Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Trav, that's the point. LP SEEMS to be more attractive to people who are willing to build new cars for Prod.
Big Picture of IT - Share Your Opinions
- Thread starter Knestis
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Trav, that's the point. LP SEEMS to be more attractive to people who are willing to build new cars for Prod.
Bill Miller
New member
tnord said:
Travis,
I'm really having a hard time understanding the logic you're applying here. One of the reasons that you see 'escalating seriousness' in IT, is because there's only one sandbox for them to play in, Regional races. While having IT go National may up the game a bit at the National level, I (and others have as well) submit that IT racing at the Regional level would be a whole lot more fun for the guys that didn't want to (or could afford to) spend cubic dollars. It's been stated over and over again, look at a Regional Prod program vs. a National Prod program. Believe me when I tell you that they're night and day.
Kirk,
I can see a scenario where IT going National will probably siphon off some of the Regional folks. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. And I don't agree w/ your contention that if RacerX wanted to go National racing, he already would have gone, or he's going to eventually be lost from IT anyway. Sure, you'll have some guys that go that route, but several people have talked about IT as a destination, not as a stepping stone. I think it's completely valid to think that you've got plenty of IT guys that will stay in IT. They've got the budgets and the skills to be competitive at the National level, but an IT car is what they want to run. I can see top-tier IT folks going National, in search of better competition. I can see plenty of folks staying at the Regional level, and possibly even more coming in. Ask yourself, why does anybody race a National-eligible car at the Regional level? Less pressure, lower budgets, less travel, etc., etc.
I personally think IT going National is a win/win all the way around. You've got a great category with some fast folks that put on a good show. You now have a lower-stress environment (Regionals) where someone can run one of those cars, develop it, develop themselves, and maybe eventually go National racing.
People talk about a feeder class, what is really there, is a feeder 'environment'. That 'environment' is Regional racing. I don't see how anyone can say that IT is a feeder category when you've got some serious programs that run in IT. If I were starting out, I'd much rather have a lower stress 'environment' to run a car in, regardless of what car or category I picked. People talk about IT as a feeder class, mainly due to the historical view that people had of IT, and the fact that it really never got any respect as a category. Being branded Regional-only by the PtB created this artificial sense that IT wasn't a serious category, but a place to starte, and when you decided you wanted to drive a 'real' race car, you'd go Prod, GT, etc., etc.
All this talk about making IT National is interesting... Especially when they are reducing the number of classes at the RO's and have literally said "no new national classes"
A new class "F6" is in the process of being developed on the regional level atm. These are basically F5's with 600cc 4 stroke motorcycle engines (r6, GSXR, etc.) The only option they are being given to exist at the national level is to combine with F5...
A new class "F6" is in the process of being developed on the regional level atm. These are basically F5's with 600cc 4 stroke motorcycle engines (r6, GSXR, etc.) The only option they are being given to exist at the national level is to combine with F5...
seckerich
New member
We already have way too many classes now. Just a reality check: LP prod Mazda RX7 to run up front will run you 35,000 plus. I have built 2 in the last 2 years and it is very easy to go north of $50,000 quick. Motors run $8,000 with no Motec. That is extra. Shocks over $6,000 and up. Only reason we have limited prep was to bring down the RPM and power range of the hand grenade motors. I always took 2 motors per weekend with my Triumph. 9000 rpm in a tractor motor with 14.5 compression was a nightmare. Now somehow a discussion on the process V2 has come full circle to National/regional again. Budget $2000 a race for a national run and plan on buying more stickers than you ever imagined. If IT went national tomorrow it would raise the price of poker for everyone involved.
another reality check; i know of a FP Miata that got built for $50k+.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
The money arguement is stupid. Please guys. If you have a top shop do a top car - for you - with all the bells and whistles - ANY car is going to run you north of $40K. If you don't believe it, I will send you some spreadsheets.
I couldn't agree more with Miller's post above.
I couldn't agree more with Miller's post above.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
What about an ego has anything to do with what a prep shop will charge to do a ground-up no-expense-spared car?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Well, I don't. Sorry if that is offensive to you. I have my budget and I race to it. It's all I can do. We have large fields and cars that are uber-developed up here. Not just one, but many. What is it about the Northeastern or Southeastern IT scenes that you know that makes you disbelieve? These are the backyards of IT-centric (at one point) businesses like Speedsource, BimmerWorld, ISC Racing, FOM, Kessler Engineering, etc.
Having said that, just because it won't effect ME, doesn't mean it's good for IT on the whole. Looking at the potential effects through SM-colored glasses is not the right thing to do as has been explained by a few people. I really do think Bill has it right in his post. But again, we have no recent historical data to look upon when a mature category goes national. All we can do is make educated guesses.
If it does ever go national, I hope that the CRB and BoD feel that it will be good for IT AND Club Racing in general.
Having said that, just because it won't effect ME, doesn't mean it's good for IT on the whole. Looking at the potential effects through SM-colored glasses is not the right thing to do as has been explained by a few people. I really do think Bill has it right in his post. But again, we have no recent historical data to look upon when a mature category goes national. All we can do is make educated guesses.
If it does ever go national, I hope that the CRB and BoD feel that it will be good for IT AND Club Racing in general.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
And I think that it has been accurately portrayed what it would do to IT in any area where IT was a more casual environment. Take Prather. I bet he would have some customers that would want to get in. He builds them a 10-10ths car, gets good money for it and if driven well, it blows up all the current IT records. Good for IT? Who knows. More drivers, better quality entries but the rest of the current class has to up there game on most fronts. Probably depends who you ask if it was a good thing - evel locally.
In my mind, its the weighing of the various parts of the country and making a decision for the whole that is the tough call.
I still think Bill is on the money from 10,000 feet however. Regional races for National classes are VERY casual compared to their National counterparts in non-spec classes. Patullo's point way back I think.
In my mind, its the weighing of the various parts of the country and making a decision for the whole that is the tough call.
I still think Bill is on the money from 10,000 feet however. Regional races for National classes are VERY casual compared to their National counterparts in non-spec classes. Patullo's point way back I think.
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Bill Miller
New member
And THAT Travis, is why I think you have this skewed view of how IT going National will raise the costs for everyone that wants to run IT. You're looking at it from the typical me-centric view. You like the current level of competition in IT in your own little fish bowl. You like where you are on the grid, w/o a Prather-like effort. If IT were to go National, you'd want to stay at your current level of competition. And since you view the other categories that run Regionals in your area as "a joke" (your words), you might have to step up to Nationals. Problem is, you will have guys that will show up w/ Prather-like efforts. So for you to maintain your current slot on the grid you will have to up your game.
Your comment about Regional (other than IT) racing in your area does two things. One, it shows that you are condescending, and have no respect for your fellow racers, and two, pretty much proves my point that IT going National won't increase costs for everyone.
seckerich said:
Steve,
Please see my above comment to Travis.
You folks that keep trotting this out, do so in the face of some pretty hard evidence to the contrarty. All those people running National-eligible cars at the Regional level would almost certainly disagree with you.
Andy,
This has really been my position all along w.r.t. IT going National. I may not have always articulated it that well, but that's what I've always believe, and always tried to get across.
spawpoet
New member
In all honesty how much of the extra cost of a prod car national effort over regional IT is specifically because it's a National effort, and how much of the delta cost is because of the differences in prep levels of an IT car and a 10/10th prod car? We don't run 9000 rpm in IT, and we aren't crackin' our motors open after almost every event, and we don't get to run $6000 r/r shocks. That's really due to the ruleset, not to the fact that we aren't running nationals. I would do better (for less money) points wise in my region running EP than I will in ITS. IMHO the level of competition in IT in the SE has already raised the bar to the limit in terms of what you have to spend to run up front anyway. I'm not necessarily for IT going national, but increased costs aren't a viable reason against IMHO.
give me a fucking break bill.
I am one of the ones causing the increased prep levels in our division, and the best ITA car around here is basically a Prather car being driven by a multi-time Runoffs winner.
when a 3 car field is a good turnout for a regional class, that's a fucking joke
you guys sure aren't doing anything to disprove your regional stereotypes.
I am one of the ones causing the increased prep levels in our division, and the best ITA car around here is basically a Prather car being driven by a multi-time Runoffs winner.
when a 3 car field is a good turnout for a regional class, that's a fucking joke
you guys sure aren't doing anything to disprove your regional stereotypes.
shwah
New member
Most common mistaken assumption in club racing is that a front running Level 2 Production car is significantly less expensive to build than a front running Level 1 Production car.
I like that the two prep levels give me two classes to consider should I ever decide to convert my car to prod, but don't see either route costing a lot less than the other.
I like that the two prep levels give me two classes to consider should I ever decide to convert my car to prod, but don't see either route costing a lot less than the other.
Trav, the best ITA car up there is yellow! Ray's may be the best driven.
I guess the best thing would be for IT to go National EAST of the Mississippi River and stay the same to the WEST.
Bye Bye ARRC and Fest. Maybe we could have a big ol blowout race type party in the IT Regional Nation (West) at say .......Topeka....naw that didn't even work for "The Fiesta"! We might ought to rethink.
And Bill, Travis is right at the front of a group of MidDiv IT guys "spending and prepping" their little butts off. (that may be why he tends to be so cranky!)
This has been hashed and rehashed, some think it would be just grand for IT to be racing at the "RAmerica Fiesta". Some think it wouldn't be so grand. This little forum won't probably change either sides opinion. The alphabet groups control things, you got to convince them.......and Jeff don't let'em brainwash ya!
I guess the best thing would be for IT to go National EAST of the Mississippi River and stay the same to the WEST.
Bye Bye ARRC and Fest. Maybe we could have a big ol blowout race type party in the IT Regional Nation (West) at say .......Topeka....naw that didn't even work for "The Fiesta"! We might ought to rethink.And Bill, Travis is right at the front of a group of MidDiv IT guys "spending and prepping" their little butts off. (that may be why he tends to be so cranky!)
This has been hashed and rehashed, some think it would be just grand for IT to be racing at the "RAmerica Fiesta". Some think it wouldn't be so grand. This little forum won't probably change either sides opinion. The alphabet groups control things, you got to convince them.......and Jeff don't let'em brainwash ya!
Bill Miller
New member
Travis,
You're doing a damned good job proving my point for me. Sounds like the biggest reason why your car isn't at the front, is the nut behind the wheel.