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Dick Elliott
Guest
JOE! Where have you been? If you only run NASA, we still want to hear from you. Hell, if you run Mexico, we still want to hear from you.
A protest story.
- Thread starter lateapex911
- Start date
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Well, we don't know the exact CR that was the result of running the improper piston, but.....
......assuming that you wouldn't put an obviously illegal piston in for little or no gain, (its just common sense to maximize the risk/reward ratio) we can surmise that the compression jump was a couple points, which, according to my engineer friends and their thermodynaic calculations results in a HP increase of about 5%.
I know that if I were running down the straight behind another RX-7, I would give my eye teeth for an extra 5% when I pulled out of the draft to pass.....
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
......assuming that you wouldn't put an obviously illegal piston in for little or no gain, (its just common sense to maximize the risk/reward ratio) we can surmise that the compression jump was a couple points, which, according to my engineer friends and their thermodynaic calculations results in a HP increase of about 5%.
I know that if I were running down the straight behind another RX-7, I would give my eye teeth for an extra 5% when I pulled out of the draft to pass.....
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Joe Craven
New member
Hey Dick, I'm still around. Gonna rebuild the Capri and improve the suspension since I don't know how I can get 5% more power (can't increase the compression anymore) so I'm going to have to improve the handling. Comp Adj might give me some hope with less weight since other cars have superior power and better suspension designs.
In regard to your comments, more compression increased combustion efficiency but if one has to run different fuel, that changes things too. Higher octane fuels often burn more slowly so given all other things, putting higher octane fuel often lowers power. In regards to the improvement, there is more improvement from example 9:1 to 10:1 than from 11:1 to 12:1.
Lighter flywheel - illegal and really doesn't do much at higher speeds where wind resistance becomes a factor. Most road racing is done at high speed in top 2 gears so the benefit isn't much. One might notice an improvement in slow corners coming out in 2nd gear.
In regard to your comments, more compression increased combustion efficiency but if one has to run different fuel, that changes things too. Higher octane fuels often burn more slowly so given all other things, putting higher octane fuel often lowers power. In regards to the improvement, there is more improvement from example 9:1 to 10:1 than from 11:1 to 12:1.
Lighter flywheel - illegal and really doesn't do much at higher speeds where wind resistance becomes a factor. Most road racing is done at high speed in top 2 gears so the benefit isn't much. One might notice an improvement in slow corners coming out in 2nd gear.
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Dick Elliott
Guest
JOE!
What you must remember is, road racing is nothing more than drag racing with turns. I was a drag racer for 25 years before I ever road raced. The two are very close in what you need in the engine. As long as your gaining speed a lite flywheel helps, and it sure helps under brakeing. As far as makeing your car faster, well that the problem we all have. Locked out distributor helps on a slow, multi turn track. Vertical air flow into the carb helps a bunch. E-mail me off line at [email protected] for the gray stuff. DICK
What you must remember is, road racing is nothing more than drag racing with turns. I was a drag racer for 25 years before I ever road raced. The two are very close in what you need in the engine. As long as your gaining speed a lite flywheel helps, and it sure helps under brakeing. As far as makeing your car faster, well that the problem we all have. Locked out distributor helps on a slow, multi turn track. Vertical air flow into the carb helps a bunch. E-mail me off line at [email protected] for the gray stuff. DICK
RSTPerformance
New member
Dick-
Not to get off subject, but I would completely disagree with you 100%. Ok now I have your attention. I agree motor wise perfomance gains might have the same modifications but in the overall picture no part of Road Racing is a drag race unless everyone racing hasn't a clue how to drive or has horribly ill handling cars.
For the newbies reading Road Races are won more by a driver/cars ability to carry speed through the turns (exit speed). If you can exit a turn at 10MPH faster than another car (both cars equal and have simple straight power curve) then you will also be going 10mph faster at the end of the straight. Do that in every turn and down every straight and you will have a winner.
I do agree that if both drivers are equal but the cars are not (IE: one car can gain a lot more than 10mph by the end of the straight) then sure the car with more power might win. It takes a lot HP to make up the difference though from bad or even mediocre driver and/or handling car.
Prime example: ITS cars (200hp?) run almost the same lap times as National AS cars (400hp?) unless it is a track that is all just straights. ITA cars run almost the same lap times as ITS cars (50hp less?).
My point: Don’t give newbie’s or our “thinking about cheating” friends this idea that “HP” cheating will get them victories. Granted this one driver that this post is about did gain a lot and a victory, but he was always a good driver driving a car without the potential to win at this track. I think more mid/front packers cheat to try and compensate for bad driving and/or poor handling cars to get a victory.
Raymond "Drag Racing is to Road Racing like Road Racing driving is to Rally driving" Blethen
[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 21, 2004).]
Not to get off subject, but I would completely disagree with you 100%. Ok now I have your attention. I agree motor wise perfomance gains might have the same modifications but in the overall picture no part of Road Racing is a drag race unless everyone racing hasn't a clue how to drive or has horribly ill handling cars.
For the newbies reading Road Races are won more by a driver/cars ability to carry speed through the turns (exit speed). If you can exit a turn at 10MPH faster than another car (both cars equal and have simple straight power curve) then you will also be going 10mph faster at the end of the straight. Do that in every turn and down every straight and you will have a winner.
I do agree that if both drivers are equal but the cars are not (IE: one car can gain a lot more than 10mph by the end of the straight) then sure the car with more power might win. It takes a lot HP to make up the difference though from bad or even mediocre driver and/or handling car.
Prime example: ITS cars (200hp?) run almost the same lap times as National AS cars (400hp?) unless it is a track that is all just straights. ITA cars run almost the same lap times as ITS cars (50hp less?).
My point: Don’t give newbie’s or our “thinking about cheating” friends this idea that “HP” cheating will get them victories. Granted this one driver that this post is about did gain a lot and a victory, but he was always a good driver driving a car without the potential to win at this track. I think more mid/front packers cheat to try and compensate for bad driving and/or poor handling cars to get a victory.
Raymond "Drag Racing is to Road Racing like Road Racing driving is to Rally driving" Blethen
[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 21, 2004).]
RSTPerformance
New member
Dave-
Yes the 2nd place ITB Omni was DQ'd last year for door panels. I have herd that their was more rumors to the story on that, but for what it is worth I thought it was very unfair.
If their was more to it then that is fine, tell us and don't make us feel bad for him. Don't know him that well (only met him last year) but he does post from time to time here.
Raymond
[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 21, 2004).]
Yes the 2nd place ITB Omni was DQ'd last year for door panels. I have herd that their was more rumors to the story on that, but for what it is worth I thought it was very unfair.
If their was more to it then that is fine, tell us and don't make us feel bad for him. Don't know him that well (only met him last year) but he does post from time to time here.
Raymond
[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 21, 2004).]
Joe Craven
New member
Dave and Raymond, is that the same car that got dq'd for polishing the outside of the intake manifold? Hmmm, back to the thread, protesting sounds very very difficult, both during and after.
There is NO such thing as "dynamic compression ratio." What you are refering to is volumetric efficiency.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
HIGHLY illegal in IT. It is expressly forbidden.
Hope you're not installing them in your cars.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
RSTPerformance
New member
Joe-
yes it is... that might be why some rumors floated around. 2 DQ's in 2 years.
Again, not sure what polishing the outside of the intake will do... but now it is legal, go figure.
I think he is runing in ITA now (? rumor) with the same car different motor(again rumor).
Raymond
yes it is... that might be why some rumors floated around. 2 DQ's in 2 years.
Again, not sure what polishing the outside of the intake will do... but now it is legal, go figure.
I think he is runing in ITA now (? rumor) with the same car different motor(again rumor).
Raymond
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Dick Elliott
Guest
I stand by my statement. EVERY TIME YOU COME OUT OF A CORNER, ITS A DRAG RACE TO THE NEXT CORNER. All else being the same if your down on power, you lose. What else would you call it? Clue me in.
Ron Earp
Administrator
Actually there is such a thing as dynamic compression ratio. Could be you were assuming that when I mention cams in my post I was referring to cams changing the dynamic compression ratio but this is not the case nor what I intended.
The static compression ratio, as I am sure you are aware, can simply be calculated by determining the combustion chamber volume, gasket thickness, etc. This has nothing to do with engine condition, ring sealing, etc.
Dynamic compression is different. An engine might have a compression ratio of 9.5:1 when measured by cc'ing, but, with out of round cylinders, out of round pistons, or poor sealing rings the dynamic compression ratio when assembled and running might be considerably less.
Some folks like to bundle things such as cylinder filling etc. into dynamic compression ratio but I do not agree with this definition. To me, these things come under volumetric efficiency.
Ron
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited October 22, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited October 22, 2004).]
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Tom Blaney
Guest
Ray, your all wrong here period. Shane is NOT A GOOD DRIVER!
I have raced him before and he is not the caliber of Anthony, Ray, Rich, or a lot of mid pack drivers (I learn a lot of this because I keep spinning to the back of the pack and have to flog my way up front).
Here is why he is not a good driver. A good driver respects his competition, he understands the value of hard work and the need to come to the track with a LEGAL car. A good driver knows how to get the most out of what is defined by the rules and what is in the other 99% of cars on the track. A good driver can leave the track in 1st or 35th place knowing that he/she did the best they can with what they had, and the 35th driver beat the 36th driver on talent not unfair cheating.
A good driver builds a complete racing package, that means that he brings a safe car to the track, brings the mental stability to accept the consequences of his/her actions (be it cheating, or crashing or winning) and will apply it to everything from parking in the paddock to thanking the corner workers.
A good driver is respected in the eyes of his/her competitors, because they can respect him for his talents, not his underhanded sneaky rule bending attempts to kick the other guys ass.
So if you compile this list together, Shane does not get a passing grade, and in my eyes (and I hope the other 99%) of drivers demonstrates why we did what we did to protest him and protect our own efforts at being a good driver that is respected by their competitors.
Unfortunatly Shane didn't get the penalty that he rightly deserved, but fortunatly he has lost the respect of the other 99% of drivers who have put in the sweat equity to become good drivers.
Ron, dynamic compression ratio is one of those Internet fantasies that keeps getting repeated often enough that it becomes "common knowledge" even though there is no such thing.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
RSTPerformance
New member
Ok to clarify a couple things.... for me
My original post about Shane and his engine builder had a bit of sarcasm in it. Obviously I think that Shane new his car was illegal (he was super fast). So I think that it is absolutely wonderful that the protest was made. I support all of you (who protested) 100%.
I don't even think I know who Shane is so please do not get confused and think that I like him, or don't like him. But in Shane’s support we all have friends that we know have cheated.
As far as Shane’s driving, I agree it is a complete package to make a driver, but I was only talking about his driving skills. I still do feel he drives well. I only want to stress to others thinking of cheating that even if you cheat you will still need to physically drive well to win. In other terms, if you are cheating and you are not winning well then not only do I think you suck because you are cheating, but I also think you suck at driving, thus you really really suck as a driver.
Is that a little bit clearer?
If not here it is again:
This post might encourage some people to cheat. We all bitch about how rare it is that someone (or a group of people) gets up the courage, $$$, and knowledge to actually make a major protest such as the one discussed here. Granted this post shows haw a "bad guy" got caught, but it also shows all the issues that prevent people from making protest or having a successful protest. I would like people to realize one simple thing; even if you cheat you still need to driver well to win, so it really isn't worth it. Just have fun and use your driving skills to win the race whether it is for 1st or 34th.
Raymond
[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 22, 2004).]
My original post about Shane and his engine builder had a bit of sarcasm in it. Obviously I think that Shane new his car was illegal (he was super fast). So I think that it is absolutely wonderful that the protest was made. I support all of you (who protested) 100%.
I don't even think I know who Shane is so please do not get confused and think that I like him, or don't like him. But in Shane’s support we all have friends that we know have cheated.
As far as Shane’s driving, I agree it is a complete package to make a driver, but I was only talking about his driving skills. I still do feel he drives well. I only want to stress to others thinking of cheating that even if you cheat you will still need to physically drive well to win. In other terms, if you are cheating and you are not winning well then not only do I think you suck because you are cheating, but I also think you suck at driving, thus you really really suck as a driver.
Is that a little bit clearer?
If not here it is again:
This post might encourage some people to cheat. We all bitch about how rare it is that someone (or a group of people) gets up the courage, $$$, and knowledge to actually make a major protest such as the one discussed here. Granted this post shows haw a "bad guy" got caught, but it also shows all the issues that prevent people from making protest or having a successful protest. I would like people to realize one simple thing; even if you cheat you still need to driver well to win, so it really isn't worth it. Just have fun and use your driving skills to win the race whether it is for 1st or 34th.
Raymond
[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 22, 2004).]
Ron Earp
Administrator
George, I'm not sure what the internet says about dynamic compression. If I made the term up, so be it, but I don't think you can argue that the measured/calculated compression of the motor is the same as the compression the motor acheives under running conditions, hence, dynamic compression. Maybe I should have used actual or practical compression.
I'll read what the "internet" terms as dynamic compression for interests sake. But, I stand by my opinion that you can increase the compression 1.00000000 points by milling and running the numbers, but what you see in real life will vary from what you calculate due to the items I listed and more.
I apologize for digressing on this thread and I'll stay out to let you fellows continue on the original path.
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited October 22, 2004).]
I'll read what the "internet" terms as dynamic compression for interests sake. But, I stand by my opinion that you can increase the compression 1.00000000 points by milling and running the numbers, but what you see in real life will vary from what you calculate due to the items I listed and more.
I apologize for digressing on this thread and I'll stay out to let you fellows continue on the original path.
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited October 22, 2004).]
Renaultfool
New member
FYI Dynamic Compression I don't know but I used to race a Datsun Roadster and in the factory shop manual, that I still have, it lists the "Max Exploding Pressure at 711.2 lb/in2". I never figured out how to use that important piece of data for anything useful.
Knestis, glad to see that you too once raced a fine French car. Nice photo.
Knestis, glad to see that you too once raced a fine French car. Nice photo.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Keep in mind that "dynamic compression" which is apparently influenced by parts tolerances and wear, is in effect on a stock engine as well as one with high compression parts.
So, while the parts might not actually acheive the compression that a static reading would indicate, neither will a stock or legal engine.
The net/net is close, or the same.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
So, while the parts might not actually acheive the compression that a static reading would indicate, neither will a stock or legal engine.
The net/net is close, or the same.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Volumetric efficiency will have far more influence on cylinder pressures in an operating engine than anything else in a reasonably healthy engine. Prior to the combustion event of course. Ignite the mixture sufficiently early and that will have a significant effect on max pressure during the combustion event.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
[This message has been edited by Geo (edited October 24, 2004).]
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
[This message has been edited by Geo (edited October 24, 2004).]