Beetle in ITC

Scott & GRJ

How about VIR in october this year?
Short course that way it is new to both of you and there are no new bugs to get in the way.

Kirk

Your right, but you have to admit this is funny.

[This message has been edited by Super Swift (edited July 28, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by Geo:

The NB is classified into ITC. If it proves to be a class killer we can either add weight (in the first year w/o PCAs or later with PCAs) or we can reclassify it to ITB. At least it's not an E36 that cannot be reclassed upward.



Not many cars have ever been moved up. Not even the CRXsi in ITA. It seems it would be a better idea to give the benefit of the doubt to the guys with an actual investment in ITC cars, than to take a chance on putting an "e36" VW in ITC and killing another good IT class.


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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series
 
Originally posted by 16v:
geez... was this thread imported from the vwvortex forums? poo-flinging is putting it nicely

I usually don't consider myself a lurker, but this is amusing.
smile.gif


BTW, we just got the wife a NB ragtop--she had the original Beetle a few decades ago and just had to get the new one. While test driving, I got my hands on the Turbo stick and was rather impressed.

We don't want to add turbos to this discussion, do we?
wink.gif


Gregg
 
Originally posted by badal:
Not many cars have ever been moved up. Not even the CRXsi in ITA. It seems it would be a better idea to give the benefit of the doubt to the guys with an actual investment in ITC cars, than to take a chance on putting an "e36" VW in ITC and killing another good IT class.



Ah, but it has happened. At least the possibility is open.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
George-can you name the car? I bet it was before your time in IT.
And moving a car up would take 5 years.

"not enough cars-insufficient data"

"cars not fully prepared, lacking data"

"unfair to move this many fully prepared cars to a class they would not be competitive in"

ITC has the most variety of potential winners. There are no current class killers. Why upset the apple cart?

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series
 
Al,

ITB Accord to ITA. Knee-jerk reaction to a top prepared car with a now-Pro driver. Look for that car to be back in ITB...

If we thought the NB would upset the apple cart, we wouldn't have classed it there. ITC is our version of a 'vintage' class. Nothing has happened in there for years. We think this car freshen the choices while NOT upsetting the AC.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Ah, but it has happened. At least the possibility is open.</font>

it happened with the ITB Accord being moved up, which was a farse, and wasn't the possibility for such moves and adjustments the whole reason for the move to PCA's?


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Richard Floyd
'86 Acura Integra LS #90
SCCA ITA / NASA ECHC H5
 
Originally posted by Catch22:
Lets look at in in IT "roll across the scale" terms.

Stock NB Curb Weight - 2785
Driver - 180
Cage - 100 (conservative estimate I'm guessing)

That gives us 3065lbs for a race legal stock Beetle with driver. So if it loses the 350lbs Mr. Jones says it can lose we're at (OH MY GOD ITS UNBELIEVEABLE!!!)... 2715lbs!!!
OK Scott I'll accept your figures. (Except of course a good IT chromemoly cage with underdash and aft brace horizontals and NASCAR bars comes in at 60 lbs., and I believe the average weight for drivers is 165 lb.) But let's take your figures. And I want to be sure I understand you perfectly: given 350 lbs extracted weight, the NB will come in at 2715 lbs race weight. I'll concede all I have conjectued if this is true and ask: If a 1998-99 2.0 NB can weigh within 75 lbs of a 25-year old ITB Volvo (race weight 2640-2780)why can't the NB be competitive in ITB?

And if you are going to tell me the Volvo makes 160 Hp and the VW can only make 140 Hp tops, I'm going to say that both ratings are conjecture and you need to prove them before you put the VW in C, not after.

And I am attempting to remain even-tempered on this (I need to conserve my energy to flap Scott's doors this Fall), but I must ask what do you guys have against my Fiesta? And I really resent that you suggest my only motive is selfish - I don't pretend absolute altruism, but I am interested in the integrity of the whole class, not just my car. As I said, I and my car will become completely outdated pretty soon, inevitable, but not without a fight.

And I must refer back to Jake's rub that he would be glad to add 1000 lbs to the Fiesta. Fine Jake but be sure to mandate a 2.0 with overhead cam, fuel injection, oversized brakes, etc., etc. But then of course, my Fiesta would then be a B car.
GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 28, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 28, 2004).]
 
I think the shots at your Fiesta by some were jokes. The ITAC cares about the competitive balance of all the classes and considers such when making all decisions.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I think the shots at your Fiesta by some were jokes. The ITAC cares about the competitive balance of all the classes and considers such when making all decisions.
AB

You know Andy, I'm beginning to believe you. But darn it, I think you've made a mistake on this one, and I just hate to see it have to run its course. I appreciate your efforts and believe it or not I appreciate your putting up with my comments. Good Racing.
GRJ
 
I really feel sorry for the ITAC. Really, I do. For years everyone has bitched that IT is so immensely screwed up and begged for improvement. Now, they attempt to do some groundbreaking stuff and all the knees jerk and people start yelling about apple carts tumbling downhill end over end. The AC just cant win.

I have an ITC car just like Jones and Bell, but the New Beetle thing doesn't bother me at all. Its not that I think I'm such a bad-ass that it won't matter to me, its that I realize that ITC has become a vintage class and things like this NEED to happen to keep it vital. So OK, they get lots of ITC cars at MARRS races, but thats not happening everywhere. I'll say it one last time, you can't look at one region and one track and call it a representative sample of ANYTHING for the whole club. This is why I brought up Jones' performance at VIR. Not to pick on his lap times, but to demonstrate this very valid point (that sometimes things look alot different when you leave your region). I had no itention of a pink slip match or poo flinging contest with him, but if he chooses to be so bold, fine.

As far as putting the Beetle in ITB... Why?
The A3 GTI shares most of the same parts (I think the drivetrain is exactly the same) and its (rightfully) in ITB at under 2400lbs. Its absolutely silly to class the beetle, with the same drivetrain but weighing 2700lbs, in the same class and expect anyone in their right mind to actually build one. And what the hell is the point of classing a car that nobody with 1/2 a brain would build??? Look at the 88-91 Honda Civic DX... There's about a billion of them out there with lots of racing support available, but its classed in ITA so nobody bothers to build one.
Get it?

The old ITAC would no doubt have thrown the Beetle into ITB without much thought, which would have been a total waste of an interesting, mass produced, easy to find (and find parts for) car.

How about another previous, similar example of this classing wastefulness and how critical it is to get the weight spec right...
The '94 to '99 Integra GSR COULD be a great ITS car. Mass produced, Honda reliability, HUGE aftermarket support, looks good and is fast. But after several years of classification there's still only a hand full of them in the whole country... Why???
2690lbs... Thats why.
This same car ran Grand Am cup at a weight of 2575. It runs in NASA at that same weight. So why has SCCA added 115lbs to the car?
Well, its certainly not because it would be a world beater. At 2575 it comes in at about the same p/w ratio as an RX-7 and well under an E36. Maybe the old AC just made a mistake? OR MAYBE they were afraid to upset the old apple cart, so they threw an extra 100lbs in the car so current ITS folks wouldn't bitch. Great, all that did was greatly hamstring what COULD be a nice, competitive car and cause very few people to build one. Who loses??? ITS loses, thats who loses.

So bring it on ITAC. Class all the 2.0 liter 2700lb cars you want in ITC and we'll hope people build them. If they do, and they actually upset the cart, then we'll write some "Accord letters" and see if we can get it moved to ITB. But I refuse to halt potential progress because I'm es'keered of that car. The car looks right on paper for the class and thats good enough for me (for now).

PS - It is 180lbs for a driver Jones, you have no idea how much cage a Beetle needs, and go ahead and add 10lbs for a fire system while you're nitpicking.
 
Originally posted by badal:
George-can you name the car? I bet it was before your time in IT.

The Accord.

I don't know if it was before my time in IT, but it was certainly before my time on the ITAC. I think the current ITAC has taken a very active role in trying to make IT a good place to race and to try to make a little more sense of the classifications. Perhaps you don't think so? But I think we've shown the willingness to do the right thing. We probably will not please everyone and we can't do everything we think needs to be done overnight. But even many of the most jaded critics of "the system" have said they are cautiously optimistic. That in itself is a victory I think.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
...I must ask what do you guys have against my Fiesta?

You lost me here. Why do you think anyone has anything against your Fiesta?

Originally posted by grjones1:
And I must refer back to Jake's rub that he would be glad to add 1000 lbs to the Fiesta.

I must confess. It wasn't Jake. It was me. I was teasing you because at the time you were going on about the weight difference between your car and the NB. Easy solution to the weight difference.
wink.gif


Seriously, this is all old ground and if you want to beat on me for the joke, fine. It was still a joke. I think everyone else realized it.

Just try to have at least a little faith in the current ITAC. If the NB runs roughshod over ITC I can't imagine we wouldn't do anything about it.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Darin,

I was asking to see the dyno data, etc. that you have on the 1.6 and 1.8 JH (Rabbit GTI) VW motors.

Scott,

It's certainly possible to get that much hp out of a 1.6 VW motor. The big question is, can you do it legally? Based on what Dick Shine has stated, it sure doesn't seem like it. The original European GTI's w/ the 1.6 made 110hp, stock.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Al,

ITB Accord to ITA. Knee-jerk reaction to a top prepared car with a now-Pro driver. Look for that car to be back in ITB...

Is Mr. Keane really a pro driver?
What is the delay in returning it to ITB?

If we thought the NB would upset the apple cart, we wouldn't have classed it there. ITC is our version of a 'vintage' class.

How about ITB? Just as vintage, maybe more so.

Nothing has happened in there for years. We think this car freshen the choices while NOT upsetting the AC.

Nothing has happened-so? We have stable classifications, not the dreaded class creep like ITS.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

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"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Darin,

I was asking to see the dyno data, etc. that you have on the 1.6 and 1.8 JH (Rabbit GTI) VW motors.

Bill, be reasonable. Do you think the very best builders of engines for every car share dyno charts with us?

I'm sorry to interject myself into this (but probably not as sorry as I'm going to be). It's just that we simply have to make assumptions. BTW, you do know we have a prominent VW competitor on the ITAC who can and will tell us when our assumptions are out of whack to the best of his knowledge?


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Intersting to listen to all you "experts" seriously debate this. I've watched this thread with some amusement but mostly it's depressing. So how come nobody knows or has pointed out that the NB engine/chassis is most decidedly not the same as the newly classified A3, but is totally Golf/Jetta IV.
The engine, although still 2L, is a completely different unit (AEG, replacing ABA). The block is nearly the same as the 1.8T block, sharing the same cambelt driven waterpump, etc. As to it's performance possibilities, I haven't a clue. I guess most of you don't either. Phil
 
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