Who said IT is in decline? I don't think that's the case here in the SE. Car counts may be down for all classes, but that's more due to the economy than anything.
David
August 2010 Fastrack
- Thread starter GTIspirit
- Start date
Who said IT is in decline? I don't think that's the case here in the SE. Car counts may be down for all classes, but that's more due to the economy than anything.
David
Rabbit07
New member
You need to look outside
Sebring 9 entries
VIR 9 entries
Glen 19! entries
Grattan 8 entries
Mid-0 4 entries
June Sprints 8 entries
These are just a few that I know.
It's a bigger club than just your division. I have traveled coast to coast racing and each division has different classed that are strong. No need to get all touchy.
i expected that response chris. have you guys done any research to find out where those entries came from?
my money says 80% or more are actually cars from other classes.
and furthermore, don't give me any garbage about "it's a bigger club than just my division." i'd go so far as to say that anyone who supports STL, or ST as a category at all as it exists today are the ones who need to get some perspective and take a larger view, not just looking at the entries in their specific class of interest. look at total entries, memberships, and licenses in the club as a whole.
i'm not touchy, i'm just sick of the horrendous leadership and direction the club is being taken in. and keep in mind, i'm one of the guys that DEFENDED the CRB when they booted out most of the ITAC last year.
my money says 80% or more are actually cars from other classes.
and furthermore, don't give me any garbage about "it's a bigger club than just my division." i'd go so far as to say that anyone who supports STL, or ST as a category at all as it exists today are the ones who need to get some perspective and take a larger view, not just looking at the entries in their specific class of interest. look at total entries, memberships, and licenses in the club as a whole.
i'm not touchy, i'm just sick of the horrendous leadership and direction the club is being taken in. and keep in mind, i'm one of the guys that DEFENDED the CRB when they booted out most of the ITAC last year.
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Rabbit07
New member
That is exactly what I said in my first post you bashed me on. They are mostly IT and Spec Miata. These are the cars thay fit in STL.
X
xr4racer
Guest
Life does not revolve around your division. Chris is right, STU regardless of where the cars came from has had 251 entries, which is tied for 9th in participation with FP. This is more entries so far than T2, AS, T1, SSB, SSC and GTL etc. Your division has only had 13 STU entries but they have had only 380 entries total. NE has had 67 out of 1088 total. No matter where the cars have come from the entries have been steady and the participants can go to the runoffs which was not possible because IT is a regional only class.
Hopefully this is one more step in the long time goal of haveing 16 or so classes by consolidating the 29 existing classes. ST will be gone and consolidated with T1 so the proposed STL will again make 29.
matt
Hopefully this is one more step in the long time goal of haveing 16 or so classes by consolidating the 29 existing classes. ST will be gone and consolidated with T1 so the proposed STL will again make 29.
matt
Who and the hell wants that?? ST will/has increased that. Though only based on my opinion I would rather drive a slow car well and get beat, then a fast car racing myself on the track. If I wanted to race my self, I could save money and go SOLO or TT.
Like I have mentioned before. I do like the idea of ST, but targeting IT drivers to go national racing is dilution. It has worked to it's advantage for some. (know that Steve E. and his wife share the ITS/STU car on weekends)
I don't think IT is on the decline.. last time I raced daytona (8/2009) there was close 90 IT cars... at Daytona of all places. There has been growth in ITS atleast in the SE, and their are a few people have taken a break from IT do to the political side of IT. Which in my opinion is the only negative. The ITAC/CRB issues of recent will be something that will be hard to forget. It fustrated me to no end. However if an agreement is made and corrections are made things will continue on. If not then I will be going into ST as well. not becuase I wanted to go national racing, but becuase I am tired of driving a misclassed heavy car that is hard on hubs, and brakes.
what the hell kind of business strategy is this?
it absolutely matters where the cars came from. if all you're doing is changing letters on fenders without increasing membership/entries, what good is it to you?
you may think that this is part of a class consolidation plan, but i've never seen that actually happen. so unless the addition of STL (and all of ST) is tied directly to the elimation of multiple other classes, i'm 100% against it.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
1. It's not diluting if they are double dipping
2. It's not diluting if Regional racers are ADDING Nationals to their schedule because of a new class
It most certainly IS diluting if this class is pulling from Regional IT racing. BUT...what is that telling you? It could mean that there is dissatisfaction with regional racing schedules, IT rules, or a desire to go National racing.
If STU class is 10th on the most wanted list, figure out why. Up here in the NE I can tell you it is most certainly because some IT cars and more SM's are double and triple dipping at National/Pro IT weekends.
Can anyone think of a car that would compete with a 250whp, 2600lb (with driver) S2000 (using that weight because that is as light as I think they can get-sih)
2. It's not diluting if Regional racers are ADDING Nationals to their schedule because of a new class
It most certainly IS diluting if this class is pulling from Regional IT racing. BUT...what is that telling you? It could mean that there is dissatisfaction with regional racing schedules, IT rules, or a desire to go National racing.
If STU class is 10th on the most wanted list, figure out why. Up here in the NE I can tell you it is most certainly because some IT cars and more SM's are double and triple dipping at National/Pro IT weekends.
Can anyone think of a car that would compete with a 250whp, 2600lb (with driver) S2000 (using that weight because that is as light as I think they can get-sih)
seckerich
New member
You are correct with that. We double dipped the ITS car in STU both last year and early this year. Only place we could go because the stock tank is not legal for EP because it is behind the axle. I plan to run the RX8 in STU National as it is properly classed there and just change shocks and glass/lexan for ITR in regionals. The 8" wheel width is stupid if they want IT cars to run. Not going to have multiple sets of 17" wheels to change over. Need to match maximum wheel width in IT to get crossover. That was constructive suggestion for lurking committee members.
I doubt ST/STL will hurt IT, but actually grow some with the double dipping. I still have more fun with regionals, much more laid back.
X
xr4racer
Guest
The good is you have a class that attracts new builds and NASA cars that the younger people are into. I cannot tell you how many times people are interested in SCCA and they can not believe they have to get rid of the 17" wheels, wings, engine swaps etc. to race in IT. They immediately lose interest and go to NASA or just track days. If this happens maybe some of these cars will come to race with us.
This could have all been avoided if IT was granted national status or club racing did away with the national/regional format. The powers that be will get what they want even if it takes an end around to get it.
Not to change the subject but a bigger problem in growing the club is that the licensing procedure sucks, some divisions only have 1 school a year because of the extravagant cost and low turnout. Some how this could be incorporated into a regular weekend
matt
This could have all been avoided if IT was granted national status or club racing did away with the national/regional format. The powers that be will get what they want even if it takes an end around to get it.
Not to change the subject but a bigger problem in growing the club is that the licensing procedure sucks, some divisions only have 1 school a year because of the extravagant cost and low turnout. Some how this could be incorporated into a regular weekend
matt
JoshS
New member
You know, I've been saying that the weight assignment isn't fair because of the existence of the 2200 lb. S2000, but you have a point, it probably can't get that light.
However, based on a couple of ITE-built S2000s out here in SFR, I'm pretty sure that under 2500 w/driver will be reachable.
That does make things a little bit more fair, I guess.
I have had the same experiences. I cna't say for certain how many of the turned-off would have actually showed up at driver's school, but I know of 2 cars right now that are but a manifold swap away from being proper STL cars and they WANT to go racing.
when I say IT is in decline I don't mean car counts, I mean the quality of the racing. I actually should have said "ITB" because it seems that where the bulk of the stubborn prejudice is in the CRB, and the widest breadth of technological ages is. it's the hardest place to level out and the one most in need.
I'm so turned off by the CRBs treatment of ITB that I started tossing around plans to move my car to STU with a jap toyota 2.oL - only to have that idea crushed by this latest rule proposal and replaced with a place to run the car that is more affordable than STU but still allows the things IT will never (and should never in the current form) allow for the car to make the power it needs to run with the front ITB cars. this is where the idea of getting in the way of another's race comes in, and we all just have to be aware of ourselves and our surroundings when it comes to that. further, I could just swap engine families and have somethign that is at an achievable weight, will make good HP from a supported engine family ina car that I want to drive and probobly even be mid-pack runoffs competitive assuming the class takes off and gets built-to. mayeb a front runner if not.
why shouldn't I be attracted to that? - guys get more track time in a weekend with their IT cars, get to run nats if they want to, can finally take their car to a place where it might be competitive if it's one of the eligable IT tweeners, and lets a bunch of new faces bring the cars they WANT to build, the things they understand as normal off of the street and on to the track.
win win win.
Our S2k hits the scales at 2375lbs when getting on the track.
I'd expect with the addition of the kraftwerks it will gain 25 to 40lbs.
this is lunacy.
i don't believe for one second that the barrier to entry of swapping a manifold (or whatever insignificant part) is keeping people from racing. they may SAY that, but if that's too big of a hurdle for them to overcome, i can't imagine that once they get into the REAL logistics of going racing that they'd actually go through with it if we allowed said manifold. racing school, medical exams, roll cages, annual inspections, membership/license fees for seemingly nothing, etc etc....
if people really do want to go racing, some stupid little rule like a washer bottle or having to swap back to a stock intake manifold is not going to stop them. the converse is true as well, allowing removal of a WB, or alternate IMs is not going to bring them in by the truckload either.
what this really amounts to is ego, and the gradeschool/autocross mentality of "everybody's a winner." some people are attracted to a smaller field with less competition, an easier win, or easier national championship.
others like to ya know......race.
i don't believe for one second that the barrier to entry of swapping a manifold (or whatever insignificant part) is keeping people from racing. they may SAY that, but if that's too big of a hurdle for them to overcome, i can't imagine that once they get into the REAL logistics of going racing that they'd actually go through with it if we allowed said manifold. racing school, medical exams, roll cages, annual inspections, membership/license fees for seemingly nothing, etc etc....
if people really do want to go racing, some stupid little rule like a washer bottle or having to swap back to a stock intake manifold is not going to stop them. the converse is true as well, allowing removal of a WB, or alternate IMs is not going to bring them in by the truckload either.
what this really amounts to is ego, and the gradeschool/autocross mentality of "everybody's a winner." some people are attracted to a smaller field with less competition, an easier win, or easier national championship.
others like to ya know......race.
I thought the same, Gregg. Then, as I thought about it a little more....are there any other ITR cars that have a displacement that falls within the STL guidelines, or are they all STU/O? In other words, is this just a way of saying "we don't want ITR cars or their drivetrains showing up in STL?"
JoshS
New member
I was referring to full engine swaps with aftermarket intakes - typical honda stuff because the oe GSR manifold is not as good as the type R stuff and there are aftermarket clones.
there are plobobly a ton of people out there who want their own little playground. I know we have that in the local SPU class. but I honestly see ST as a place for common modern hot rods to go racing. unswapping a B series honda to its original 12V 1.5L glory doesn't make sense to a lot of the peopel OUT THERE with stuff that is pretty close to legal in ST. what we need to do is start persuading those guys to come play in our sandbox now that we have a real place for them to run. it WILL add to the overall car counts, and it WILL force the midpack slow IT cars to rethink using ST for a trophy becasue they are woefully outclassed in IT as they will be far worse of is ST.
we're just going to have to agree to disagree, and wait and see what comes of it. in the mean time, write letters with your ideas about that to do with the proposed rules or new proposals and hope that the STAC and CRB agree with you. it's not always fair pool but it's all we have other than bickering here and wasting our employers' money.
erlrich
Super Moderator
I think it's just their way of saying "we will give you a chance to race your IT car at the national level, but we will make damn sure you have zero chance of winning against a real ST car".
It still blows my mind that those idiots thing ANY IT CAR belongs in STO.
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