Confusing Split Start – Hopefully a Learning Opportunity

G

gran racing

Super Moderator
At last weekend’s Watkins Glen national, they decided to have a triple split start to give some separation between the classes in group 1 that had 72 cars. Something I’ve never seen before but overall worked out quite well.

Glen Track Map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...06!Watkins_Glen_International_Circuit_Map.png


After taking the left hand turn 10, I intently watched the corner workers in turn 11 to see if they dropped the double yellow. The pole car in our split start of showroom stock (SSB car) was just ahead of me and on the same portion of the track. He started picking up his pace, but the double flags in turn 11 remained. Unexpectedly the 3rd place SSC car went around me, and was directly in front of me (not side-by-side) and gained a position. The double yellow flags were still being displayed and we still had not passed this flag station. I wasn’t quiet sure what to do at that point. We reached the front straight and the green was being waived.

Once the race was completed, I spoke with the driver about the situation and wondered what caused him to go before the yellow flags were removed. I made it clear that his passing me wouldn't have impacted our finishing position and would be a good learning experience for both of us. He was a bit confused about the whole situation as well. He had a spotter on the front straight to call the start, and the green was being waived which prompted him to make the pass when he did. It was quite odd that the green was being waived for our split start well before the leader of this field could possibly see the starter stand.

I also spoke with the driver of the car who was leading this split field. He was given orders by stewards to go once he received the green. Not sure why that needed to be said, but maybe there’s more to it that I’m not aware of? He apologized for going earlier than when we could see the starter, but his spotter was also telling him that the green flag was being waived then.

I believe that the starter should not have given the green when they did. If this were to happen again, as each of these three drivers (pole, 3rd place starting position, and myself) what would / should have been done?
 
I had no idea what was going on :shrug:, sure would have been nice for them to tell us.
I guess the stewards are just like most drivers and don't read the GCR either :023:
 
After talking w/Dave about it (I was hanging out but didn't actually see the start), it SOUNDS like they didn't do a true split start. They just reshuffled the grid to put the classes in bunches, with some separation between them.

I fall back on, "our races are - and have always been - multi-class groups and we just have do deal with the realities of that." Making stuff up as we go along only confuses people, confused people make mistakes on the track, and mistakes can bend up cars and people.

K
 
From my perspective, the INTENT of the stewards was to simply give some starting space between the Touring cars (in front), the Miata hoard (in the middle), and the Showroom Stock crowd (in the back). What they wanted was not to have multiple green-flag starts (the traditional "split start"), but to simply give the three groups some initial breathing room at the single-green start.

Two problems borked that idea up: one, that info was not communicated to drivers in advance and not all of them had radios to know when the race started; and two, not all flag stations dropped their yellows immediately when the first group got the green. The result was the confusion you guys experienced.

Two comments:

- Regardless of what may be happening up front or any place else on the track, drivers are controlled by the flags in their location. That means that the driver that passed Dave under the double-yellow was wrong, wrong, wrong, REGARDLESS that he knew the track was supposed to be green. LOCAL FLAGS OVERRULE ALL.

- This is the PERFECT use of a driver's meeting, to communicate information to drivers that was not previously given in the GCR, supps, or registration handouts. Instead we insist on gathering drivers - much to their inconvenience - to introduce stewards, telling everyone to obey the yellow flags and to follow the GCR, and telling everyone to not hit each other. Yeah well, thanks a ton for that insight. I suggest in this particular situation that this revised procedure was decided at the last minute on Sunday (it was not done on Saturday). It was a great idea - one that should be considered again - but it was not communicated; maybe an "impound all" for a quick chat after the Sunday AM qually was in order?

And while we're on a rant, the Watkins Glen track is getting really effin stoopid on their procedures. A 2-hour delay to repair a wall, the last hour so that - according to rumor - the paint could dry??? Going full-course to pull cars out of areas that was well out of the way (IMO, and I recognize I didn't have all the info)? Of all the sessions over the weekend, what percentage were able to go all the way without a black flag all or a full-course caution? did any? I think Group 3 got a total of maybe 20 racing laps the entire weekend, and that included both green and full-course!

I will give one "prop" for the handling of the end of Group 3 on Sunday: an EP Miata pounded the outside wall in the last turn two laps from the end (of the very-shortened 8-lap-of-14-originally-scheduled) race. As I came through the corner and saw the waving yellow, then saw the car stopped up against the wall, I rolled my eyes expecting Yet Another Full Course Yellow. Didn't happen. I'm guessing (read: assuming) that the stewards recognized the car was very visible, covered well by flags, and that competitors would recognize the situation and compromise their lines for the last two laps. And, it appears everyone did. Kudos for not shortening what was already a shortened "race"....

Watkins Glen is quickly becoming the place you hate to love, but love to hate... - GA
 
While I agree with Greg's comments for the most part.....


Greg Amy said:
A 2-hour delay to repair a wall, the last hour so that - according to rumor - the paint could dry???
Click to expand...

...let's put an end to ^^^this bullshit^^^ right now.

T2 car pounded the wall head-on at ~110mph after losing brakes. Impact bowed armco back 2.5-3ft, and split the center piece in half. There were 20+ people working with multiple backhoes, torches etc. to replace vertical supports (6+) and ~40 feet of rail. Cars were on-track within 5 minutes of the last bolt being tightened.

Whoever came up with the "paint" rumor needs to be publically pantsed.
 
Knestis said:
Making stuff up as we go along only confuses people, confused people make mistakes on the track, and mistakes can bend up cars and people.
Click to expand...

How true is this. If you're going to do a split start, why not do it properly, with separate green flags for each group? You know if the first group gets the green that the second (and third? that's a new one) group will get one as well, but the starter still has control of the field and when to show the second green.

Also, Greg is right that local flags rule, but double yellow is not a local flag. Green flags and double yellows are mutually exclusive. If there is only one green flag shown for the whole group, then all stations should drop their double yellows (or rather, all stations should be instructed to drop their double yellows) when the green flag flies. Racing begins for everybody when the green flag is waved, whether they can see it or not. Not a good situation and sort of defeats the purpose of the split start, IMHO.

Having been in race control for many split starts, I can tell you they are not that easy to do well. Ideally you want the second group about 30 seconds behind the first group (depending on the track), but it's extremely hard to make that happen when the second group can't see the first group, doesn't know how fast they are going, race control can't see either group, may not have radio communication with the pace car for the second group (if there is a pace car) to speed them up or slow them down. It's hard to adjust the split once the pace lap is underway.
 
the last hour so that - according to rumor - the paint could dry???
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the person said that as a mere joke about the length of time it was taking. Most people had no idea what was going on but it was announced on the PA system that there would be a delay, and races would be resumed at 2:30 (I believe). Cars didn't go out until much later. I don't doubt the effort, work, and timing of everything but it was a long delay even if totally necessary.
 
JohnRW said:
Whoever came up with the "paint" rumor needs to be publically pantsed.
Click to expand...
Pace car. And he said it with a straight face, implying he got it "from on high" (hey, he had the radios)...and when I replied "are you serious???" he confirmed it, even noting it was "the second coat of paint"... :shrug:
 
Last edited:
If not a true "split start", but only a single start with gaps between the groups, then once it's green the ENTIRE track is green and racing begins. The double yellows should have been dropped when the green came out.

However, if it was a split start then each group has to wait to see the green from the starter prior to racing.
 
T3 and SM were sent out, then they held all SS cars on pre grid.
Lead SS car was told to stay the lenth of the straight behind.

We (the SS group) left pit lane at almost race speed to try and catch up.
I was the third car in the group and we never saw the lead group.
Coming out of the boot the lead SS car took off, so did everyone else.

Was it a split start or split grid?
No second pace car!
The only one given any instruction was the lead SS car.

So, What the hell was it?:shrug:
 
I intently watched the flag station for the double yellow to be removed, but nothing. After the pass, I was totally confused as what to do. It was quiet frustrating.
 
I see no other way for it to be Dave. You looked for the one sign of a green flag (when you can't see it) and it wasn't there.

The flag station displaying the doubles dropped the ball.
 
...but double yellow is not a local flag.
Click to expand...

Sure it is. Unless my memory fails me (possible), back in the olden days, when the course went FCY, every station went to a waving yellow. The "double yellow" was introduced to make it clear from the observation of ONE station that the pace car was coming out, where in the past one had to see a whole slew of waving yellows.

What if the green had come out and everyone crashed into one another in T1, blocking the entire track? If control called an alert and rolled the pace car, that double yellow before the start might have been the only - and certainly the earliest - warning that the trailing group got.

The question then becomes, can you pass locally under a double yellow? I think not. Dave's guy should have gotten pinged, as should the flagger at that station.

Again - I think we complicate this aspect of the game WAY too much. It's multi-class racing. Deal with it. Sometimes the chips fall in your favor in qualifying, sometimes not. A talented driver will maximize his/her chances given the cards dealt and the whole point of racing is to sort the talent to the front of the finishing order.

K
 
Andy Bettencourt said:
The flag station displaying the doubles dropped the ball.
Click to expand...

Andy I wouldn't assume it was the flag station who dropped the ball. Race control may have forgotten to tell them to drop their yellow flags. (If it was the only station with YY that's a different story.) Either way, if the YY is up then you have to obey it. Did anyone approach either the CS or the Operating Steward afterward to let them know what happened? It was, after all, a pass under yellow, whether or not the flaggers saw/reported it.

BTW, the GCR is fairly clear on how cars are to be positioned on the grid and on how split starts are done (see 6.4.2.B and 6.5.2.A & D). It doesn't sound like this start conformed to the GCR and the ensuing confusion is understandable. It was probably just as confusing to the flaggers.
 
Greg Amy said:
- Regardless of what may be happening up front or any place else on the track, drivers are controlled by the flags in their location. That means that the driver that passed Dave under the double-yellow was wrong, wrong, wrong, REGARDLESS that he knew the track was supposed to be green. LOCAL FLAGS OVERRULE ALL.
Click to expand...

If the field is using a true split start, then local flags rule. If the field is not, then once the green waves, the course is green and the double-yellow is meaningless. Advantage to having a radio.

ner88 said:
T3 and SM were sent out, then they held all SS cars on pre grid.
Lead SS car was told to stay the lenth of the straight behind.

We (the SS group) left pit lane at almost race speed to try and catch up.
I was the third car in the group and we never saw the lead group.
Coming out of the boot the lead SS car took off, so did everyone else.

Was it a split start or split grid?
No second pace car!
The only one given any instruction was the lead SS car.

So, What the hell was it?:shrug:
Click to expand...

A cluster... a fubar?

Knestis said:
Sure it is. Unless my memory fails me (possible), back in the olden days, when the course went FCY, every station went to a waving yellow. The "double yellow" was introduced to make it clear from the observation of ONE station that the pace car was coming out, where in the past one had to see a whole slew of waving yellows.
Click to expand...

6.11.2 (Sporting Regs) DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS — Indicates the entire course is under a yellow condition. SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. This flag condition may be used with or without a Pace (Safety) Car, including pace lap(s).
​
That's what it might have meant back during the Younger Dryas, but now it just means the entire course is under a yellow condition and if start is waving a green, that cannot be true.

Anyone going to pit because they see a single station displaying a black flag?

Heck, I worked a weekend where a FCY was called during qualifying for a large group. Worked great! Drivers slowed down, car got yanked and we went back to green giving the drivers more track time than they would have had with a BFA. never saw a pace car.

What if the green had come out and everyone crashed into one another in T1, blocking the entire track? If control called an alert and rolled the pace car, that double yellow before the start might have been the only - and certainly the earliest - warning that the trailing group got.
Click to expand...

This is the procedure I was told to use if an incident occurs at the beginning of an race that requires start to display any flag in addition to the green.

1. The starter continues to wave the green flag, indicating that the race has begun.
2. Backup displays the appropriate flag.

I.e. The starter is waving the green and someone else whips out the double yellow or single yellow.

No green at start means the folks who didn't see the green start double file.

Again - I think we complicate this aspect of the game WAY too much. It's multi-class racing. Deal with it. Sometimes the chips fall in your favor in qualifying, sometimes not. A talented driver will maximize his/her chances given the cards dealt and the whole point of racing is to sort the talent to the front of the finishing order.
K
Click to expand...

I can see situations that call for a split grid. We've got a slew of ITS cars that run mid-pack ITB times. If we started everyone in a herd, the ITS cars are going to use their HP to get in front of the ITB race on the run down to turn 1. They will then park it in the turns turning a good B race into a matter of who is lucky enough not to get stuck behind the S cars. We use a split start, with bona fide pace cars for the two groups. Second group has start judges because we know we are getting the green, but so far, we haven't needed them.

I think 90 cars for a sprint race at VIR calls for a split start. Not doing that is only asking for trouble from the accordian effect.

Why ask for trouble or bodywork when a simple and easy procedure makes things a little more enjoyable and safe for everyone?
 
jjjanos said:
If the field is using a true split start, then local flags rule. If the field is not, then once the green waves, the course is green and the double-yellow is meaningless. Advantage to having a radio.
Click to expand...

I disagree... Yellows means it is a yellow radios or no radios.

How is the driver that was involved in that accident?

Raymond
 
In Cal-Club we hold the double yellows untill the pace car passes a predetermined corner, in this case maybe turn nine-toe of the boot. If the whole track went green at the first group, then the double yellows should have been dropped for the whole track when the pace car got to turn nine. Sounds like someones land-line was down.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top