due to my lack of knowledge with pistons. Could a person tell from a picture if it is illegal or not? Obviously in this case you can.
Jake and Tom, based on your experience do you see any way to create a template or guide for a protest request? No, not just the info. stated in the GCR. Something that would be more helpful to the average racer. I’m certainly taking notes from your experiences; but hopefully I’ll never have to worry about it.
The bond that agreed upon – would you mind sharing the associated cost to protest these items?
When you really think about it, this protest was very successful overall. One of the most important outcomes of this is that we all have learned a lot from your experience. And now hopefully protests will be handled a bit differently in the future and the regions will have the necessary tools available in the future. (My wife always yells at me to look at the postive side) The protest system really needs to be re-evaluated.
Thanks for taking the time to share this!
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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
This protest still leaves many questions unanswered and it could frustrate both parties. Assuming the compression and throttle body were legal and I guess we have to assume they were at this point (although there will always be questions), I as the person being protested would have wanted these items checked thoroughly to rid any possible doubt. Maybe that’s just me.
The penalty – we are all going to view this one a bit differently with our different perspectives. For someone knowledgeable of building engines, this tear down may not be that big of a deal especially at the end of a season. Heck, this stuff may have already been planned for anyway so what is the big deal? Loss of the race finish? If you’re not in a season points chase, big deal. On the other hand, if you have someone like myself this would be a pretty significant punishment. Put back together an engine? Oh great!
The piston / picture thing has me a bit puzzled and this may be due to my lack of knowledge with pistons. Could a person tell from a picture if it is illegal or not? Obviously in this case you can.
Jake and Tom, based on your experience do you see any way to create a template or guide for a protest request? No, not just the info. stated in the GCR. Something that would be more helpful to the average racer. I’m certainly taking notes from your experiences; but hopefully I’ll never have to worry about it.
The bond that agreed upon – would you mind sharing the associated cost to protest these items?
When you really think about it, this protest was very successful overall. One of the most important outcomes of this is that we all have learned a lot from your experience. And now hopefully protests will be handled a bit differently in the future and the regions will have the necessary tools available in the future. (My wife always yells at me to look at the postive side) The protest system really needs to be re-evaluated.
Thanks for taking the time to share this!
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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
Lesley, I agree. We (the racers) are the ones who are responsible for ensuring our cars are legal. I further, completely understand that if it was an acceptable out (to blame your motor builder) those who would willingly cheat would also not hesitate to claim ignorance.
My perspective: I raced Formula Ford. A good rebuild from Ivey will set me back about $7000. Are you suggesting that I need to have that motor shipped 1500 miles back to me, fresh off the dyno and take it apart to make certain it is legal? And then put this very carefully assembled motor back together?
I don't think that is what you really think is practical. We have to rely on our motor builders' reputation as building top quality legal race motors.
[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited October 19, 2004).]
My question remains: should it have been?
I'm not so sure. From reading Jake's account, the protest specified the manner in which legality would be ascertained.
I'm disappointed the ruling was "We can't tell, so it's legal." I would really like to know (if anyone does for sure) if it is simply beyond the scope of the protest to use another method. This is important to know.
What may seem on the surface as common sense to try another method, it may not be proper within the protest rules. I just don't know.
If it would be proper, Jake would have had the (lost) opportunity to protest the SOM Chair for failing to retain the questionable part.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
RSTPerformance
New member
Shane-
I am sure you have some sort of recourse with your engine builder. I am sure that you have documentation that you spent thousands of dollars for a LEGAL motor. If a professional engine builder built me an illegal motor you bet your a$$ I would be going after them to pay additional costs plus the costs for someone trustworthy to build another one.
We spend $5,000-$10,000 on motors for AS, that is a lot of money to be dishing out, and we better be getting what we pay for (professionally built motor). As for the ITB cars, well we dish out $0.00 to a few crew people who will loose their hats if they build me an illegal motor
. The responsibility comes more on me at that point.
Good Luck Shane on getting some money back from the engine builder. Who was the horrid engine builder who put you through all this??? I always like to know where the cheating all begins. I loved the post a little while back with the ad from Turner Motorsports selling the illegal BMW cams for ITS. I lost a lot of respect for that team.
Raymond “I bet the engine builder blames Shane… Get everything in writing” Blethen
I am sure you have some sort of recourse with your engine builder. I am sure that you have documentation that you spent thousands of dollars for a LEGAL motor. If a professional engine builder built me an illegal motor you bet your a$$ I would be going after them to pay additional costs plus the costs for someone trustworthy to build another one.
We spend $5,000-$10,000 on motors for AS, that is a lot of money to be dishing out, and we better be getting what we pay for (professionally built motor). As for the ITB cars, well we dish out $0.00 to a few crew people who will loose their hats if they build me an illegal motor
Good Luck Shane on getting some money back from the engine builder. Who was the horrid engine builder who put you through all this??? I always like to know where the cheating all begins. I loved the post a little while back with the ad from Turner Motorsports selling the illegal BMW cams for ITS. I lost a lot of respect for that team.
Raymond “I bet the engine builder blames Shane… Get everything in writing” Blethen
Bill Miller
New member
For the people that feel that the engine builder may have done this on his own. What do you feel would be the motivation for an engine builder to build a known illegal engine, w/o the driver knowing anything about it? If it's a professional engine shop, why would they take that kind of risk? Where's the reward for them? The potential to lose a large portion of their business is high. After all, who would go to a builder that knowingly builds illegal motors?
For those that have asked about the difficulty in telling legal parts from illegal ones, in this case, pistons. If you look at the pistons from an A2 VW GTI (10:1), and the pistons from an A1 VW GTI (8.5:1), you sure can't tell them apart by looking at the top. They're both 81mm pistons, and you can use either one in either block.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
For those that have asked about the difficulty in telling legal parts from illegal ones, in this case, pistons. If you look at the pistons from an A2 VW GTI (10:1), and the pistons from an A1 VW GTI (8.5:1), you sure can't tell them apart by looking at the top. They're both 81mm pistons, and you can use either one in either block.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Raymond...let me clear up a couple little points.
First, don't lose respect for Turner...I think we surmised that he was playing a bit of a joke, and doing a little bit of finger pointing by "selling" those used cams on his site. I think his rep is pretty clean, even in a pro series where the "rules of engagement" are quite different.
Secondly, I hope Shane didn't shell out thousands of dollars for this build, because he got ripped off if he did. The pertinant items I was told were: The head...measured within new tolerances. (in other words, never cut.) The valves and ports were stock. (In other words, no sign of any machine work on the head) Hence, no money spent there.
The deck was 'factory clean' according to the results I was told. No cutting there, therefor no money spent on it.
So, it would appear, that the pistons and rings were the entire "rebuild". As it was reported that they were domed units (which are visibly quite different than the stock units), a conclusion could be reached that this "build" was a mere replacement of higher compression pistons, which is the quick and easy way to make power.
(An interesting aside here was that the pistons were actually spotted by a distant observer during the teardown, and reported to me later that day, but I dismissed it as unreliable third party info. "How can you tell from 20 feet away?" I thought. Evidently, you can....)
If Shanes builder was able to build a motor in such a way, and bamboozle Shane by showing no receipts for the usual machine work, etc, then charge Shane thousands of dollars, the guy should be in jail!
Another possibility here is that Shane is telling a bit of the truth. Maybe he bought the engine from another guy, or a wreck or something, was under the assumption that it was legal, then decided to tell a white lie to protect the seller.
Of course, the bottom line is the same...it's your ass on the line and you better be SURE you know what you got.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Ron Earp
Administrator
From the perspective of a newcomer this is a very informative post and I'm happy to see it brought out in the open. Thanks much and keep it coming. This is a much better way to learn how things work in the real world rather than having to read the rule book which outlines the process, but nothing more, or, having it happen to one's self.
Ron
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
Ron
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
SALES! Fast motors sell more motors.
I don't think they would if they felt that the motor was likely to get inspected.
Again--$ale$.
I certainly would not. I have been on the receiving end of an illegal motor that was in a car that I purhcased. It had been built by a professional builder. I was owner #3, owner #1 was a Runoffs winner while utilizing the same motor builder as owner #2. Before you call me out for not naming names...I don't KNOW with certainty that this motor was not altered by owner #2. #2 only had 8 races in the log book, with receipts for the motor rebuild during that time frame. The mechanical aptitude of owner #2 was very low--so I don't believe he did it. But I don't KNOW, so how dare I tarnish a shops' image by naming names.
Sorry, you don't have to accept my viewpoint. But, I do believe it happens.
Why do people pay SunBelt $5000 to take a brand new crate Miata motor and make it faster?
Because whatever magic is worked on a motor that is suppsoed to be stock, can't be detected.
You send cubic dollars on a motor that should not cost that much, you are paying for a engine that will pass tech. Legal, or illegal, you expect it to pass tech.
Because whatever magic is worked on a motor that is suppsoed to be stock, can't be detected.
You send cubic dollars on a motor that should not cost that much, you are paying for a engine that will pass tech. Legal, or illegal, you expect it to pass tech.
I'm sorry, but this engine builder legality debate doesn't wash with me. I am very certain that engine builders will give an exact quote to the client for engine work, detailing the machining & parts. ie: "Do you want .020" over OEM Honda pistons for $250, or do you want the .040" over HC aftermarkets for $1000". Big difference in price. Also, if said engine was purchased from racer #1 and you are racer #3 (getting the rebuild done), wouldn't the engine builder call you up and let you know about the extra costs above the normal rebuild because of these pistons?
I just don't buy it.
[This message has been edited by racer-025 (edited October 20, 2004).]
I just don't buy it.
[This message has been edited by racer-025 (edited October 20, 2004).]
It's been a while but I've seen "real" engine builders do some devious stuff:
** Suggest that installing a cam in an otherwise stock VW "because it will make the same power as a really good, legal IT motor for a lot less money."
** Ask me if I want to be "legal, 'legal,' or competitive."
** Suggest the "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" parts that "nobody will notice because you have the only Renault out there."
** Suggest that "nobody will bother you" about "safety" issues - like aftermarket rod bolts (so you don't blow up and oil the track).
However, I have never heard of anyone putting illegal parts into an engine without the customer knowing about it. They cost money after all.
I've never really thought about it like this but it IS blindingly obvious that they wouldn't build cheater engines if they believed anyone was checking.
K
** Suggest that installing a cam in an otherwise stock VW "because it will make the same power as a really good, legal IT motor for a lot less money."
** Ask me if I want to be "legal, 'legal,' or competitive."
** Suggest the "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" parts that "nobody will notice because you have the only Renault out there."
** Suggest that "nobody will bother you" about "safety" issues - like aftermarket rod bolts (so you don't blow up and oil the track).
However, I have never heard of anyone putting illegal parts into an engine without the customer knowing about it. They cost money after all.
I've never really thought about it like this but it IS blindingly obvious that they wouldn't build cheater engines if they believed anyone was checking.
K
almracing
New member
I have a couple of questions about the process...
Since the engine was found to be in "non-comliance", is it noted in the log book?
And (not to hammer this particular issue), are non-compliant parts reinspected for entry into the next event?
It is a bummer to see the results of the protest... being that is was found in favor of the protestors. It was a hard season for our race team, and to think we were passed by an illegal car begs the question; how would we have finished if everything was even?
Looking foward to the 2005 season.
Anthony R.
ITA #86 NER
Honda CRX Si
Since the engine was found to be in "non-comliance", is it noted in the log book?
And (not to hammer this particular issue), are non-compliant parts reinspected for entry into the next event?
It is a bummer to see the results of the protest... being that is was found in favor of the protestors. It was a hard season for our race team, and to think we were passed by an illegal car begs the question; how would we have finished if everything was even?
Looking foward to the 2005 season.
Anthony R.
ITA #86 NER
Honda CRX Si
Festus E. Simkins
New member
Lesley Albin's crystal clear logic comes through again.
Beer and Food. Works for me.
BTW the valve thing has happened twice at the Run Offs. A couple years ago it was Bob Webber in a H-Production bugeye sprite at MO. Many many years ago it was Anatoly Aroutenoff (sic)(I believe he built Hallett)in a 948cc AH Sprite powered Morgan at Road Atlanta. It cost them both a national championship. However, both Bob and Toly have won national championships in H-Production.
BTW the valve thing has happened twice at the Run Offs. A couple years ago it was Bob Webber in a H-Production bugeye sprite at MO. Many many years ago it was Anatoly Aroutenoff (sic)(I believe he built Hallett)in a 948cc AH Sprite powered Morgan at Road Atlanta. It cost them both a national championship. However, both Bob and Toly have won national championships in H-Production.
No, they all won't. For example want a National quality motor from IVEY or Acme? Send them yours and they'll tell you that it will run somewhere between $X000-X0000 depending on what is needed. They won't know how much until they have yours apart. Further, oftentimes the illegal/non-oem part is cheaper and easier to come by, no 'need' to tell you that they are cutting costs on the rebuild.
I think you may be confusing me with the actual protested party. I had no involvement in this protest. Just relating the information I had to share about my situation. In my situation the motor builder would have machined parts to allow them to be reused, rather than purchasing a new part (machining this old part would have saved the owner money as well as provided a competitive advantage) Perhaps he passed this savings on to racer #2, perhaps he never told racer #2 of it, perhaps it was on racer #1's car when he had it. Perhaps racer #2 replaced it himself with the motor builder having ZERO knowledge/involvement?
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Daryl DeArman
[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited October 20, 2004).]
In my search for a new car/ new class/ new motor builder. I made it clear I was looking for a proven-competitive no-excuses car. I have already been asked this same question.
My response was, of course "(D)both A and C"
To which the answer was "good luck, it can be done but it won't be easy."
I am up for the challenge, with a close eye on others who appear to be going a little faster than I think they should, especially those being prepped out of this same shop. If they are smart they won't blow me away down the straights..they'll give it just enough throttle and spin it just tight enough to stay slightly ahead...always with something in reserve that I'll never know about.
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Daryl DeArman
Bill Miller
New member
Festus,
It was Bob Weber that I was thinking about, thanks.
Anyone besides me wondering why Shane hasn't shown his face here? IF it really was something that he had no knowledge of, I'd think he'd be trying to explain things, and at the very least, offering an apology to his competitors.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
It was Bob Weber that I was thinking about, thanks.
Anyone besides me wondering why Shane hasn't shown his face here? IF it really was something that he had no knowledge of, I'd think he'd be trying to explain things, and at the very least, offering an apology to his competitors.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608