and it’s all bullshit………

gran racing said:
I can’t believe that some of you actually find this so unreasonable. Should regions hold money aside and wait for you to submit a refund request months after the event? Come on.
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Care to clarify, Dave? My impression - and my beef with the system - is hitting you up for money up front then charnging you a cancellation fee if you cancel before the event (or within a reasonable time after the event).

If you are saying you can get 100% refund if you cancel your entry within 7-10 days (or whatever) after the event (though I always contact the registrar immediately afterward - if not before - and I prefer the "enter online and pay at the track" options) then I agree with you. With rare exception, if an event requires a pay-in-advance with an online pre-entry then I will almost always enter at the track and pay the late fee.

Please clarify, Dan and Dave. - GA
 
My impression - and my beef with the system - is hitting you up for money up front then charnging you a cancellation fee if you cancel before the event (or within a reasonable time after the event).
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I've never seen this be the case including the IT Fest. In fact, the Cincy region even agreed to waive the late entry fee. If there are regions charging a cancellation fee before or within a reasonable time after the event, I'd absolutely agree that would be wrong.
 
Just another point to consider....The DC Region provides meals for you and your crew on Saturday as part of your entry fee. Negotiations with the caterer are made well in advance of the race for a headcount of XXX. Last minute additions are at a differrent rate. Cancellation of your entry doesn't change what the caterer is paid for the left over meals.
Regards,
Chuck
 
gran racing said:
If there are regions charging a cancellation fee before or within a reasonable time after the event, I'd absolutely agree that would be wrong.
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I read the entry for the RA race I attended earlier this year again. The cancellation date was the Wed before the event. Any cancellation after that would be charged $25 (refund amount would be $25 less than the entry).

I think that is a fair date for circumstances that are the choice of the entrant (something came up, family obligations, looks like rain (pussies), etc.). However, this gives no wiggle room for circumstances beyond the control of the entrant (trailer breaks on the way to the track, a dump truck runs over your tow vehicle on the way, etc.).

Judge for yourself. I still like the pre-register online, pay at the track when you arrive.
 
gran racing said:
If there are regions charging a cancellation fee before or within a reasonable time after the event, I'd absolutely agree that would be wrong.
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I thought that was what we were talking about? Dan's original post was referring to a cancellation fee. In the DC Region it works this way - you have up until 9pm Friday before the event to withdraw with no penalty; if you cancel after Friday evening you pay a $50 fee unless you come to the track, register, and then withdraw. If you haven't withdrawn by noon the first business day after the event you forfeit your entire entry fee.

Chuck, yes I understand what you're saying, but if our region is paying $50 per person for those meals we're getting screwed royally. This is a penalty, plain and simple. The registration/withdrawl is all done online, so the clerical work (done mostly by volunteers, right?) is minimal...the actual cost to the region for a late withdrawl can't be more than $10, and that is probably a high estimate.
 
My experience with the late fees...

I signed up for an event online, had the check to mail in my car...and there it stayed. I noticed it on my way to the office one day...and after the penalty day. I contacted the registrar and explained that I signed up, check stayed in my car and that I would drive it to the registrars house that night. I was told 'not necessary, just drop it in the mail to me'. I did so.

At the event, I found the registrar in T&S, brought some cookies and complimented the registrar on how great the entry process went in front of all of the registrars friends. I didn’t pay the late fee.


I withdrew from an event at the event. I don't know what the policy was other than I signed a form that said I wasn't on the track and I am bailing out while talking about my overheating sob story. The original check amount, less the worker donation, was sent to me. I didn't pay a late fee.

I suspect that attitude has a lot to do with it.
 
I was going to stay out of this because I don't really agree with Late Fees and Cancellation Fees, but we HAVE put them in our Supps (for Atlanta Region events) in the past.

When we first implemented Late Fees (and the language is "MAY be assessed") it was because some folks (the same ones each time) were abusing the system and ALWAYS registering at the track. Not only is this a drain on the Registration and T&S staff, but it also can affect group make-up as well. Quite simply, you registering early gives us more time to plan adequately. I will also note that Atlanta Region does not deposit checks for our Road Atlanta events until after the event is over, so there is no penalty for registering early.

By adding the "may be assessed" language, we give our registrars the authority to "penalize" the jackasses that perpetually show up at the late window demanding that they get special treatment. To date, I'm not sure they've ever done so but at least now they COULD if they feel it's warranted.

For the Barber event we added a $150 Late Cancellation fee for the 2008 event. It rained on Saturday at the 2007 event and we ended up refunding over $10,000 in entry fees from people that were already at the track but decided not to go out in the rain. The feeling was folks might be more reluctant to withdraw if they had skin in the game. For 2009 I reduced that to $50, and even though it rained on Saturday (again) we only had about 30 drivers (of 180) choose not to go out. Hopefully I can convince the PTB to drop it altogether in 2010, but again the idea is to keep folks from deciding to not show up because they suddenly find a need to rearrange their sock drawer.

Again, we don't assess either fee in the case of truly unexpected circumstances - it's really just there to give some leverage against those jackasses that show up with bad attitudes.
 
My personal opinion is that if you're at the track and decide not to go out solely because it's raining then you shouldn't get any of your money back. It's understood that we race in the rain. You should show up ready to do so. If you decide not to go out, fine, but I don't think you should expect your money back. Of course, that's hard to determine.

I have no issues with the cancellation penalty. If you can't figure out whether or not you're going to be at the race the Friday before the race and go to the website and withdraw your entry then you should get a penalty. Stuff can always happen on the way to the track or life events can occur and, as has been said, I think if you explain your situation to the registrar you will not get a penalty. If you are just unorganized or lazy then you deserve a penalty.

David
 
I don't know how other divisions/regions do it. We (Lone Star) do not charge late fees. We give a discount for early entry.

My take on cancellation fees. If the fees are not listed on the entry forms then they cannot be collected. The fees are listed to discourage entrants from dropping out on a whim at the last minute. However, I do not remember ever being charged a late witdrawal/cancellation fee for any event where I had a valid reason for the withdrawl. BTW, a forecast of rain for the weekend and being to cheap to buy rain tires is not a valid reason in my book.

On our home track we have the option to run several track configurations. If we have enough drivers pre-register we will make sure we have enough workers to run the more desirable long course. Which means we have to put more EVs on the track contract at added cost. etc. so forth and so on. And, Spec Miata, if you don't want to run in the IT group get your entries in early. When the Chief sees a large SM entry list he may not be so quick to combine groups.

Our board meetings are open to the membership. We beg members with ideas on how to make the events better to show up. Do they? NO!

Bitching on a forum is not going to change anything. Don't like the way things are being managed quit whinning, get active, and go run for a position the the board. Then you can bring hope and change to YOUR club and make things run the way you think it should be done.
 
While I agree that cancellation fees are troubling and I dislike them, I encourage those of you that don't like them to get involved with a racing region and offer to help out with the racing program. I know we could use the help.

That said, we are working NOW for a race to be held June 2010. We will incur expenses prior to June that will need to be paid. We have to decide at what level of participation we can break even and then HOPE that we can get that number of entries in a down economy. Part of that decision is made based upon the numbers of pre-registered entrants. If you have any idea to help us plan the event and gauge how many drivers/cars will show up, I am all ears.

I like the discount for early registration. I also like the fact that we will continue to not cash checks for no-shows but it sure would be nice for them to notify us during normal registration times that they are not coming. Makes run group choices much easier.

As a club and a racing region officer, we have a financial obligation to our members to "break even" on an event. Our BoD has decided that "break even" might mean going in the hole every now and then in order to further the program(s) of the club but we cannot afford a multi thousand dollar loss.

Track rental is high dollar these days and every racing region has felt the pinch of the economy. I have read/heard the number Chuck mentioned above $34,000.00 for the weekend at Barber. I know what our expenses are and how big of a job it is planning to host a race. We will continue to try and host the BEST race we can given the circumstances and will try to control costs as much as we can without penalizing no-show drivers.

Paul
 
erlrich said:
This is a penalty, plain and simple. The registration/withdrawl is all done online, so the clerical work (done mostly by volunteers, right?) is minimal...the actual cost to the region for a late withdrawl can't be more than $10, and that is probably a high estimate.
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I completely agree and have spoken to our R.E. about this extensively. Should he be relelected to the BoD this fall, he has promised to eradicate the these truly punative fees and make registering for WDCR events more customer-friendly.

The region pays a 3% credit card processing fee for each transaction--registration and withdrawal. That's $6.75 per road race registration (far less for solo entries) and $6.75 for each person who withdraws (if they paid by C.C.) Over the course of many road race and auto-x events that the region runs that comes to both a lot of lost good will and a lot of lost revenue each year.
 
My hats off to all the regions that have come to realize how wrong these penelties are to a already beaten down enterant who much reluctantly withdrew from an event. On the same hand if there are legimate costs associated with the withdrawal I'm hoping that common sense will prevail and the regions should use their discretion to cover their costs. I'm sure I can speak for most everyone in saying the last thing we racers want is to burden our regions or other regions will these costs such as credit card fees. I might even accept a $10.00 to $20.00 donation to their workers fund, as long as it goes to the workers. I don't want to see cancellation fees or penelties.

Thanks for eveyone's opinion. THE SCCA IS US AND WE ARE THE SCCA.
 
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My region is fairly user friendly about such issues and I will take some credit for that. I have been arguing for less hassles and reduction of silly rules in the supps at road racing board meetings for years and yet there are often people that want to add something like that. We had a proposal for a cancellation fee just this last winter, and it came from people I respect. Fortunately it failed.
The economics of running a race event is very dependent of number of entries. There is a fairly high fixed cost and only a bit of variable cost. A swing of 20 cars can make a pretty big difference in the bottom line. Given that I always figured that as a region you want to be the one that is easy to race with. Even if 10 percent of your driver pool thinks like Dan it can have a big effect on your profitability.
I enter way ahead and pay at the window. If I have to mail a check ahead of time I think twice before I enter that race.
 
the IT Spectacular weekend is one of my favorite races and when i register i understand the rules and the risks. i know that when i have traveled on vacations, i accept the risk on some flight cancellations and book the cheap ones and i have at times bought cancellation insurance for overseas flights.

similarly, i read the policy and decide if the risk is worth it.

not the best analogy but i have had tequila tonight.

anyways, the policies were quite straightforward. my personal M.O. for this is to register on line and send a check in the mail. this way the registration is easier and i know that the check will not be cashed until after the event (at least i have never had a check cashed prior to an event).

i don't like the online credit card payment cause i know the charge is hitting me right then and it is costing the region more than the stamp will cost me.

a few years ago the fort wayne region cancelled a race (brat bash? at Gingerman) due to the low number of entries. there was something like a $5,000 to $7,000 cancellation fee. there was something like less than 10 entries pre-registered. did anyone see if fort wayne had a race this year?

the regions commit a very large sum of money hoping we will be there. fort wayne made a very difficult decision in that they picked the way that was going to cost the region the least amount of money (cancel early or pay the full load and not have the entries to cover it)

i can understand that some would say that you have to err on the side of the customer and some will say the customers should be responsible.

since this year's IT SPECtacular had a $50 late fee after 7/21 and a $50 cancellation fee after 7/29, i really see no difference in "costs" of registering and then a late cancellation vs. paying the late fee at the gate. either way, you are out $50.

personally, since i was committing $150 in fuel to get to and from the track, cancelling and losing the $50 fee would be better than driving to the track and having to cancel.
 
What really ticked me off was that I used my credit card for and entry fee and and not a fine or penalty! Any region that has to use these tactics instead of charging the appropriate entry fees is not anywhere I want to race no matter how big they think their race is!
 
pitbull113 said:
Down here in florida if you sign up early and mail your check they 1) don't cash your check until the event has been run. 2) if you don't show or do show and your car does not make it on the track they shred your check or return it. if you pay with a credit card your card gets credited.

The event was going to be held regardless of whether i signed up or not no reason to keep my money if i can't make the race.
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And I have used that a couple of times, even on a test day the day before a race. That has saved me the money to fix the problems right and make the next race, and want to come back for more.
 
Why should we raise the entry fees on every entrant to cover the cost incurred by the few who want to pull out on a whim at the last minute? It is the same drivers all the time that do this. Abuse the system often enough and things start to happen to prevent the abuse.

If you have a valid reason for withdrawing take your case to the region and ask for a waiver of the fees. If you don't and decide to stay home because your cousin's girl friend's sister has a hang nail pay the fee and quit whining.

Don't like that way the region is operating get active to change it. Run for a seat on the board.
 
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