Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I think most of Prod and most of Touring would go away if IT was a choice...butu again, IT would grow and the others may die. Good? Bad? Natural Selection?
;-)
Big Picture of IT - Share Your Opinions
- Thread starter Knestis
- Start date
I think most of Prod and most of Touring would go away if IT was a choice...butu again, IT would grow and the others may die. Good? Bad? Natural Selection?
;-)
quick response before i go play my round of golf (which is becoming more and more appealing to me over racing).....
SM #s in my area are WAY WAY down from where they were before the class went national. the year before nationals (2005?) we'd typically get about 20-30 cars for every event, people were coming in from everywhere, new drivers showing up at every event. everyone was having a good time, and partying with each other just as much as racing.
2006 saw a MASSIVE arms race in a big hurry amongst about the top 15 drivers. new sets of tires every weekend, buying multiple pro motors and testing to until they got a good one, tons of testing, etc. instead of staying up a drinking on saturday night people packed their shit up and went to bed. the first national race had an obvious and drasticly different atmosphere. it was a huge achievement just to qualify for the runoffs, and by year 3 all you had to do was show up to enough events and you'd qualify.
a GOOD national SM race around here is maybe 12 or 15 cars, i think the regional this weekend has 3 or 4. i can't think of anyone who has joined SM as a new driver in a couple years now. most have defected to other classes, or quit altogether.
i know a lot of you think you're doing all you can do right now, and there's no more money to spend, but i highly doubt it.
SM #s in my area are WAY WAY down from where they were before the class went national. the year before nationals (2005?) we'd typically get about 20-30 cars for every event, people were coming in from everywhere, new drivers showing up at every event. everyone was having a good time, and partying with each other just as much as racing.
2006 saw a MASSIVE arms race in a big hurry amongst about the top 15 drivers. new sets of tires every weekend, buying multiple pro motors and testing to until they got a good one, tons of testing, etc. instead of staying up a drinking on saturday night people packed their shit up and went to bed. the first national race had an obvious and drasticly different atmosphere. it was a huge achievement just to qualify for the runoffs, and by year 3 all you had to do was show up to enough events and you'd qualify.
a GOOD national SM race around here is maybe 12 or 15 cars, i think the regional this weekend has 3 or 4. i can't think of anyone who has joined SM as a new driver in a couple years now. most have defected to other classes, or quit altogether.
i know a lot of you think you're doing all you can do right now, and there's no more money to spend, but i highly doubt it.
JeffYoung
New member
Andy, just have to agree to disagree on that one...but I'll still drink a beer in your honor this holiday weekend..lol...
Unfortunately, I think the picture Travis paints is what we would mostly see in IT. The guys I know racing Prod and GT don't think much of the prep rules in our class. THey are in Prod and GT for a reason - a reason that would be frustrated in IT. They like to build and innovate.
Unfortunately, I think the picture Travis paints is what we would mostly see in IT. The guys I know racing Prod and GT don't think much of the prep rules in our class. THey are in Prod and GT for a reason - a reason that would be frustrated in IT. They like to build and innovate.
Z3_GoCar
New member
We actually have a stong core of T1 guys, who started from HPDE'ing Vette's, but there's no IT class for that kind of power which would be at least two levels above "R". I'll take Jeff's point farther out. Say the tinker guy's do come to IT, we'll see all sorts of "inovations" snuck in. Your vacume hose to the ECU, or using a plastic spacer to port-match are childs play compaired to what you might see happening. Also, don't bring out the allowed modifications can't perform prohibited functions rule. Because where are the prohibited funcitons listed in either the ITCS or the glossery? Since they're not listed it can be argued that they don't exist.
tom_sprecher
Super Moderator
Besides the lack of rotor houisngs this will be one of the main reasons I will one day switch to one of those categories.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
You ever take a look at the 'limited prep' prod rules? Bet you would be surprised to know how many 'new' prod cars are being build and to what prep level.
It's a topic that will never be proven until it happens. I doubt it will...but what happened to Spec Miata won't happen in IT. Why? Because we all have different cars and we aren't developing for the last 1/2 a hp. Also, SM was too young to go National. The drivers had no idea what to expect. They were having fun while it was growing fast. They got dragged along for the ride and had no idea what it meant to run a spec class in the big leagues. It was more about being happy-go-lucky and not seeing what was coming.
If I ever get a vote, I will probably vote no now. IT has a couple great events that hold water and the members don't seem to want it.
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It's more than a little ironic that we're talking about IT becoming a National class when evidence right now suggests that the CRB isn't comfortable with what the ITAC is currently doing with it as a REGIONAL class...
SM is a great case study in the "rules don't control costs" dynamic. I have a suspicion that if one drilled into understanding why drivers became disillusioned with SM, it would have a lot to do with folks coming to understand that - contrary to the PR BS - it was NOT possible to "be competitive" with a $6000 car because "everyone has the same hardware." I heard over and over from drivers starting in SM that "equal equipment" would be the great equalizer: That real talent would rise to the top, and that one couldn't buy a title in SM.
Wrong.
There's little question that competitive pressures would increase among drivers who might decide to do a "National program" were IT to have that opportunity. However, I don't see how that would have much - if any - impact on someone who wanted to continue doing precisely what is possible right now - running for regional or divisional points, or just having fun competing at one's local track. There might be a few "national" guys/gals running regional races but they wouldn't bring a much bigger gun to the OK Corral than do the current high-end Regional efforts.
I also don't buy the thesis that offering IT as a National class wold siphon off a substantial volume of current Regional-only IT racers. If running National events were a priority for Racer X, he wouldn't have chosen IT. I tend to think that IT would swipe from other National classes but we won't ever know because frankly, current trends make it clear that IT won't ever be considered for National status: There's just too much pressure for it to continue like it is, as the cash cow that supports a big chunk of each Region's club racing revenue...
...or if it DID happen, it would be within the prevailing National "competition adjustment" (bleah!) paradigm. That influence is what has me most worried at this point, about IT as a REGIONAL category...
K
SM is a great case study in the "rules don't control costs" dynamic. I have a suspicion that if one drilled into understanding why drivers became disillusioned with SM, it would have a lot to do with folks coming to understand that - contrary to the PR BS - it was NOT possible to "be competitive" with a $6000 car because "everyone has the same hardware." I heard over and over from drivers starting in SM that "equal equipment" would be the great equalizer: That real talent would rise to the top, and that one couldn't buy a title in SM.
Wrong.
There's little question that competitive pressures would increase among drivers who might decide to do a "National program" were IT to have that opportunity. However, I don't see how that would have much - if any - impact on someone who wanted to continue doing precisely what is possible right now - running for regional or divisional points, or just having fun competing at one's local track. There might be a few "national" guys/gals running regional races but they wouldn't bring a much bigger gun to the OK Corral than do the current high-end Regional efforts.
I also don't buy the thesis that offering IT as a National class wold siphon off a substantial volume of current Regional-only IT racers. If running National events were a priority for Racer X, he wouldn't have chosen IT. I tend to think that IT would swipe from other National classes but we won't ever know because frankly, current trends make it clear that IT won't ever be considered for National status: There's just too much pressure for it to continue like it is, as the cash cow that supports a big chunk of each Region's club racing revenue...
...or if it DID happen, it would be within the prevailing National "competition adjustment" (bleah!) paradigm. That influence is what has me most worried at this point, about IT as a REGIONAL category...
K
wrong.
you can't buy a title in SM. you have to have a very good car, but you also have to have some serious driving ability, as well as a very good setup. it takes all 3 (~$18-20k i think will get you a car fast enough to do the job.)
here's the problem.....a big part of the fun for the regular guys is being in the middle of a big pack, with lots of cars in the field, and still being able to "see" the guys up front. split the class into regional/national and suddenly you have much smaller fields, the front runner guys are WAY the hell out there, and suddenly you're paying higher entry fees to turn laps by yourself for 45min. THAT is a real impact to an individuals fun.
it wasn't exactly a priority for the early competitors of SM either.
....whatever. i couldn't care less right now.
SM was designed to be just like IT....... a regional class. It got so big so fast that outside forces (racers from other classes) joined the fray and changed the design. I tend to think that the same thing would happen if IT went RunOffs eligible. That would be fine for a certain faction of present IT racers, but I am guessing (and this is just a guess) that the greater numbers of IT racers would not like it.
I dabbled in the National Racing scene a little this year and found the goal I was racing for to be different than in the past. It was sort of an abbreviated effort which after the fact I blame on IT racing being so much fun!
With the ROs going to RAmerica this year, I decided last fall to get a SS car and make a run at going. After chasing those dang Hondas and Acuras at ARRC I decided if you can't beat'em then join'em. I got an Acura to run this season and then turn it into an ITS car. Racing Nationals was a whole different mind set for me (maybe I am different who knows). Instead of lining up and racing each race for as much fun (and speed) as I could have, I started thinking about getting enough races in to qualify. Tires were being eaten up quicker and in fewer races so I worried about the tire budget. The IT guys were doing their usual assing around antics between races and plotting to pull some crazy night time paddock mayhem.....I was over messing with my car (which tells you something as I ain't no wrench!) After "qualifying" for the ROs ( finshing four races, big deal) I made plans for a big time at the ROs. MY problem showed up in June......I ran my miata in a regional affair and found out what I had been missing since the previous November. Since then I have canceled my ROs reservations and entry, found a buyer for the Acura, sold my "A" miata and started a build on another IT miata. All that was brought on by racing in a regional where I really had a good time. I started weighing the ROs against the ARRC. (actually I would have done them both, because I won't hardly NOT go to ARRC.) Yeah I am going to miss several things at the ROs, brats, Honda Racing support, big dinners and giveaways, brats, a great track, good people, German potatoe salad, and mostly.....brats. But come November I will be sure I made the best decision ...for me. You NE guys need to watch out for an old guy with Shiner Bock putting firecrackers in your trailer...it won't be me.
I dabbled in the National Racing scene a little this year and found the goal I was racing for to be different than in the past. It was sort of an abbreviated effort which after the fact I blame on IT racing being so much fun!
With the ROs going to RAmerica this year, I decided last fall to get a SS car and make a run at going. After chasing those dang Hondas and Acuras at ARRC I decided if you can't beat'em then join'em. I got an Acura to run this season and then turn it into an ITS car. Racing Nationals was a whole different mind set for me (maybe I am different who knows). Instead of lining up and racing each race for as much fun (and speed) as I could have, I started thinking about getting enough races in to qualify. Tires were being eaten up quicker and in fewer races so I worried about the tire budget. The IT guys were doing their usual assing around antics between races and plotting to pull some crazy night time paddock mayhem.....I was over messing with my car (which tells you something as I ain't no wrench!) After "qualifying" for the ROs ( finshing four races, big deal) I made plans for a big time at the ROs. MY problem showed up in June......I ran my miata in a regional affair and found out what I had been missing since the previous November. Since then I have canceled my ROs reservations and entry, found a buyer for the Acura, sold my "A" miata and started a build on another IT miata. All that was brought on by racing in a regional where I really had a good time. I started weighing the ROs against the ARRC. (actually I would have done them both, because I won't hardly NOT go to ARRC.) Yeah I am going to miss several things at the ROs, brats, Honda Racing support, big dinners and giveaways, brats, a great track, good people, German potatoe salad, and mostly.....brats. But come November I will be sure I made the best decision ...for me. You NE guys need to watch out for an old guy with Shiner Bock putting firecrackers in your trailer...it won't be me.
JoshS
New member
What is a "feeder class?" I'm asking honestly, I want to understand this point of view. I don't understand the stepping-stone concept. Is there some sort of rule set which is naturally conducive to people who don't want to stay in the same car very long? Are people really attracted to a ruleset that cannot be a destination (other than people who sell cars?)
I've said this before and I'll say it again -- the club already has a concept of an entry-level program and a more advanced program ... it's called "regional racing" and "national racing." In any class but IT, you can do this with the same car! You don't need to have a throwaway car. That's REALLY ATTRACTIVE. It makes SM, FV, SRF, and yes, limited-production Prod, and other low-barrier-to-entry classes much better "entry level" classes than IT ... because if someone aspires to move up, they don't have to throw away the car they started with.
>> here's the problem.....a big part of the fun for the regular guys is being in the middle of a big pack, with lots of cars in the field, and still being able to "see" the guys up front. split the class into regional/national and suddenly you have much smaller fields, the front runner guys are WAY the hell out there, and suddenly you're paying higher entry fees to turn laps by yourself for 45min. THAT is a real impact to an individuals fun.
We're mixing up a bunch of factors to paint a picture of a negative outcome, without being consistent - or even really understanding - what "causes" what.
How does "split the class into regional/national" cause "much smaller fields?" That presumes that some large proportion of the CURRENT IT crowd would abandon Regionals to Exclusively run Nationals, simply because they can. This ignores that, if Racer X aspired to run Nationals, he would likely have picked a class in which he could do that in the first place.
Now, if you're talking about someone who grows into wanting to "move up" to Nationals - an Aaron Stehley or Mark Carpenter - we would have lost them anyway. We would have lost them to a National effort, but we more than likely NOT have lost them FROM IT if they had that opportunity with their existing car. They could still run local races to stay sharp and develop their tools, and done showcase IT races like the ARRC.
There is NOTHING stopping someone from having fun and drinking beer while running a National event. You just can't do that, leave a chunk of performance on the table, and expect to be competitive. If a person wants to be able to do that AND run up front - or not buy new tires, build a real engine, or test and still run up front - that can only happen in a situation absent real competitive pressures.
I have a hard time supporting any policy that is intended to decrease - or maintain low levels of - competitive pressure in IT.
K
We're mixing up a bunch of factors to paint a picture of a negative outcome, without being consistent - or even really understanding - what "causes" what.
How does "split the class into regional/national" cause "much smaller fields?" That presumes that some large proportion of the CURRENT IT crowd would abandon Regionals to Exclusively run Nationals, simply because they can. This ignores that, if Racer X aspired to run Nationals, he would likely have picked a class in which he could do that in the first place.
Now, if you're talking about someone who grows into wanting to "move up" to Nationals - an Aaron Stehley or Mark Carpenter - we would have lost them anyway. We would have lost them to a National effort, but we more than likely NOT have lost them FROM IT if they had that opportunity with their existing car. They could still run local races to stay sharp and develop their tools, and done showcase IT races like the ARRC.
There is NOTHING stopping someone from having fun and drinking beer while running a National event. You just can't do that, leave a chunk of performance on the table, and expect to be competitive. If a person wants to be able to do that AND run up front - or not buy new tires, build a real engine, or test and still run up front - that can only happen in a situation absent real competitive pressures.
I have a hard time supporting any policy that is intended to decrease - or maintain low levels of - competitive pressure in IT.
K
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shwah
New member
Another viewpoint on the theory of IT as cashcow for regions. Here in CenDiv that is certainly not the case. IT entries have been reletively sparse for the past few years. Competition level is occasionally high in a given class. ITB was pretty sharp for a few years, ITS has a solid consistent front runner that is relatively competitive at the 'big events', but there are rarely if ever double digit entries in any IT class, and usually less than 5. ITA fares the best with double dipping Miatas, but with SSM in the same group most of them just run that class.
I have not raced this year to date. If I had, I would have been the 2nd or 3rd ITB car on track each time. If I were to go enter the Nationals in HP, I would have been in a 7-15 car field every time.
Now I am the tinkering type that really likes to design a better solution, and I LIKE the prod rule set, even for the Level 1 aka full prep cars. I also like designing a better solution within a set of constraints, like we do in IT. I REALLY like racing IT at the 'big events', and had lots of fun fighting it out on track with Aaron for a few years, but with the greater contingencies and entries available in Production I think more an more about going that direction once I meet my goals in IT. I'll take it one year at a time, and hope that things change, but just wanted to illustrate that IT is not carrying club racing everywhere. Heck in CenDiv if anything carries club racing, it is SRF national stuff.
I have not raced this year to date. If I had, I would have been the 2nd or 3rd ITB car on track each time. If I were to go enter the Nationals in HP, I would have been in a 7-15 car field every time.
Now I am the tinkering type that really likes to design a better solution, and I LIKE the prod rule set, even for the Level 1 aka full prep cars. I also like designing a better solution within a set of constraints, like we do in IT. I REALLY like racing IT at the 'big events', and had lots of fun fighting it out on track with Aaron for a few years, but with the greater contingencies and entries available in Production I think more an more about going that direction once I meet my goals in IT. I'll take it one year at a time, and hope that things change, but just wanted to illustrate that IT is not carrying club racing everywhere. Heck in CenDiv if anything carries club racing, it is SRF national stuff.
explain to me then why nearly 90% of the old regional SM guys ran nationals in the first year (at least around here)?
but like i said, whatever. a nice BMW and a set of Taylor Mades is sounding pretty good to me.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Travis, using SM as an example of 'what happens to a class when it goes National' is a red-herring. It was too young, grew too fast and most of the drivers had no historical perspective.
JeffYoung
New member
Kirk, it is, I agree, all conjecture, but I feel very strongly that going National will simply split a single group of racers into two classes. All I can do is rely on the experience that I have, but in the "core" group of 10-15 ITS racers in the NC/SC area of the SEDiv, 3-5 of them are tinkerers and my guess is they would immediately go national in IT if given the chance. The esteemed Mr. Eckerich is a good example, the Van Steenburgs probably too, Ricky Thompson in ITR another.
Maybe we will attract a few new cars to ITS, but my guess is the numbers would be minimal. I think this, while a limited example, is the more likely result across classes/geographic regions.
Andy, not trying to be sarcastic, seriously just curious. You're pretty plugged into to the "big picture" with SCCA (more so than me), and I know you've said on several occasions limited prep prod is working and car numbers are increasing.
The perception I have, as well as most of the guys I race with, is that limited prep was just a gloss on dying classes. I've not seen any real numbers increase in prod car counts at regional events -- are they up at Nationals?
Maybe we will attract a few new cars to ITS, but my guess is the numbers would be minimal. I think this, while a limited example, is the more likely result across classes/geographic regions.
Andy, not trying to be sarcastic, seriously just curious. You're pretty plugged into to the "big picture" with SCCA (more so than me), and I know you've said on several occasions limited prep prod is working and car numbers are increasing.
The perception I have, as well as most of the guys I race with, is that limited prep was just a gloss on dying classes. I've not seen any real numbers increase in prod car counts at regional events -- are they up at Nationals?
shwah
New member
Travis - I don't really know you, but if you want to play the 'take your car and go home card', just play it. Threatening it over and over does nothing for us. If you like racing, then build your car the best you can and go race it, in this class or another. You have complained about a 'rumored' weight change to your car so much, I would imagine many folks that may support such an idea never considered it until they were turned on to it by you.
I understand having an expectation and faith in how things will be done, to learn that it is not quite so, but don't understand not going out and racing to prove the point, or changing sports/classes immediately to do something else, rather than knashing your teeth for months on end and threatening to quit.
Maybe this all just comes across wrong when typed on the internet...
I understand having an expectation and faith in how things will be done, to learn that it is not quite so, but don't understand not going out and racing to prove the point, or changing sports/classes immediately to do something else, rather than knashing your teeth for months on end and threatening to quit.
Maybe this all just comes across wrong when typed on the internet...
it is, and thanks for pointing it out.
i didn't mean it as a threat at all. i mean it as an example of one guy who is frustrated enough with the whole thing to be giving consideration to doing something else altogether, and that i'm probably not the only one. racing is way too big of a commitment in time and money to not be having an absolute fucking blast doing it. for me at least, the seemingly constant changing landscape and escalating 'seriousness' of it all take away from that. if it were to go national, i only see more of that forthcoming.
and no, i'm not going out and racing "to prove a point." that point is way too expensive to make, and i don't have the resources. and i wouldn't say i'd be immediately changing sports/classes. i have been doing this since 2003, and have been around racing for almost 10 years now.
PS - Jeff, i haven't noticed a significant increase in prod numbers around here either, regional or national. there's a couple more FP guys that have gone over from SM, but that's about all the "new blood" that i've seen.
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dickita15
New member
As we discuss thing like IT going national we have to remember that the situation is very different in different parts of the country. Some places like the NE have very strong regional programs, lots of races and lots of racers. In some parts of the country most of the races are national or regional national weekends. In those places you will have less people choosing IT because having a car that can run nationals means more opportunities to race.
Even here with lots of regionals I was recently talking to a regional EP driver who does not have a high level of prep and asked him why he did not race IT and he said his perception was that having a regional only car limited his options.
It may be that IT being a national class would eliminate that perceived disadvantage and cause more new drivers to choose IT.
Even here with lots of regionals I was recently talking to a regional EP driver who does not have a high level of prep and asked him why he did not race IT and he said his perception was that having a regional only car limited his options.
It may be that IT being a national class would eliminate that perceived disadvantage and cause more new drivers to choose IT.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I don't know if Prod is growing per-se Jeff, all I can look at is what is being built new. Not a guarantee of overall category growth, just a shift in what is on grid. FP is a great example. Integra's and Miata's are what is happening. VERY limited in prep allowances. Is it s gloss? Your call.
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I don't know if Prod is growing per-se Jeff, all I can look at is what is being built new. Not a guarantee of overall category growth, just a shift in what is on grid. FP is a great example. Integra's and Miata's are what is happening. VERY limited in prep allowances. Is it s gloss? Your call.
uhhh, what?
Sam Henry of Springfield Dyno (where i take my car) has a Huffaker built FP Miata. maybe it's limited prep per Production class standards, but it is a LONG LONG ways from IT.
~$8k taylor gearbox, re-engineered suspension geometry, Penske RR shocks, fiberglass bodywork (with aero consideration), alternate ignition source (changed to crankfire ignition), i believe he can go with a completely different valvetrain including cams, etc...