Depends... in the parts cataloques is it considered part of the stock intake system?
Cold-Air Intakes (CAI) for 88-91 CRX Illegal
- Thread starter Gregg
- Start date
Depends... in the parts cataloques is it considered part of the stock intake system?
JeffYoung
New member
Removeable as engine trim perhaps?
As I think through Christian and Gary's responses (both excellent) my concern with this crystallized.
What truly is the stock pickup location for a true ram air, outside the car pickup? Like I said, I could argue that the air that ends up in front of my fender well actually starts its journey there from the big air box I built in the snouth of the car (tubes and such being free) because, in reality it does?
If that is what we are saying, then I guess I need to consider that. Building a big air box/scoop in front of the radiator with hoses that lead into the engine bay through the stock fender holes.
Legal?
As I think through Christian and Gary's responses (both excellent) my concern with this crystallized.
What truly is the stock pickup location for a true ram air, outside the car pickup? Like I said, I could argue that the air that ends up in front of my fender well actually starts its journey there from the big air box I built in the snouth of the car (tubes and such being free) because, in reality it does?
If that is what we are saying, then I guess I need to consider that. Building a big air box/scoop in front of the radiator with hoses that lead into the engine bay through the stock fender holes.
Legal?
the picup point is the terminal upstream portion of the primary intact ducting as equipped from stock. if there was a snorkel through the fender that ended at some roughly fixed point within that space, you may place a filter or snorkel in roughly that same space. the openings through the fenders may be enlarged for the piping as the piping is open. no other modifcations to the body or other sheetmetal may be made, and no other pickup points are allowed.
what I am reading from you is that you devise an elaborate system to duct the air through the stock inlet location. this would be illegal, a "tourtured" rule as the COA put it.
As I see it, if your car had a stock ram air snout that was in front of the radiator, then YES you could build a better snout and stick it in the same place as stock. You can't add a snout where there wasn't one before, you can't move the intake snout from the inner fender to in front of the radiator, and you can't run your new and improved snout outside of the stock location in front of the radiator to the leading edge of the bumper.
I'm not aware of any manufacturer that has a ram air "outside the car pickup". At that point, we'd be talking about a ram air snout protruding out of the bumper into the on-coming air stream... is this what you're talking about? Something that protrudes from the vehicle's silhouette? All the ram air that I've seen either had a hood scoop for the "pickup point" or some sort of snout behind the grill or headlight bucket and in front of or beside the radiator.
Again, the way I find it easiest to think about it is by visualizing the point in space where the air initially goes into the stock intake system. THIS (a point in space) is where the "stock location" is, IMO.
I'm not aware of any manufacturer that has a ram air "outside the car pickup". At that point, we'd be talking about a ram air snout protruding out of the bumper into the on-coming air stream... is this what you're talking about? Something that protrudes from the vehicle's silhouette? All the ram air that I've seen either had a hood scoop for the "pickup point" or some sort of snout behind the grill or headlight bucket and in front of or beside the radiator.
Again, the way I find it easiest to think about it is by visualizing the point in space where the air initially goes into the stock intake system. THIS (a point in space) is where the "stock location" is, IMO.
JoshS
New member
What? You are saying that you can make illegal modifications in order to facilitate legal ones? I don't think so ...
Where does it say you can open up stock holes in the sheetmetal? Just b/c piping is open doesn't mean that modification to the chassis is...
JeffYoung
New member
Guys, good thinking, but I don't buy it. I'm not going to do it, but I think since the rules says air in "stock location" and I can argue that air enters the intake track in the void --within the bodywork -- in front of the radiator, and since hoses, tubes and pipes in front of the carb/throttle body are free, that I can string together hoses and pipes pretty much anywhere along the flow of air from "outside" the car to the intake location.
Chip, I'm with you, I don't think that is the intent of the rule -- I think the intent is as you describe, but when you join the "stock location" rule (undefined or limited in any way) with the free hoses and tubes then you get my "Air Snake."
Air Snake. I like that.
Chip, I'm with you, I don't think that is the intent of the rule -- I think the intent is as you describe, but when you join the "stock location" rule (undefined or limited in any way) with the free hoses and tubes then you get my "Air Snake."
Air Snake. I like that.
Bzzzzzt. Wrong answer. 
I'm going to continue to politely disagree with you Jeff. The stock intake has an opening where the air enters the intake tract. THAT is the stock location. You can argue that the air that enters your Air Snake actually starts further up stream but if your stock intake doesn't go as far as the Air Snake then you are illlleeeeegul. Arguing a stance doesn't make it tenable. See Ginsberg vs. Moser 2008.
My approach to the intake is going to be to head "down and forward" relative to the engine. Plenty of good "cold air" on the underside of the car and it's all within the confines of the loosely described "engine bay" area.
I'm going to continue to politely disagree with you Jeff. The stock intake has an opening where the air enters the intake tract. THAT is the stock location. You can argue that the air that enters your Air Snake actually starts further up stream but if your stock intake doesn't go as far as the Air Snake then you are illlleeeeegul. Arguing a stance doesn't make it tenable. See Ginsberg vs. Moser 2008. My approach to the intake is going to be to head "down and forward" relative to the engine. Plenty of good "cold air" on the underside of the car and it's all within the confines of the loosely described "engine bay" area.
JeffYoung
New member
My Air Snake will kick your head down ass!
Seriously though, I'm not going to do it. I'm building a "Nascar" air box under the cowl, inside the engine bay, and entirely legal.
But I think coupling the free pipes rule with basically an undefined stock location is asking for trouble.
We don't define stock location anywhere. My car just has a hole with a pipe attached to it. Does that mean I can't still a filter on the other side of the hole? I think most of you guys say I could, but once you do that, you arguing that the stock pickup location is defined by a point in the "air stream" itself, and not by a tube or bodywork, and then the arguments start about where the limits of the intake air stream are.
Seriously though, I'm not going to do it. I'm building a "Nascar" air box under the cowl, inside the engine bay, and entirely legal.
But I think coupling the free pipes rule with basically an undefined stock location is asking for trouble.
We don't define stock location anywhere. My car just has a hole with a pipe attached to it. Does that mean I can't still a filter on the other side of the hole? I think most of you guys say I could, but once you do that, you arguing that the stock pickup location is defined by a point in the "air stream" itself, and not by a tube or bodywork, and then the arguments start about where the limits of the intake air stream are.
JoshS
New member
Not me. I think you can do anything you want between the upstream physical edge of the stock system (the hole in your example) and the throttle body/MAF, but you can't move the physical entry point to another location that's not "inside the engine compartment".
JeffYoung
New member
I agree. But I think you have hit on the rub. Define "upstream physical edge of teh stock system."
The hole is a part of it. But certainly the air enters and makes turns through the radiator opening and then the void inside the front fender well -- all physical edges -- before entering the engine bay through the hole in the fender well.
Where I am going with this is while I don't like adding or "clarifying" rules, and not sure we should do so here because the intent is clear (to me anyway) I think we are asking for trouble. Someone is going to build an Air Snake and honestly it looks arguably legal.
The hole is a part of it. But certainly the air enters and makes turns through the radiator opening and then the void inside the front fender well -- all physical edges -- before entering the engine bay through the hole in the fender well.
Where I am going with this is while I don't like adding or "clarifying" rules, and not sure we should do so here because the intent is clear (to me anyway) I think we are asking for trouble. Someone is going to build an Air Snake and honestly it looks arguably legal.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Jeff, any pics of the stock stuff?
JoshS
New member
Gotcha.
Two points:
1) There's a big difference between the "radiator opening entry point" and the downstream "air intake duct hole entry point." Air entering the former goes all over the place. Air entering the latter goes ONLY into the engine, and it ALL goes into the engine.
2) IMO, We don't need a rule to clarify these entry points. Too many words only make it possible to find more gray. Under the current wording, I think it's highly likely that the same people that ruled on the ARRC protest would find your proposed intake illegal, and that's the way it should be. I think we agree on that.
Why??
Jeff,
If I could pull air legally from outside the hood....er engine compartment.........should I say..... In a heart beat.... the snake would rule!!!! Your original equipment "Snake" may be of small penetration into the well, but why give up 30-40 degree air advantage? Hell, with your "negative" rear camber you be crazy anyways........Its legal... OTOH....cowl induction could be facilitated with spring loaded hood latches I guess.....I have seen a few Z hoods rise on occasion at sppeed
Take advantage of whaT YA got.
david
Jeff,
If I could pull air legally from outside the hood....er engine compartment.........should I say..... In a heart beat.... the snake would rule!!!! Your original equipment "Snake" may be of small penetration into the well, but why give up 30-40 degree air advantage? Hell, with your "negative" rear camber you be crazy anyways........Its legal... OTOH....cowl induction could be facilitated with spring loaded hood latches I guess.....I have seen a few Z hoods rise on occasion at sppeed
Take advantage of whaT YA got.
david
Gary L
New member
Here's the parts catalog drawing of a stock Volvo 142E setup. I'm currently simply running a K&N cone filter that's clamped to the forward end of the intake manifold. But I'd like to take the filter "outdoors", putting it in the location defined by the forward end of stock part #5 (which normally protudes 3 or 4 inches through the RH radiator support). Part #6 grommet would be thrown away, and in place of part #5 would be a constant diameter tube. The K&N cone would be clamped to the forward end of that tube, then a hose similar to #3 would connect it to the forward end of the intake manifold.
Seems to me this would constitute a legal setup, but I would welcome any comments.
Seems to me this would constitute a legal setup, but I would welcome any comments.
Gary L
New member
The problem in my mind, as stated in an earlier post... is part #6. If I can't legally throw that part away, the scheme goes down the toilet IMO. Part #6 is thicker than the drawing represents; if left in place, it would force a much smaller tube to be used for the pass-through. Cooler air is great, but if I have to sacrifice half the cross sectional area of the tube, no thanks... I'll just duct some air towards the current filter location at the forward end of the intake manifold and let it go at that.
JeffYoung
New member
Now Christian, us V8 RWD guys read the rules too......
You've seen my car. There is a space behind the plenum (where the carbs are now) that sits under a slotted grate on the hood. The grate is where the car used to taked in air to the vents into the cabin. Entirely legal to put a box under that and draw air there.
David, I truly don't think the Air Snake is legal given the INTENT of the rule, but I agree with you I see the "do what you want" if stock is outside the engine bay as well.
Gary, you are legal. I consider that o-ring to be part of the "pipes/tubes/resonators" ahead of the carb/AFM that you can modify/replace, etc. It's free. Take it out, replace with bigger tube.
Andy, I'll take some pictures of my car this weekend and send them to you for your thoughts.
You've seen my car. There is a space behind the plenum (where the carbs are now) that sits under a slotted grate on the hood. The grate is where the car used to taked in air to the vents into the cabin. Entirely legal to put a box under that and draw air there.
David, I truly don't think the Air Snake is legal given the INTENT of the rule, but I agree with you I see the "do what you want" if stock is outside the engine bay as well.
Gary, you are legal. I consider that o-ring to be part of the "pipes/tubes/resonators" ahead of the carb/AFM that you can modify/replace, etc. It's free. Take it out, replace with bigger tube.
Andy, I'll take some pictures of my car this weekend and send them to you for your thoughts.
Maybe...
Ummm... you mean a cowl induction system?
retract that. don't know what I was thinking...
Gary - you can throw out the grommet, just don't plumb the intake forward of the hole the grommet filled. that way no one can argue that you are violating any rule at all. if you want to stick a hose roughly the size of that hole out as far as the stock piece, then be prepared to prove it is correct with measurements, but it would be legal.
jeff - if you place a filter under the cabin inlets in the cowl, fine. but if you seal an enclosed box to it and the intake, that is cowl induction, and it is illegal.
just keep it simple and away from the need for subjective interpretation and everyone is fine. trust me - the tech inspectors are all great people but not all in agreement with each other or the competitors about what is and is not legal.
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