Beetle in ITC

Regarding G Grinds:
There is a specific protest procedure in the GCR for checking cams. 13.4.1.E
Basically, it involves procuring a known stock example of a cam. Both it and the cam in question are sent to Kansas for examination (Cam Proctologist)

It stands to reason the stock cam would be obtained from a local dealer.

Therefore, the cam the dealer provides would be legal if it is a superseceded/replacement/whatever you want to call it, as long as it is listed for that year/make/model.

In conclusion, the G grind provided by the dealer would be found legal.

Class dismissed.

------------------
"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series
 
Originally posted by badal:
Regarding G Grinds:
It stands to reason the stock cam would be obtained from a local dealer.

Therefore, the cam the dealer provides would be legal if it is a superseceded/replacement/whatever you want to call it, as long as it is listed for that year/make/model.
In conclusion, the G grind provided by the dealer would be found legal.
Class dismissed.
Al, The problem of course, as I'm sure you know, is that VW has the only dealers providing a European spec cam for ITC model cars. (I know: "tough shizitzki"!)
GRJ
Am I going in circles here? Gee, I thought I could turn left and right??!??



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 05, 2004).]
 
Devil's advocate:

So what? Put it in ITC. If it dominates the class, then it's only a sign of growth and moving forward. The E36 did it to ITS, and the CRX did it to ITA. Why should ITC be exempt from the process?
 
I think the point on the G-grind cam is that the SCCA defers to the manufacturer to make its own decisions about supercede parts.

The QUESTION is what kind of documentation is going to be held as the standard of law to define what IS or is NOT a supercede. Since each manufacturer may do it completely differently, the standard must accommodate a broad variety of practice (e.g., "published through official service bulletins"). Otherwise, each supercede decision WILL have to be made by the CRB and that is a horrible idea.

The fact that no other manufacturer has done what VW seems to have done just doesn't matter, unless the question at hand is whether the existing "supercede" rule should be changed.

K
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
...The QUESTION is what kind of documentation is going to be held as the standard of law to define what IS or is NOT a supercede. Since each manufacturer may do it completely differently, the standard must accommodate a broad variety of practice (e.g., "published through official service bulletins"). Otherwise, each supercede decision WILL have to be made by the CRB and that is a horrible idea.

Exactly. And it gets worse, because lift and duration figures, which is what will probably be published in "official service bulletins", are just part of the story.

In order to fully describe a cam one needs a polar plot of lift, i.e. lift throughout a full rotation. This lobe profile exists for both intake and exhaust valves, so a true spec for a "stock" cam must overlay both valves' polar plots to account for overlap.

Simple, eh? Yeah, right. Like you're gonna find that at the parts counter.

At some point someone has to say, "Close enough."

Gregg

[edit: spelling]

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited August 05, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by badal:
Regarding G Grinds:
There is a specific protest procedure in the GCR for checking cams. 13.4.1.E
Basically, it involves procuring a known stock example of a cam. Both it and the cam in question are sent to Kansas for examination (Cam Proctologist)

It stands to reason the stock cam would be obtained from a local dealer.

Therefore, the cam the dealer provides would be legal if it is a superseceded/replacement/whatever you want to call it, as long as it is listed for that year/make/model.

In conclusion, the G grind provided by the dealer would be found legal.

Class dismissed.


Sorry Al, but you fail here. Just because a dealer gives you a part, it does not mean it's legal. It's just not that simple. It's further complicated by the wording in the ITCS.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> the situation is other marques don't get the same break.</font>

Robert,

You're twisting things a bit there aren't you? What 'break' do the VW's get? This is the cam, supplied by the dealer, for the car. It just so happens that the part was previously sold in Europe, before it was supplied in the US.

And just how don't marques, other than VW, get to take advantage of the same process?

You want to harp on something that may not be exactly cricket, go after the Olds/Pontiac Quad 4 hubs. Interesting comment about the safety issue. If that's really the case, the A1 VW's should be allowed to use the A2 hubs. It's a well known fact that A1 VW's are prone to breaking front hubs.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Geo:
Sorry Al, but you fail here. Just because a dealer gives you a part, it does not mean it's legal. It's just not that simple. It's further complicated by the wording in the ITCS.




Then where do you get a known example of a stock cam? And I said it would be "found legal". That does not mean it is legal, just that it can't be proven illegal.

------------------
"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[This message has been edited by badal (edited August 05, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by zracer22:
Devil's advocate:

So what? Put it in ITC. If it dominates the class, then it's only a sign of growth and moving forward. The E36 did it to ITS, and the CRX did it to ITA. Why should ITC be exempt from the process?
Careful , you are beginning to sound like the "devil". And he's trying to be "forgiven".
GRJ
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Robert,

You're twisting things a bit there aren't you? What 'break' do the VW's get? This is the cam, supplied by the dealer, for the car. It just so happens that the part was previously sold in Europe, before it was supplied in the US.

And just how don't marques, other than VW, get to take advantage of the same process?
What's being favored here are cars that were produced and imported in large numbers. The G cam exists because there are enough Rabbits hopping around to justify even having the part available. Cars like the Fiestas, Opels, and X1/9s, to name a few, have no dealer support. So we have no "means" to take advantage of any supersession/replacement rule. We do have importers who will supply us OEM parts and use parts lists from European and OEM performance departments, but they aren't included in the rule because they are not "dealers". That's the "break" I'm referring to.
GRJ
___________________________________________
You want to harp on something that may not be exactly cricket, go after the Olds/Pontiac Quad 4 hubs. Interesting comment about the safety issue. If that's really the case, the A1 VW's should be allowed to use the A2 hubs. It's a well known fact that A1 VW's are prone to breaking front hubs.
Addressed this issue in another post about six months ago. I'm all in favor of safe hubs for everyone, as long as they don't mean larger rotors, etc. I beleive you were privy to that discussion. I think I said any rule that adds to safety (including removal of the passenger side door glass (which serves no purpose), especially one that resolves the weak hubs on cars being raced should be written immediately. But, I was shot down with such indisputable logic as stronger hubs would give a car an advantage in an enduro. I figure if someone can offer that up as a good reason to disallow keeping wheels on the cars, what's the use? If I were racing an A1, I'd use the good hubs and whoever protested me could suffer the ostracism and ridicule he deserves.
GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 05, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by badal:
Then where do you get a known example of a stock cam?

From a dealer of course. As long as they are still available, either as the original cam or as a supersession.

The problem that exists is parts-bin engineering. A dealer may know a given part will work, but if the manufacturer didn't officially suspercede the original part with it, then it would not be legal even though it fits and you got it from the dealer.

Let me temper this with saying that I believe the above is the way it is supposed to work. The wording is muddy and definitions lacking leaving the situation open to argument.

As a working group with over 300 cars (and growing) it's nearly impossible to look at allowing parts-bin engineering (not that it hasn't happened obviously, see the discussion about the Olds), so it comes down to what the manufacturers do IMHO. We just need to straighten out the wording and/or create working definitions.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by grjones1:
What's being favored here are cars that were produced and imported in large numbers. The G cam exists because there are enough Rabbits hopping around to justify even having the part available. Cars like the Fiestas, Opels, and X1/9s, to name a few, have no dealer support.

Too bad, so sad. What's your point? It's not the responsibility of the BOD, CRB, or ITAC to say "oh, this car needs a break because there is A, B or C."

It sounds like I'm being harsh, but that's the reality here.

Originally posted by grjones1:
So we have no "means" to take advantage of any supersession/replacement rule. We do have importers who will supply us OEM parts and use parts lists from European and OEM performance departments, but they aren't included in the rule because they are not "dealers".

You're taking two differnt things here and trying to merge them together. VW didn't offer a "hot" cam from their European parts bin per se. They officially superceded the original cam. Manufacturers change part numbers and parts performance all the time. That another manufacturer hasn't done this is no reason to allow performance OEM products from other markets and/or applications. Again, if the legend of the G-grind is true, you simply have to look at it as if VW offered the car for sale with this cam because of their supersession.

Originally posted by grjones1:
I think I said any rule that adds to safety (including removal of the passenger side door glass (which serves no purpose), especially one that resolves the weak hubs on cars being raced should be written immediately.

The bottom line is we could argue ALL SORTS of performance enhancing items on the basis of safety. That one will not get off the ground. And you can argue that you want something that is not performance enhancing, but better reliability, but I say that's not even going down the bunny slope. That's a black diamond (advanced and very dangerous for your non-skiers, IIRC).

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited August 05, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by badal:

Then where do you get a known example of a stock cam? And I said it would be "found legal". That does not mean it is legal, just that it can't be proven illegal.


Lets say you're a VW competitor, and bought out a failing dealerships part supplies years ago for your specialty repair and racing business. You happen to have a bunch of 1978 VW original equipment cams, with the original correct part number.

Your competitor does not, but needs a cam, so he goes and gets one from the dealer in 2003. As they no longer have the original, they hand him the "g grind" and off he goes.

A third competitor gets wind of this and protests him. He provides the documentation of the correct part number, and even provides your name as a source of the actual part, a new (NOS) sealed in the box cam.

The follow thru has you shipping the part to Kansas, the Stewards shipping the protested "G grind" to Kansas, where they are both run on the "Cam doctor", which as I understand it, provides the polar plot Gregg refered to.

A third cam is procured from VWNA by the independent source that does the actual testing. (This is not the standard practice, but was the procedure followed in a recent SM camshaft protest, so I feel it is appropriate) They also try to source an original part, but it appears you have purchased the last of the NOS ones.

Test results show: The cam supplied as NOS has different polar plots than the other two, which match each other. It also has a different p/n than the other two, which also have p/ns that match each other.

So, what will the decision be?

1: The protest is upheld as the G grind does not meet the specs of the original cam?

2: The protest is upheld because the G grind does not have the correct p/n stamped on it as does the original cam?

3: The protest is disallowed because the source of the original cam is not considered to be trustworthy?

4: The protest is upheld because the G grind part number is not listed as a line item in the ITCS?


All of the above?

The crux of your question is: Who does the onus of proof fall upon....the protester or the protestee? In other words, innocent until proven guilty or vice versa?

Some interesting related GCR tidbits:

In the ITCS, it states the parts that are non original ARE allowed, providing that the "Documentation of.....must be supplied to the Club Racing Board, and the ...part numbers listed ...in the specification line."
OK, fine, but it leaves out the important standard: WHO supples the documentation?

And another, in the section regarding protests, and the procedure for cam checking by the head office: 13.4.1.E.2, "A known stock example of the camshaft in question must be provided with the protested camshaft...."

Again...by whom? And how is "known" verified??

Thoughts?



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Originally posted by Geo:
George,
i was asked what "break" the VW people were getting with the rule, and I was simply explaining how the VWs were getting that break. I wasn't looking for any sympathy, especially from this crowd.
smile.gif


On the safety thing, I strongly disagree with your position there. When racecars are losing their wheels habitually and you have the means to keep those wheels on the car and don't allow use of the means, you are simply being bullheaded. I can't imagine what possible "speed" advantage a heavy-duty hub permits. (And please don't come up with "if I know my wheels won't fall off, I can go faster." And please don't talk about if I service or replace my hubs regularly they won't fall off, they will and they do. I understand your position: you don't want to have to consider every claim for a safety item that you know may be a performance enhancer. And I appreciate the reasoning, but in the case of front hubs, that is definitely not an issue. And I'll be just as bullheaded on this one, so let's keep our disagreement in line. You have the power to ignore me and keep the rule as it stands, I have the power to howl at the moon.
GRJ

George, I must add: when the guy in that legal ITC Rabbit doesn't make it back to his wife and kids after losing his wheel because of weak hubs, at the end of the 1.5-mile straight at VIR and rolls his Rabbit and himself up into a little ball, will you be as unwilling to determine the difference between a safety issue and a performance one?

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 05, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 05, 2004).]
 
Jake, My original post had the part coming from the dealer. And George, of course I meant it ould be a part specified for the car. I think you and I are arguing the same point.
So if the G grind is the standard, I guess it is conceivable an original stock cam could be not legal.

And if you have a Fiat or Fiesta, apparently you can run any cam you please as there are no Fiat Dealers or Ford stock cams available. GRobert, shame on you for not picking up on this and keeping your mouth shut!

------------------
"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series
 
Originally posted by badal:

And if you have a Fiat or Fiesta, apparently you can run any cam you please as there are no Fiat Dealers or Ford stock cams available. GRobert, shame on you for not picking up on this and keeping your mouth shut!
As a matter of fact Al, I made a similar comment about two volumes ago. Have a little faith will you? I'm here, I'm just trying to be timely (and mannerly) with my remarks.
G.
 
Sorry G Robert. No serious offense intended.
Hey!I just realized its been a while since I saw a Datsun dealer. I smell loophole!
 
Originally posted by badal:
Sorry G Robert. No serious offense intended.
Hey!I just realized its been a while since I saw a Datsun dealer. I smell loophole!

No offense taken. You got it, Babe! No dealer, no new parts available, nothing illegal.

Hey, please join us at VIR with the 510 in the Fall, just to let people know how competitive the MARRS contingent can be away from Summit. (God knows you don't want me having to hold up the banner.) By the way, I passed that red Civic (SARRC record holder) on the first lap of Sunday's race before I lost it at Hogpen. But don't tell anybody.
G.


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited August 06, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by grega:
Therapy is expensive, popping bubble wrap is cheap.

You choose.

Sounds an awful lot like crinkling Reynolds Wrap too.
biggrin.gif



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
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