Beetle in ITC

[gran racing]

I have a very, very hard time believing that a chip with a total stock car will provide a 20 hp gain. For that matter, a car that is fully prepped to IT rules. That’s a bunch of BS. Ummm yeah, the people who market the chip will probably advertise “up to” 20 hp gains. Deep down, you honestly can’t believe this can you?

At this point, I think that everyone has provided their feelings on the Beetle in ITC. We’re kinda going around in circles now, aren’t we?

Mr. Jones (I’m actually not being a jerk here), this decision has already been approved by the ITAC and you’ve already expressed your beliefs here. But it still needs to obtain approval by the board in August, so nothing is final. Maybe you and any other people that share your objection with the move should now focus on writing a well composed letter with supporting facts to the board. Get other racers to sign your petition. Not saying this will change things, but at it will be much more productive for you. Somehow I don’t think you’ll convince anyone on the ITAC board that they made a mistake. The reason for this really doesn’t matter.

Although I am getting a big kick out of reading all of this!

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

 

[grjones1]

Originally posted by gran racing:

Although I am getting a big kick out of reading all of this!

[/B]

Dave,
I appreciate your comments and advice and I'm at least happy that you have enjoyed the discussion.
GRJ

 

[JOESELLSVW]

Here's my two cents... I think tht this may be a mistake, but the board is prepared to fix a potential mistake by moving the car to B after it dominates C (if that does happen)we should take that as a good sign of progress in the way the board looks at IT. My personal view is that they'd like for people to build the cars and see what happens. I think this way because the A3 was in ITA and very few cars were built. Now with the car in B several cars are being built! Including Kirk's car as well as my own. New cars will me good for the class. To address the cost fator of the New Beetle several of the cars have been traded at my dealership in the four to five thousand dollar mark with 80k. Seems to me that this car could be put into IT trim for about $12,000. Not cheap, but building a "new" car that nobody has done before isn't either. JOE

 

[Catch22]

Mr. Jones,

OK, you are a terrible debater. Thats why you'll never win. You say things that make no sense, constantly contradict yourself, and generally babble incessantly. The chip on your shoulder is so big I'm sure its giving you back problems.

But all that aside, I started wondering how your little Fiesta rates against the current crop of ITC cars. So I did some research (the internet is a wonderful thing). First off, it looks like you spend at least 90% of your racing life running against the same guys over and over again at the same track (Summit Point). There's certainly nothing wrong with this, but its really not teaching you anything about how competitive you truly are and whats going on in the whole of the ITC world.
I did however see that you trekked to VIR earlier this year, where your best lap times were 2:35s and you finished well down in the SARRC/MARRS pack on both days. I'll note here that I ran consistent 2:29s in my Civic 3 weeks before you were there in nearly identical weather conditions. Finally, I'll note that while I was 6 seconds faster than you, I was still 2 seconds off the track record.

Maybe you were having mechanical problems?
Maybe you'd never been there before?
Maybe the track intimidated you?
Or maybe, when you wander away from MARRS at Summit Point you discover that you're really not all that competitive after all.

My point is not to pick on your performance at VIR. The point is that you appear to be standing on a box screaming that the Beetle will make your car uncompetitive when it seems that outside of the confines of the West Virginia mountains you are ALREADY not all that competitive.
C'mon... Seriously. With that kind of performance I'd lap you in an Enduro at VIR. You need to stop worrying about the Beetle and worry about me (or Vesa Silegren or Will Perry or Gareth Rebstock or Mark Senior) bringing our long time ITC classed Hondas up to Summit Point for some MARRS races.

Tell you what. Bring that Fiesta down to the ARRC and lets find out how competitive it really is against many of the best current ITC cars and drivers. Finish in the top 5 and I'll join you in the quest to keep the Beetle out of ITC. Finish where I think you'll finish and you just need to shut the hell up because all youre doing is arguing to keep a 25 year old car that is already uncompetitive... Competitive. Which is just plain stupid.

Scott, who realizes that 10 years from now, if ITC still exists and I'm still racing, that my current frontrunning Civic will likely NOT be competitive... And I'm OK with that because its inevitable.

 

[grjones1]

Scott (Who curiously refers to himself in the third person - have you been under any kind of psychiatric care?):
As to my debating prowess, I'll leave that to others to judge. But I really can't find any contradictions in what I've said. Enlighten me.

And I really don't think my record has much to do with these discussions, but I'll talk about it.
As far as my performance at VIR. You are right, not very good, but good enough for 2nd and 3rd MARRS finishes our last weekend there which is what I was looking for. And yes I do race predominantly at Summit, because it's close to home. (And I've finished in the top 5 of 30-car ITC fields for about 5 years.) I have taken 3rd at Lime Rock in an FP Sprite. Several 2nds and 3rds at Nelson Ledges in the same Sprite, and numerous top 5 finishes at Summit in a number of SS cars including a '75 R-5, 83' GTI, '84 GLH, and would you believe I hold a lap record at VIR in what was SSSC in a 914-2.0. I would offer as an excuse for present day times at VIR, that my Fiesta is really set up for Summit. But you have given me good reasons now to do better there.
As far as not having contended with the best in IT, I heartily disagree. I think the likes of Al Bell (whom I have never beaten), Andy Stapor, Dave Flinchbaugh, Mark Barracka, Dave Coleman, Danny Anderson, Lee Kaufman and others (all whom I have been fortunate to finish in front of at times) are as good as it gets. And of course I invite you to join us at Summit Point and see. You'll find first of all the fields are bigger (in C) and you'll have a little more traffic (composed of cars within .5 seconds of each other) to deal with in class than at VIR. My best time st Summit is 134:3 in the Fiesta. Let's see how close you get to that or me.
And if you think the best IT drivers only attend the ARRC, wait til you drive against this crowd.)

Now Scott you have told me to "shut the hell up. and F.. you." I don't recall using that language with anyone in this forum, but I'll tell you this: Bring on your car and your mouth I'll be glad to contend with both with my "uncompetitive" Fiesta and I fully intend to flap your doors. And Scott: Get Bent!
G. Robert Jones

 

[Catch22]

Not surprisingly you've typed up a long answer that didn't really answer anything. Alot of your reply, whether you understand it or not, actually agrees with my last post.

Leave Summit every now and again and run against some other people. I'm betting you'll discover that your Fiesta is currently not really incredibly competitive. Again, basing your results and opinions on what happens on one track against mostly the same people just doesn't work. But you did a fine job of missing my point, which surprised the hell out of me.

 

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Catch22:
Mr. Jones,

OK, you are a terrible debater. Thats why you'll never win. You say things that make no sense, constantly contradict yourself, and generally babble incessantly. The chip on your shoulder is so big I'm sure its giving you back problems.

But that chip is worth 20HP!!!!!

Har har ...jeez I crack myself up sometimes!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

 

[grjones1]

[/QUOTE]
Your point Scott is that because you see my car as uncompetitive because I haven't raced it at more tracks against what you consider to be superior competition , I do not have a right to complain about what I feel is a misclassification. Your point is so ad homminem, so much begging the question, so much post hoc, ergo propter hoc, so full of non-sequitor, and so full of arrogant presumption it deserves only to be missed. You make no point other than one's argument can only be gauged on one's experience, which itself is falacious.

I've offered to show you how competitive the Fiesta can be. Now put or shut up.
GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

 

[lateapex911]

OK, ok, I'l settle down...

A chip alone worth 20HP?? Hmmmmm.....sounds kinda optimistic. here's one from a fairly reputable company...:

Unleash the power hiding in your factory Engine Control Unit (ECU.) NEUSPEED engineers reprogram your ECU chip to optimize ignition timing under part throttle and full throttle load, and raise the rev-limiter and top speed governor. Horsepower is increased by approximately 5-7hp at the wheels. CARB approved (D236-10) when used with a K&N air filter or NEUSPEED P-Flo.

Notes
91 octane or higher fuel must be used with this chip.

Methinks 5-7 is a long way from 20.

Now, that said, of course, a chip can be used to extract the most from other changes that awouldn't be available to non ECU cars....but it's not an extra free 20hp! Some cars do benefit more than others. If you really want to use a figure as high as 20, (which sends red flags upto most folk who deal with these things), I think documentation (other than "My 20 yr. tech sez' so") is advisable.

Regarding competitveness, there's a lot of mumbo jumbo going on in the presentation of qualifications. It's not germaine to the discussion, Mr. Jones, if you heve trophys for your FP car or your GLH. What matters is the Fiesta, and the relative competiveness of that car at various tracks against known front runners.

And the P/W ratio is interesting, but not alone. What are the P/W ratios of other known front running cars in the class??

I sugggest Mr. Jones, that if indeed the New Bettle is so dominant over your Fiesta that you have to determine if it is truly a class overdog or not. (You have provided no information to that effect, as most of your comments are comparing it to your Fiesta.) If it is not an overdog vis a vis the Civic, the CRX, et al., then perhaps you need to solicit the ITAC and the CRb for a break for your car.

Of course, if that IS the case, you might find that your comments have left them in a position where it will be veeeeeeery hard to be objective, eh?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

 

[grjones1]

You know Jake, not having proven that the chip cannot make 20 Hp, your self-only enjoyed humor takes a great deal for granted.
You guys crack me up. Because you say the chip won't do it, that's supposed to be taken as gospel Bullshit!
GRJ

 

[grjones1]

Originally posted by grjones1:

Your point Scott is that because you see my car as uncompetitive because I haven't raced it at more tracks against what you consider to be superior competition , I do not have a right to complain about what I feel is a misclassification. Your point is so ad hominem, so much begging the question, so much post hoc, ergo propter hoc, so full of non-sequitor, and so full of arrogant presumption it deserves only to be missed. You make no point other than one's argument can only be gauged on one's experience, which itself is falacious.

I've offered to show you how competitive the Fiesta can be. Now put up or shut up.
GRJ[/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

 

[grjones1]

Jake,
As usual you switch the details to further your argument. Your ad reports at "at the wheels," I beleive my claim was at the crank. A difference as I'm sure you will admit. No I don't know for sure what the damn chips will produce but even if they only produce 7 Hp, that's 7 more than the remainder of the class gets. And I'll bet the ITAC contingent knows as little as I do about this and they need to know it all for sure before they go recommending new models for old classes.

And I heartily apologize for boring everyone with my less than stellar driving record. Old Scott there really pushed my defensive buttons. I can't wait to see him on the racetrack. I am sure his mere prescence will take 2 seconds off my best time.
GRJ

 

[lateapex911]

I am such the detail switcher aren't I???

Tch tch thc...

OK, then..... you chastised me earlier for not accounting properly in my conversion of crank to wheel HP. If you remember, I used a figure of 13%, but you told me I was WAY high. You never did suggest a better number.
SO.....they say the chip is 5-7 hp at the wheels ...you say 20 at the crank. Fine. Now lets convert your crank to an at the wheels figure...is a 10% conversion more to your liking??? That leaves yor chip adding 18Hp at the wheels, or about 3 times what a well known, reputable firm states is reasonable.

I'm not saying 20 is impossible, but that's a heck of a high percentage change from stock. I still think you need to back up a claim like that a lot better.

And PS, I am sorry if I have been profane in any of my posts with you, although I don't think I have. Please refrain from using it with me, dig?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited July 27, 2004).]

 

[grjones1]

Regarding competitveness, there's a lot of mumbo jumbo going on in the presentation of qualifications. It's not germaine to the discussion, And the P/W ratio is interesting, but not alone. What are the P/W ratios of other known front running cars in the class??
[/B][/QUOTE]
Jake,
My Fiesta has and does beat ITC Civics, rabbits and even 510s fairly often. I can document that. And if I can beat those cars is not a comparisom to my Fiesta with the NB a fairly sound comparisom for judging whether or not the NB is fairly placed in the class? And again shopuldn't the ITAC have already researched all this before the car was classed?
GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

 

[grjones1]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I am such the detail switcher aren't I???

Tch tch thc...

And PS, I am sorry if I have been profane in any of my posts with you, although I don't think I have. Please refrain from using it with me, dig?

Jake,
I too apologize for aiming profanity indiscretely. I will be the first to acknowlege mutual respect. (Scott excluded of course.)
Please allow me to continue later I must be excused.
GRJ

 

[Bill Miller]

It's a freaking VW motor, which has been explained to be just like all the other VW motors out there...

Actually Darin, it's not like 'all the other VW motors out there'. This motor (the 2.0 in the A3 and A4 cars, including the N is a cross-flow head design. The only other VW motors like this are the 16v motrs. The 8v motors in the A1 and A2 cars in ITB and ITC have the intake and the exhaust manifolds on the same side of the head.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">There is NO WAY that the 1.6VW only makes 75hp stock... either that, or IT prep REALLY wakes these things up, because the hp numbers for an IT prepped motor show that it's gaining a LOT more than 25% in the prep process... </font>

Ok Darin, time to put up or shut up. Let's see the data that support this claim. I forget if it was here on on the VW site, but Dick Shine said, IIRC, that the most they ever got out of a legal ITC motor was 98-99 hp. That's 30% - 32% increase over the stock 75hp. Hardly what I'd consider a LOT more than 25%.

If 90hp is the right number for the GTI you are referring too, then I'd say it should be in ITC at roughly 2290lbs... give or take 50lbs. This would only hold true if guys like Chris Albin, or Mark Coffin, or any number of other VW experts didn't provide us with evidence of the true HP for this car in IT prep...

That could change if someone came forward with some real dyno numbers for an all-out IT prepped engine (which is why I don't believe the stock hp numbers on the 1.6... I KNOW what they really make in IT prep...)

Well Darin, which is it? Either you've got numbers on the Rabbit GTI motors or you don't.

And by all means, post this proof that you have about the 1.6 motors. Should be interesting.

Oh, and just for some added info, a well known VW engine builder has stated that 122-123 hp is the most you will get out of a legal A2 1.8 8v motor. This is a motor that has 1.5 pts. more compression, a larger throttle body bore, and a better intake manifold, than does the Rabbit GTI.

/edit/

Here's Dick Shine's quote Darin, from this board.

I have built and tested many of these. The best ITC motor made 99.6 and the worse was 97.2HP on a SAE corrected dyno @ 230 degrees oil temp,210 degrees water and Mobil One 5W20. The O weight oil would occasionally lose prime and made no more power.The factory stock cam made as much power as the G and overfilling by .5 quarts lost 7 HP These are sensitive to exhaust and tail pipe length. We couldnt make 100 no matter what we tried (legally).
Dick Shine

Can't wait to hear your numbers.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[This message has been edited by Bill Miller (edited July 27, 2004).]

 

[gran racing]

Oh gosh. Dave being sucked in once again...

First of all, driving record has nothing to do with the Beetle being in ITC. And the fact that Jones races primarily at Summit? So what? I primarily race at Lime rock. And guess what? I run mid-pack in ITA. I also get beat by some of the top ITC drivers. Does that mean I am not a good driver? I personally don't think so. There is a lot that isn't seen.

Everyone has their home track no matter who you're talking about. Will I do better at LRP then the ARRC? I freaken hope so. And why shouldn't proximity matter? Listen, I work 40+ hours per week and am not a professional race car driver (I know, they are truely missing out here).

As far as records go, I wish "only" won the regional races on my home track. You gotta be kidding me!

Again, not that it really matters, I've raced Summit. It took me a few sessions to get it. No practice; the first race I qualified dead last. Boy did I have fun during the race though! So, am I a horrible driver? My home track Lime Rock. The down hill took me several times to get it / grow (yes, took some special pills) the balls get accustomed to it. Heck, now I'm passing people there? Until I got used to the track I thought you'd be crazy to do this!

What's the point? You know what, I am not even sure myself. Just got sucked in. Ut oh, heard DAVE!!!! as only a wife can do.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

 

[grjones1]

Originally posted by gran racing:
[/B]

Thanks Dave. I don't want you guilty by association, but I need all the help I can get. If ever you want a tour around Summit, I'll be glad to help. If you don't trust me [as others apparently see my competitiveness as questionable (I'm only second in the MARRS ITC points this year.)I'll fix you up with the fastest people there. At any rate be sure to find me, I want to buy you a beer (Of course they are free at the Saturday social.)
G. Robert

 

[lateapex911]

iginally posted by grjones1:

Jake,
My Fiesta has and does beat ITC Civics, rabbits and even 510s fairly often. I can document that. And if I can beat those cars is not a comparisom to my Fiesta with the NB a fairly sound comparisom for judging whether or not the NB is fairly placed in the class?

Well, I beat ITS RX-7s too but God knows I'm not the big dog even in ITA! Beating people is great, but irrelevant. Beating the RIGHT people on the right day has SOME relevance. Running fast at well attended tracks has some relevance as long as the car is known to be legal. And real hard data has the most bearing. For example, what do the Civics put down at the wheels in IT trim, and what do they weigh? How about the CRX?

Shouldn't the ITAC have already researched all this before the car was classed?
GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

Well, yes they should have, and according to them, they DID. It was YOU, after all that brought it up in the first place, and now we are debating the merits of your charge. Help us out and give us some real data. I know if you asked me about ITA I would be able to tell you EXACTLY what some of the the frontrunners (In the country, not just guys from one track) have for real documented power, how much they weigh, and comparative lap times on the same track.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited July 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited July 27, 2004).]

 

[Catch22]

See Mr. Jones, on the one hand you tell us that what your car can do at one track with you behind the wheel has no bearing on the accuracy of placing the NB in ITC. You said this here...

And I really don't think my record has much to do with these discussions

But in multiple other places you tell us multiple other times about how you consitently finish at the top and are in the running for MARRS points. You tell us this, presumably and apparently, because you think it demonstrates that your car IS currently competitive and the Beetle will injure this competitiveness.

You simply can't use an argument on the one hand when it meets your needs, and throw it out (using a bunch of big words... congratulations on that.) when someone else uses it against you. Or maybe you think you can. Well... Obviously you think you can.

In short, to make it easy on you...
- You use your current finishing record in MARRS to argue that your Fiesta is currently competitive. Something that a car like the Beetle will harm.
- When I say that your finishing record isn't a useful data point because you only race in one place, against pretty much constant competition, you tell me that your record doesn't have much to do with these discussions.

See how that just doesn't work?
I know you looked up a whole bunch of big words and stuff, but it still doesn't change the fact that you are constantly contradicting yourself to support your position. You really kind of need to work on that if you expect to win an argument of this sort.

And I've been to Summit Point once and thats all I needed. The track is a collection of frost heaves and mismatched patches, the paddock is horrible, and I was afraid to piss in the urinals for fear of some unknown brood of south american mosquito biting Scott Jr. But hey, at least its a 14 hour tow from my front door. I'll pass on the invite... Thanks anyway.
But if you want to make a date for VIR next year to see if you can make up those 6 seconds by changing that "Summit Point setup," I'll be there waiting for you.

Scott, who thinks thats one hell of a dialed in set-up for Summit that costs 6 seconds at VIR.