Beetle in ITC

Originally posted by Quickshoe:

If I could run heavier duty hubs I could stress them more without worrying about failure.

Maybe it would be more desireable to have heavier spring rates, stiffer bar rates, wider track, stickier rubber or other brake compounds which equate to higher temps.
Allowing me to upgrade to heavier duty hubs will allow me to go faster than I otherwise could. The hubs themselves will not make me faster but will allow me to utilize other legal components which will.
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Sorry Daryl, just doesn't hold water at least in my case: Since I've changed to heavier springs, bigger bars, and stiffer shocks, and added a front sway bar, I've broken fewer hubs. Cornering speeds up, hub replacement down. Probably something to do with holding the hub stationary (i.e., less play even under increased stress) is my purely intuitive guess. Nice try with countering my statement but your speculation is not based on fact, at least in my practical experience.

I don't think I know of anyone who limits their use of "other legal components" which allow them to go faster, because they have weak hubs.

And, tell me Daryl, how many hubs has your FF broken, that is without having hit something?

And I see that K has saved so much $ on not having to replace hubs, he can afford Recaro seats in his IT (SS?) car. Gee, if I could only convince the Board to let me use heavier hubs, I too could trade in my cheap old Butler-Built for a Recaro and impress all my autocross friends.
Uh oh, I've given away my ulterior motive.
GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 07, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 07, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by lateapex911:
NOW I'm pissed!!!!!!!!!

First, I take the "You're no man" crap GRJ hurls at me, THEN I go to the MAT for you ITAC guys defending your very integrity, (and take even more derision and suggestions of a personal agenda), then I even post a semi funny "Awards" post, just to lighten things up...and THATS the thanks I get???
"Gregs the only guy to give..." you even a chuckle?? Well, say no more!
rolleyes.gif

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Jake, as far as your making it as a stand-up, don't give up your day job. But if I threatened your virility, I apologize.
GRJ
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
First - I'm a whole long way from angry. You haven't SEEN angry. I'm not even mildly pissed off. (Note the use of the smiley face, Darren!) My objectivity remains intact and I'd remind you that the fact that one doesn't agree with another's position makes it niether wrong nor irrational.
K
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Oh, I don't know,K, when someone goes off on what a safety nut he is to make a point that considering allowing better hubs in a racing class is out of the question.: and when someone suggests that anyone seeking a safety item be allowed in the rules is just looking for a performance advantage, I detect more than a little irrationality.

Disagreeing with me doesn't necessarily make you wrong or irrational, your argument is what I find less objective and more irrational than any I've ever heard from you.
GRJ
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
By the way, I passed that red Civic (SARRC record holder) on the first lap of Sunday's race before I lost it at Hogpen. But don't tell anybody.
G.
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I want to be really careful as to not impose too much fact on Mr. Jones' arguments, but I just HAVE to correct a couple.

First off a red Civic does not hold the track record at VIR. Last I checked the record was a mid 2:27 by a Ford Escort. I admit that I don't know the driver and can't recall the name.
The red Civic you refer to is likely Mr. Mark Senior. A very fast driver and great competitor, but typically about 3 seconds off the VIR record. Thats the the only SARRC red Civic I know of, other than mine (which by the way popped a 2:27 in the ECR earlier this year). We were under the track record, but it didn't count because it was an enduro. The driver was Trever Degionne who went on to win the race co-driving with my girlfriend Renee.
This is fact.

The longest straight at VIR is not, as Mr. Jones has noted several times, 1.5 miles long. It is 4000 feet long (per the VIR website). If my math is correct, thats a little over .75 miles. So while it adds dramatic effect to claim VIR has a 1.5 mile long straight, it is pretty far (about twice as far) from actually being true. Also, for what its worth, the front straight at VIR is 3000 ft, the same as listed for Summit Point.
These are facts, assuming my math is correct.

Now that those little details are out of the way...

Bad Al... I've watched him many times before I raced with SCCA. I know he's fast and look forward to racing him someday. GRJ... If you run with Badal, you must be fast as well. Congrats, hope to see you soon as well. I spend my weekends chasing Will Perry and Vesa Silegren. If you don't know them, I'm sure Al does, ask him.

Finally, I'll just say this one more time (I don't know why, just compelled I guess). My intentions were never to attack GRJ's skills or abilities. I was only attempting to demonstrate WHY you cant use your results or entry counts or speeds at ONE TRACK in ONE SERIES as a data point in any argument. I used your performance at VIR, which was far lacking in comparison to your Summit performance, to demonstrate this point. You took it personally, went blind, and started rambling. Fine, OK, Whatever.
But hopefully you are starting to "get it," and it looks like you are.

Again, when Beetles start showing up and E36ing everybody my name will be on the petition right next to yours, but in the meantime trust, support, and for christ sakes don't verbally abuse your local ITAC.

Scott, who'll gladly share beers with Al and GRJ but will still argue that they are very wrong while doing it.
 
Originally posted by Catch22:
I want to be really careful as to not impose too much fact on Mr. Jones' arguments, but I just HAVE to correct a couple.

First off a red Civic does not hold the track record at VIR. ...The red Civic you refer to is likely Mr. Mark Senior. The longest straight at VIR is not, as Mr. Jones has noted several times, 1.5 miles long. It is 4000 feet long (per the VIR website). If my math is correct, thats a little over .75 miles.
Now that those little details are out of the way...

Bad Al... I've watched him many times before I raced with SCCA. I know he's fast and look forward to racing him someday. GRJ... If you run with Badal, you must be fast as well. Congrats, hope to see you soon as well. Finally, I'll just say this one more time (I don't know why, just compelled I guess). My intentions were never to attack GRJ's skills or abilities. I was only attempting to demonstrate WHY you cant use your results or entry counts or speeds at ONE TRACK in ONE SERIES
Scott, who'll gladly share beers with Al and GRJ but will still argue that they are very wrong while doing it.
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OK, Scott I'll concede all points as you wrote them here. I really thought Mark Senior held the ITC record at VIR, my mistake. And as far as distances at the tracks : the straight at Summit feels like .9 miles, and VIR like 1.5 miles in the Fiesta. In fact I often have a cigarette and turn on the radio if you know what I mean. I think I included the lefthand sweeper before the downhills in my recollection of VIR. But no excuse, I was in error. That extra 1000 feet (three football fields), however, might call for a little higher final drive, than the one I use at SPR. (the SPR setup you found so incredulous). I of course will not concede the "one track, one series" issue, but that's something we can look forward to throwing beer cans at each other over.

I don't "run with" Al, I was on the track the same time as he when he was driving the 510. I might stay a little closer to him these days, but that's all I can claim.

I'll drink that beer with you Scott, and, you know, argue as long as we can stay awake. I look forward to seeing how good that Civic is, but do me one favor, leave those rear brakes connected, I think they're doing more than you imagine.

Oh, and I did get by Mark on that first lap, and overcooked Hogpen trying to put some distance between us, knowing he'd be back pretty soon for a repass.

G. Robert


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 07, 2004).]
 
And I see that K has saved so much $ on not having to replace hubs, he can afford Recaro seats in his IT (SS?) car. Gee, if I could only convince the Board to let me use heavier hubs, I too could trade in my cheap old Butler-Built for a Recaro and impress all my autocross friends.
Uh oh, I've given away my ulterior motive.
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You know Robert, there's this old saying about talking and removing doubt.
rolleyes.gif


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
You know Robert, there's this old saying about talking and removing doubt.
rolleyes.gif


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Bill,
If you know how much Butler-Builts are these days, you know just how tongue-in-cheek my remark was.
smile.gif

GRJ
 
Grj,

I thought a page or two back you might have had your prescription refilled
biggrin.gif
Guess not.

Originally posted by grjones1:
And, tell me Daryl, how many hubs has your FF broken, that is without having hit something?
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Zero. The part is engineered well enough to handle the stresses it encounters.

If Kirk was concerned about impressing his buddies he would have purchased a HANS, instead he is concerned with his safety, he has an ISAAC.

------------------
Daryl DeArman



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited August 07, 2004).]
 
A very nice try, but no (OK, there may be some weird exception).

When a manufacturer supercedes parts, the original part number is usually listed. All supersession parts with be listed as well and in a notes area of the original part, all supersession parts are usually listed. ALL of those part would be legal.

George,
If you can't obtain a known stock example of the original cam, which by definition of supercession, you can't, then how do you prove the original cam is original?
A part number is NOT good enough.
You may know, and I may know the original cam is original and therefore should be legal, but there is no way to prove it.

BTW, Dave Flinchbaugh, A MARRS guy from PA is the VIR lap record holder in an Escort.

------------------
"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series
 
Originally posted by badal:
BTW, Dave Flinchbaugh, A MARRS guy from PA is the VIR lap record holder in an Escort.
[/B]
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And could that be the same Dave Flinchbaugh whose Escort my Fiesta finished in front of at MARRS I last Spring (and forgive me for reporting this Dave). Ummmm, things are beginning to take a turn. (Thanks for correcting my mistaken VIR ITC record holder, Scott.)
GRJ
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
And could that be the same Dave Flinchbaugh whose Escort my Fiesta finished in front of at MARRS I last Spring (and forgive me for reporting this Dave). Ummmm, things are beginning to take a turn. (Thanks for correcting my mistaken VIR ITC record holder, Scott.)
GRJ
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I'm not sure if you realize it, but this kind of proves MY point.

I'll elaborate...
Beat him at your home track.
Wayyyyyyy behind him at a different track.

Kind of like if a Beetle starts killing everyone in the MARRS series... At Summit Point...
Does this mean that the Beetle is mis-classed???
What if the same Beetle (just for example <wink> ) went to VIR and lost by 6 to 8 seconds per lap???
Would it still be an overdog?
Or maybe, like a certain guy in a Fiesta, its just really good a Summit point???

Heck, my car is extremely good at Roebling Road because the crappy 4 speed gearbox does not hurt it at all. I can damned near run ITB times there. Does this mean it should be moved to ITB??? Even if I ONLY run it at Roebling Road???
Good God I hope not.

So tell me again how results and points standings at one track, in one series, are meaningful data... I'm still trying to understand.

Scott, who's car sucks so bad at CMP he's never going back and is like driving something dragging a boat anchor through Turn 7 at Road Atlanta.
 
Originally posted by Quickshoe:
Grj,

I thought a page or two back you might have had your prescription refilled
biggrin.gif
Guess not.
{quote ]

Now, Daryl, I thought we were refraining from "personal attacks."

Zero. The part is engineered well enough to handle the stresses it encounters.
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I must point up that we have two apparent advocates (K and Daryl)of considering a request for stronger hubs as a cloaked performance enhancement request. Both apparently experts on how stronger hubs allow performance equipment that could not otherwise be used. When I think it's probably the other way around: because we change the suspension geometry and place the hubs under maximum stress, some of the hubs which are up to street use, are not up to competition use. Now they argue that if I can put on stronger hubs, I'll be able to alter the geometry and use the car for competition. Excuse me is that not what we are about? And I guess if we take this logic to it's extreme (K's favorite exercise) what they are telling me is after I have spent the money to build my car according to the rules, race it, and discover that the hubs will break because they cannot take the stresses of competition, I should park my car in the garage and try not to stumble over anything.

These great bits of wisdom coming from two happy participants whose cars don't have a hub problem. Gee guys, your whole response is replendent with reasonable consideration for us all.
GRJ
 
Originally posted by Catch22:
I'm not sure if you realize it, but this kind of proves MY point.
I'll elaborate...
Beat him at your home track.
Wayyyyyyy behind him at a different track.
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Scott, I'm really worn out with this argument, but I and you can only base our perceptions on the data that is in front of us, whether it be at one track or twenty. To a degree your point is well taken except for the fact (and I really don't like making excuses for a bad performance until I prove I can do better) my times at VIR (and I don't expect you to believe it until I prove it) were due to available tires. I know how much better my car handles with new Hoosiers and I know what kind of acceleration and top end I can achieve at VIR.
For example, I don't (and I assume you don't either) normally lift on the uphill esses. But I was having to feather all the way through because the year old Toyos I was using just wouldn't grip and I would drift off line until I lifted. That's two seconds lost right there and I won't bore you with the slippery nonsense going on in the downhills and elsewhere every lap. And I know that 6 seconds you so enjoy throwing up at me is really within reach. But I can't expect you to believe it until I do it. So let's just let this one die, until I can get back to VIR and prove one of us wrong.
GRJ

I will add that I think if you ask any of the 30 or so people I've raced with in ITC, they will confirm that my Fiesta is representative of a competitive ITC car, regardless of what track we may be attending.

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 07, 2004).]
 
Boy am I glad I was racing this weekend! Phew.

Point of interest: Miata front hubs are said to last only 15 hours before failure. Haven't seen any letters requesting a better part. It's a wear item on your 'weapon' of choice. There are tons of these types of wear items on everyones car. You learn the cars and you maintain accordingly. It's racing.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Boy am I glad I was racing this weekend! Phew.

Point of interest: Miata front hubs are said to last only 15 hours before failure. Haven't seen any letters requesting a better part. It's a wear item on your 'weapon' of choice. There are tons of these types of wear items on everyones car. You learn the cars and you maintain accordingly. It's racing.
AB
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AB, I won't comment on the patronizing I detect in your tone here because I'm refraining from "personal attacks." (I wish there was a little happy face I could type that stood for "personal attack" instead of typing "personal attack" over and over.)

Gee, after racing a $500.00 Ford Fiesta since 1991, I don't know anything about "maintaining wear items" thanks for pointing that up.

More important, 15 hours equates to 12 MARRS race weekends: two 15-minute qualifying sessions and one 45-minute race. If I could get two weekends (2 hours and 30 minutes) out of a set of stock front hubs with any degree of assurance, I'd be a happy man. I'm sorry but your analogy begs the question.
GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 07, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by grega:
... Chaos, panic, and disorder -- my work here is done.
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Hey, Greg - what's the difference between a hamter and a gerbil?

Answer: Gerbils are mostly dark meat.

K
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
Hey, Greg - what's the difference between a hamter and a gerbil?

Answer: Gerbils are mostly dark meat.

K
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I get it. Until you think of an answer, you resort to slapstick.
GRJ
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
Both apparently experts on how stronger hubs allow performance equipment that could not otherwise be used.
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I don't consider myself an expert on the subject, but I'm flattered you find it apparent.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">we change the suspension geometry and place the hubs under maximum stress, some of the hubs which are up to street use, are not up to competition use.</font>
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I don't see your opinion as that different than mine.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">These great bits of wisdom coming from two happy participants whose cars don't have a hub problem.</font>
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I don't know about Kirk's car, but my car doesn't have hub problems. It does have its' share of other problems.

The motors don't last long under the stress we dish out. Better parts would help that, but then some would just twist them even tighter, wouldn't they?

I apologize for the prescription comment. It was an attempt at humor. After one of your posts a few days back I was waiting for someone to close this thread by requesting a group hug.



------------------
Daryl DeArman
 
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