Confusing Split Start – Hopefully a Learning Opportunity

[Andy Bettencourt]

You didn't answer the question. Do you always wait to pass until you reach the next flag station?

If not, how did you know that you are clear of the incident?

Nope. I keep up a decent pace until I see the incident (and pass it) and can see the next flag station (and then determine what to do based on what they have - if anything - waving). Remember, there can be more than one incident. The two flag stands holding yellows have created a 'pocket' of no passing. You simply can't do it.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Fine, then what flag would you expect would be displayed?

Who cares? You tell me what flag is showing and I will tell you how I would react. I am a driver, not a flagger.

 

[spawpoet]

Nope. I keep up a decent pace until I see the incident (and pass it) and can see the next flag station (and then determine what to do based on what they have - if anything - waving). Remember, there can be more than one incident. The two flag stands holding yellows have created a 'pocket' of no passing. You simply can't do it.

This is the textbook answer. A drivers job is simply to listen to what the cornerworkers tell them with their flags. If you aren't 100% sure you are past the incident you react as if you are under yellow.

 

[Greg Amy]

I don't know why you guys are pissing in the wind trying to argue this.

Yellow flag? No passing.

No exceptions.

It's really that simple.


Let JJJANOS fight it out with the Chief Steward. Or his ER surgeon, whichever comes first...

 

[JohnRW]

Lol. A continuing attempt at "thread trajectory nannying"....

...as you may have realized that you're in so deep that your ears have popped and and the canary has died.

I point you again to 6.1.1. The language is explicit. Your reference to an "unwritten SOP" is silly. Setting up a hypothetical event won't get you off the hook here.

You previously stated...

And at this track, you can see

and I'll simply state that you're wrong. Have you ever raced at Watkins Glen ?

Por exemplo - The "Off-camber Left" - something nasty happens at the exit there...Station 15 goes waving, but if you're in heavy race traffic, there is a HIGH likelyhood that you won't see it as you turn into T9, so having a backup "standing" at Station 14 is very important. Same deal with the Esses and Stations 4 and 5 - at 100+mph, do you want to first see the problem as you cross the tunnel ? Ummm...no. Same deal at Station 16-17, the subject of this debate - If you're in traffic (and the subjects of this debate were in traffic), you don't have a lot of time to catch sight of Station 17 before you turn into T11, and you have a pretty good chance of NOT seeing the Miata on the wall on the outside edge of the track as you do. Station 16 may go standing at the request of 17, since 16 is on the OTHER SIDE OF THE TRACK and will give the LARGE CROWD OF CARS a "heads-up".

So...not to harp on your mis-reading of 6.1.1....but tell us again, just so we can giggle.

 

[Wreckerboy]

Nope. I keep up a decent pace until I see the incident (and pass it) and can see the next flag station (and then determine what to do based on what they have - if anything - waving). Remember, there can be more than one incident. The two flag stands holding yellows have created a 'pocket' of no passing. You simply can't do it.

Ding, ding, ding.

<---- Sometime flagger who gets worried when he see things like this. At least in the racecar I'm protected by nice safety equipment.

 

[gran racing]

What is the correct flag conditon for that station?

I honestly don't give a crap what is the right flag for that condition. As a driver, I'm safely slowing the heck down and ensuring the workers trying to help the car on fire are given ample room to work. If some other race car drive wants to pass me because there's no yellow, black, or red flag? Have the position, it's all yours.

Some of this is getting pretty stupid.

 

[mossaidis]

I can't believe we're actually having this conversation... I think many of you would agree. It's unbelievble... but yes, we HAVE club members that have joined our club and make up their own rules. Please please please 1) if you choose to not to follow the GCR especially where the safety and road manners are concerned, go somewhere else and race with another club or 2) better yet stay and suggest improvements - in the end of the day rules regarding safety and protecting LIVES of those at risk must be easy to understand and follow - they must be applied equally under the same situations (yellow = no passing) every time. Otherwise, see #1.

Is there some "unwritten" SOP when you total a car or ruin a LIFE that it's okay for someone to beat your brains in with a helment behind the dumpster? Think about it - GCR says no physical violence.

Rules are in place for a reason. Break them and you better have a dam good reason to.

 

[Knestis]

...You didn't answer the question. Do you always wait to pass until you reach the next flag station?

If not, how did you know that you are clear of the incident?

To be fair, the rules absolutely DO allow me to decide that I can make my pass after I clear "the incident" but I do so at my own peril - and potentially that of workers - if I don't know that things are REALLY OK.

I can speak from personal experience watching a driver execute a well-timed pass on a competitor after the site of an incident (arguably well-timed because the passee was more cautious in the yellow zone than the passer) ONLY to discover that the waving yellow he'd driven by was essentially covering a waving yellow at the NEXT corner for an entirely separate incident...

In this case, the way things were laid out, he absolutelly could have seen that next station if he'd been looking for/at it rather than at his nemesis.

K

EDIT - In the interest of full disclosure, I *do* use a radio and have Cameron call the green, and in the past when I didn't have a radio, I've used the "yellow flags dropping" and "field accelerating" as my cue to skiddoo. But worst case, in none of those cases have I been more than "around the last corner" from S/F. THANK GOODNESS I haven't ever had to deal with the split start shenanigans.

EDIT EDIT - You ain't seen anything until you've watched NASA do a split standing/rolling start. (Yes, that means what you think it means.) Or the deal where they checker one class in the middle of a longer race for other classes. I've seen both. Eeek.

 

[JoshS]

EDIT EDIT - You ain't seen anything until you've watched NASA do a split standing/rolling start. (Yes, that means what you think it means.) Or the deal where they checker one class in the middle of a longer race for other classes. I've seen both. Eeek.

Oh yeah, that's normal out here with NASA Norcal. I've been in a NASA race where there were *6* starting groups in the same race, the first one did a standing start, the other 5 groups did rolling starts. Each group had a pace car though, fortunately.

 

[lateapex911]

JJJJJJJanos, you sure like to ride the twisted logic train! "SOP"...thats hilarious! I won't begin to repeat what the others have said, but thanks to you everyone in the room is dumber than when they came in, LOL. Folks, just ignore the guy making things up as he goes along!

This DOES bring up a sore subject, I was passed under an exactly similar situation (as JJ's two yellow scenario) in my last race at Lime Rock. Standing yellpw at S/F, and standing yellow at entrance to turn one. I got passed between the two flags. Then Yanis, who was running 2nd ahead of me, got passed by the same guy, in the same spot under the same flag conditions. Somehow, he didn't get called in. I thought it was SO obvious. So obvious I didn't write paper. Dumb move. He got away with it, and there were workers tangentially to his pass on the outside of the track. BAD move.

We're all in this together, and we drivers need to communicate things with the Stewards, like the fact that the FCY flags were still up in T11 when the green was displayed. Which is odd, because I thought the T11 station could SEE the S/F flag...

 

[Ed Funk]

Kubaya, m' Lord, Kubaya.....

 

[StephenB]

Depends on where the pass was made.

Waypoint 1: Station A standing
Waypoint 2: Station B waving
Waypoint 3: Incident
Waypoint 4: Station C no flag

There is no incident between WP1 and WP2, therefore the yellow flag does not create a yellow course condition in that area.

If the pass happens anywhere but between waypoint 2 and waypoint 3, I would say the pass was legal. A pass being defined as the nose of the overtaking car, at any time, breaks the plane of the nose of the car being overtaken.

Waypoint 1 should not have had a flag displayed. Under unwritten SOP, the flag indicates an incident between waypoint 1 and waypoint 2. No incident visible means the driver has passed the incident and may pass legally.

That is entirely subject to what is in the supps.

It was incorrect to display a flag at the previous station. It serves no purpose other than to teach drivers that the flaggers cannot be trusted.

In 20+ yrs as a member (270387). I have never heard this interpretation....

 

[jjjanos]

Nope. I keep up a decent pace until I see the incident (and pass it) and can see the next flag station (and then determine what to do based on what they have - if anything - waving).
Remember, there can be more than one incident. The two flag stands holding yellows have created a 'pocket' of no passing. You simply can't do it.

I'm sorry... you said Nope. Nope what? No, you will not pass until you reach the next station after going past the only incident you see or no you will pass because you seem to be indicating that you do both.

Based on what you've written, I don't see how the flag condition at the next station should matter at all and yet you say that when you see it, you might pass.

I point you again to 6.1.1. The language is explicit. Your reference to an "unwritten SOP" is silly. Setting up a hypothetical event won't get you off the hook here.

Apparently it isn't explicit. The directive for the Note and Double yellow match. SLOW DOWN, No Passing. The wordage for the other yellow flag conditions require one to take care or great care. If the note was intended to apply to all yellow flags, the directive under the note would be the same.

As for SOP - you ever flagged? I have, lots. I know that SOP for flagging in nearly all of NEDIV and a good chunk of SEDIV is:

No flag = nothing between this station and the next.
Standing = something between this station and the next, but if you stay on the pavement, you will not hit it.
Waving = something on the pavement between this station and the next. Be prepared to stop.

Flags should convey one thing and one thing only - the condition of the course between here and there.

Backup flag? Nope. It conveys a lie to the driver because the "correct" flag condition for that station is no flag. More importantly, it increases danger because, if the station actually needs and should display a standing yellow, what flag are they going to display to let drivers know that, "Hey! This time we actually mean it. We've now got a car sitting here."

I trust these SCCA flaggers 100% to be displaying the flags this way because, until recently, I was one of them. I know how they flag. I know what flag is suppose to be displayed and I know what flag will be displayed. Probably wouldn't trust those who spend a large amount of time flagging with RSI, but that's a different issue.

As for incidents that I, as a driver, cannot see. I know that if I cannot see an incident between me and the next station, then there is no incident between me and the next station. Mind you, that presupposes that I am not in the middle of a scrum and can actually see the verges between pavement and barrier. I do not care how far a distance there is between me and the next station.

I know this because, by the flagging standard, if I cannot see the broken down or wrecked vehicle, I know that those staffing the stations will not be displaying a flag. (Hence the hypothetical... the correct flag condition is no flag.)

and I'll simply state that you're wrong. Have you ever raced at Watkins Glen ?

I've flagged it.

Por exemplo - The "Off-camber Left" - something nasty happens at the exit there...Station 15 goes waving, but if you're in heavy race traffic, there is a HIGH likelyhood that you won't see it as you turn into T9, so having a backup "standing" at Station 14 is very important.

The Glen throws stations around like a prostitute turns tricks and I cannot remember which station is numbered which. I've flagged the exit from the boot. Are you talking about the two stations on DR (the first at the entrance and the second at the exit) or the station at the entrance to the exit from the boot and the station down the hill?

In the prior, the two stations shouldn't exist. The only station that should exist is the one at the entrance to the corner. There is an unencumbered from the exit of that corner to the turn-in to the next.

In the latter, there's no freaking way the flag at turn in can be missed, so there is no need for a backup down the hill

Ummm...no. Same deal at Station 16-17, the subject of this debate - If you're in traffic (and the subjects of this debate were in traffic), you don't have a lot of time to catch sight of Station 17 before you turn into T11, and you have a pretty good chance of NOT seeing the Miata on the wall on the outside edge of the track as you do. Station 16 may go standing at the request of 17, since 16 is on the OTHER SIDE OF THE TRACK and will give the LARGE CROWD OF CARS a "heads-up".

Again a place that I have flagged (the left-hander or penultimate corner of a lap). There is a clear line of sight from mid-corner to turn-in of the ultimate corner of the lap. A driver exiting the penultimate turn will see everything there, if he spotted a flag at station located at the penultimate turn. The station near turn in of the penultimate corner is on DL. The station near turn in of the last station is DR.

Or is this another of those places that WGI has multiple stations covering what should be covered by a single station and there is both a station at the entrance and exit of the corner? I didn't flag the last turn of WGI, so I don't know if they've over stationed that corner too.

I've flagged places that had "mirror" stations. Station 7 automatically displays whatever flag station 8 displays and also displays a flag for anything between it and 8. That makes 8 a meaningless station and it should cease to exist.

A standing yellow to "cover" an incident in the next station's flag area is dangerous, does not protect anyone and only leads to real flags being over-driven. When I flagged regularly - around 20 weekends per year - the desire and actions of flaggers were to convey accurate, correct and useful information to the drivers.

 

[Butch Kummer]

Backup flag? Nope. It conveys a lie to the driver because the "correct" flag condition for that station is no flag. More importantly, it increases danger because, if the station actually needs and should display a standing yellow, what flag are they going to display to let drivers know that, "Hey! This time we actually mean it. We've now got a car sitting here."

I've never driven nor flagged WGI, but I have done both at Road Atlanta. It is possible to carry more speed through Turn 6 there than you can get stopped for at Turn 7, and there are many times that cars will go through 6 side-by-side trying to "out brave" each other into 7.

When there is an incident at or just past the apex that necessitates a waving yellow at Turn 7, we will OFTEN call for a back-up standing yellow at Turn 6. This is expressly done to alert guys to get their cars fully under control before the apex to 6 and reduce the chances of a side-by-side threshold braking incident into the side of the car that has spun and is sitting broadside at the apex (or exit) of 7.

We have also called for a back-up standing yellow at Turn 9 when there's an ugly incident that necessitates a waving yellow at 10-A. Again it's to get guys lined up and out of a side-by-side threshold braking situation into a car at the apex of 10-A.

Maybe this creates more danger to some of (or at least ONE of) you Yankees, but if you come to Road Atlanta and pass someone between a standing yellow at Six and a waving yellow at Seven (or a standing yellow at T-9 and the waving yellow at T-10) you'd be advised to have a better justification than "the unwritten SOP allows me to pass there" to take to the Chief Steward.

A standing yellow means no passing until you're past the incident or reach the next station where no flag is displayed - that's pretty damn simple to understand.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

[jjjanos]

A standing yellow means no passing until you're past the incident or reach the next station where no flag is displayed - that's pretty damn simple to understand.

Well, that's not in the GCR you know.

Useless trivia: Road Atlanta is the reason for this stupid and useless rule ; "advised to have a better justification than "In addition, a standing white flag will be displayed during the first lap of each race group’s first session of the day to indicate the location of the flagging stations."

As it was related to me, a driver made a pass under a yellow at station X. Station Y was not staffed. Station Z was. Driver successfully argued (either at the SOMs or the Court of Appeals) that his pass was legal since there was no flag at Y and there was no incident between X and Y.

"Someone" decided the solution was to show a white flag for lap 1 of the first session so every driver would no where the flag stations were located and staffed. This, of course, does nothing for drivers who miss the first lap or first session. It also means that, if additional flaggers arrive, you cannot staff the unstaffed stations in the afternoon since the drivers have not been displayed a white flag.

It also means that the flag stations cannot show a white flag on the first lap for a slow moving car or an EV because the white flag now has 2 meanings, depending on what lap it is displayed.

 

[Peter Olivola]

6.1.1. Meaning of Each Flag
B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING
FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO
PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the
entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will display
double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO
PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and
other cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).
NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency
area. The requirements are still the same: SLOW DOWN, NO
PASSING.

1.2.3. Interpreting and Applying the GCR
A. Interpreting the GCR shall not be strained or tortured and applying
the GCR shall be logical, remembering that the GCR cannot specifically
cover all possible situations. Words such as “shall” or “shall
not”, “will” or “will not”, “can not”, “may not”, “are” or “must” are
mandatory; and words such as “may” and “should” are permissive.

Apparently it isn't explicit. The directive for the Note and Double yellow match. SLOW DOWN, No Passing. The wordage for the other yellow flag conditions require one to take care or great care. If the note was intended to apply to all yellow flags, the directive under the note would be the same.

 

[JohnRW]

Apparently it isn't explicit. The directive for the Note and Double yellow match. SLOW DOWN, No Passing. The wordage for the other yellow flag conditions require one to take care or great care. If the note was intended to apply to all yellow flags, the directive under the note would be the same.

Let's look at what the GCR 6.1.1 actually says, since you're determined to misquote and misconstrue it...

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
[FONT=Univers,Univers][FONT=Univers,Univers]STANDING YELLOW [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers,Univers][FONT=Univers,Univers]– Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area. [/FONT]
[FONT=Univers,Univers]WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area. [/FONT]
[FONT=Univers,Univers]DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.). [/FONT]
[FONT=Univers,Univers]NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are still the same: SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. [/FONT]

[/FONT]
You've will note that EACH of these flag descriptions says "NO PASSING". The capitalization is the GCR's...not mine. Your quote, emboldened above, is inaccurate...misleading...duplicitous.

The note is very clear. Once you see a yellow flag, regardless of what other flags you might see...more yellows...yellows with debris...yellows with white flag...yellows with black...yellows with red...that the message is the same -"SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING". This is painfully obvious, unless you want to be deliberately/defensively obtuse.

What is also interesting is that, if "cut" from the .pdf of the GCR and pasted into a new Word document, the "Note" section is not indented like each of the flag description, which to a normal, conscious and breathing person, indicates that the note applies to all the elements in that section. Cut and paste it yourself and see.

Your arguments are failing.

As for SOP - you ever flagged? I have, lots. I know that SOP for flagging in nearly all of NEDIV and a good chunk of SEDIV is

Once again, you venture into the land of logical fallacies. Whether I've flagged or not is irrelevant. We're discussing driving, and driver's appropriate reactions to flags. I don't note a requirement to be a qualified flagger prior to obtaining a competition license, or a requirement to have extensive knowledge of an unwritten flagging "SOP". Is there one ? If not, your deflection is...a deflection.

Backup flag? Nope. It conveys a lie to the driver because the "correct" flag condition for that station is no flag. More importantly, it increases danger because, if the station actually needs and should display a standing yellow, what flag are they going to display to let drivers know that, "Hey! This time we actually mean it. We've now got a car sitting here."

Then maybe, since you have a unique view of how to flag blind corners, maybe you can explain why Summit Point has yellow lights on the bridge, operated by the flag station at T10, to give drivers a "heads-up" for conditions beyond their line of sight. Am I free to pass between those yellow lights and the station at T10, if I can't see an incident ? SP supps say I can't...and those are exactly the same "backup" flag conditions that you're condemning at WGI. Lol. A flag station doesn't need an explanation in the supps, since the meaning of the flags is clearly stated in the GCR (above).

As to my question as to whether you're ever raced at WGI, you've responded -

I've flagged it.

...so that would be a "NO". Lol. You have no idea of the sight lines from corner to corner at the Glen, do you ? (rhetorical question...it's obvious that you don't)

The Glen throws stations around like a prostitute turns tricks and I cannot remember which station is numbered which. I've flagged the exit from the boot. Are you talking about the two stations on DR (the first at the entrance and the second at the exit) or the station at the entrance to the exit from the boot and the station down the hill?

In the prior, the two stations shouldn't exist. The only station that should exist is the one at the entrance to the corner. There is an unencumbered from the exit of that corner to the turn-in to the next.

The entrance to the corner can't see the exit of the corner. Too great an arc, and too much elevation change. So...if they put yellow lights at the entrance (like Summit Point), instead of a flaggers and a flag station, would that satisfy you ? LOL. You're sinking deeper.

Again a place that I have flagged (the left-hander or penultimate corner of a lap). There is a clear line of sight from mid-corner to turn-in of the ultimate corner of the lap. A driver exiting the penultimate turn will see everything there, if he spotted a flag at station located at the penultimate turn.

Lol...no he won't. Between the posters in this thread who actually have race experience at WGI, there are probably 10,000-20,000 laps of experience (I probably have 5000, between racing - 6 different classes - and instructing DE). Ask them if they can see the exit, under the pedestrian bridge, as they approach turn-in for T11. Ask them about their experience in the SM "Big One" several years ago there, or maybe ask the World Challenge folks about their similar experience. Due to elevation change, camber and inner guardrail, the flaggers at the station covering that turn can't even see a slow-slung car at the inside of the exit on the front straight.

A standing yellow to "cover" an incident in the next station's flag area is dangerous, does not protect anyone and only leads to real flags being over-driven. When I flagged regularly - around 20 weekends per year - the desire and actions of flaggers were to convey accurate, correct and useful information to the drivers.

So says you, with no backup to prove it. Uber-experienced racers with decades of club racing experience at this track and others have publically disagreed with you. I guess they're clueless.

 

[lawtonglenn]

.

 

[jjjanos]

Once again, you venture into the land of logical fallacies. Whether I've flagged or not is irrelevant. We're discussing driving, and driver's appropriate reactions to flags. I don't note a requirement to be a qualified flagger prior to obtaining a competition license, or a requirement to have extensive knowledge of an unwritten flagging "SOP". Is there one ? If not, your deflection is...a deflection.

It's not a deflection. I'm telling you how a good chunk of the tracks in the middle atlantic are flagged. It doesn't matter what the GCR says when you are in the car coming to an incident. It matters what the flaggers are telling you.

There's nothing in the GCR about flaggers holding a fire bottle and pointing at you as you go past. Are you going to ignore that information because it isn't in the GCR?

AFAIK, there's nothing in the GCR about flaggers using hand signals to direct cars to DR or DL when there is a waving yellow. You going to go DL or DR when the flaggers are using hand signals indicating that you should go through the blind corner on DR?

Then maybe, since you have a unique view of how to flag blind corners, maybe you can explain why Summit Point has yellow lights on the bridge, operated by the flag station at T10, to give drivers a "heads-up" for conditions beyond their line of sight.

LOL. You don't understand why stations are placed where they are. EVERY station is placed to give a driver information where there is a blind spot or to allow a station to station view. (Which, thinking about it now, explains the station at the entrance and exit to the exit from the boot. That station does not have a clear line of sight to the next left. If they could put a station on DL there, which they cannot because of terrain, they wouldn't need 2 stations.).

The lights on the bridge aren't there to give drivers an early heads-up about what's around the corner. They weren't put there to shutdown the very limited passing opportunities at 10. The lights on the bridge are there because the FMs and many drivers felt that the station 10 is difficult to see and the inability to put a station in more direct line of sight.

At Summit, Station 2 exists only because station 1 cannot see station 3. Station 6 exists (though rarely staffed) because, if we can, we don't want to shut down the passing zone in 5 for an incident in the carousel. Station 9 exists because station 8 cannot see over the hill to station 10.

Station 5, however, mirrors nothing when 6 is staffed. 6 can be waving a yellow hard enough to churn butter and 5 is still covering only its area.

Am I free to pass between those yellow lights and the station at T10, if I can't see an incident ? SP supps say I can't...and those are exactly the same "backup" flag conditions that you're condemning at WGI. Lol. A flag station doesn't need an explanation in the supps, since the meaning of the flags is clearly stated in the GCR (above).

You cannot pass because the supps tell you that the flagging zone for station 10 BEGINS at the lights. If all you can see is to the apex, you cannot see the entire zone covered by station 10's "flags" and so you would be taking a chance if you passed. If, however, you can see down to start and there is no incident, you are past the emergency situation.

As to my question as to whether you're ever raced at WGI, you've responded -
The entrance to the corner can't see the exit of the corner. Too great an arc, and too much elevation change. So...if they put yellow lights at the entrance (like Summit Point), instead of a flaggers and a flag station, would that satisfy you ? LOL. You're sinking deeper.

You are saying that the flaggers at the entrance cannot see the exit? BS. I've spent a weekend at that very station. I KNOW the flaggers can see the exit. Whether the drivers can see the exit is irrelevant as to the placement of a station. The placement of the stations is dependent on whether stations can see the track to the next station (i.e. their entire zone), the drivers can see the station and whether the sanctioning body wants to shut down a long stretch of track from passing.

What the flaggers cannot see is down the frigging chute there.

Lol...no he won't. Between the posters in this thread who actually have race experience at WGI, there are probably 10,000-20,000 laps of experience (I probably have 5000, between racing - 6 different classes - and instructing DE). Ask them if they can see the exit, under the pedestrian bridge, as they approach turn-in for T11. Ask them about their experience in the SM "Big One" several years ago there, or maybe ask the World Challenge folks about their similar experience. Due to elevation change, camber and inner guardrail, the flaggers at the station covering that turn can't even see a slow-slung car at the inside of the exit on the front straight.

Turn 11 is the last corner. See

Like I said, I cannot recall WGI's numbering scheme. Based on this map...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/2a/20080606052257!Watkins_Glen_International_Circuit_Map.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Watkins_Glen_International_Circuit_Map.png&usg=__uHofuH2ZTBj7j5DRQ0yehCOWOx8=&h=490&w=470&sz=21&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Xd4NQD1rFJ94aM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwatkins%2Bglen%2Binternational%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26tbs%3Disch:1

Turn 10 is the penultimate. I've flagged there. You can see the station on DL at the entrance to 11.

It doesn't matter whether the drivers can see the exit of T11 at the station as long as the station at T11 can see it and down to the next flagging station. The flag at the entrance to T11 provides information from that point to the next station, regardless of whether drivers can see the next station or not.