Confusing Split Start – Hopefully a Learning Opportunity

[dickita15]

Split starts can be a good tool that regions should have in their toolbox. They can certainly solve some problems with certain race groups but they are not something you can do on the fly at the last minute. Everyone involved, the pace car drivers, the corners stations, the starters and the stewards have to be on the same page and understand the concept. A region has to practice them to do them well.

 

[gran racing]

Did anyone approach either the CS or the Operating Steward afterward to let them know what happened?

A few drivers talked about in impound but we were all quite confused. At that point I was more than happy to have a working car again, and just wanted to enjoy the rest of the day and figure it out later.

If the field is not, then once the green waves, the course is green and the double-yellow is meaningless. Advantage to having a radio.

Since this was a triple split start (or whatever one may call it), the moment the first group was given the green the 2nd and 3rd groups were technically green? I don't agree with that. Talk about a safety concern.

I believe the way this should have gone down is the first group was to follow the pace car as a normal start would. Green would have been given for that group, and that group only. Next group needed to wait until they were given the green at the starters stand before racing. Same with us - green should not have been waived until the starter could see the field.

Anyone know how the 2nd split start (SM) group was handled? Did they receive the green somewhere else on the track?

 

[dickita15]

Split starts are spelled out in the GCR.

6.5.2 Split Starts
A. Split starts are recommended when there is a large differential in
speed or cornering ability between the classes or categories in a
single race group. The procedures for a split start must be explained
in the Supplemental Regulations or at a Drivers’ Meeting.
B. The Chief Steward will determine the class(es) in each segment.
Segments will contain entire classes of cars, including those
cars with no qualifying time. The class containing the car with
the fastest qualifying time will be a part of the first segment. The
cars assigned to each segment will be gridded by qualifying time,
regardless of class.
C. Each segment should be led by a pace car, if possible. A following
segment should have the previous segment in sight on the longest
straight.
D. Each segment will receive a separate green flag. If the first segment
gets a green flag, then the remaining segment(s)’ race(s) will have
started no matter what flag the starter displays. This allows the
Starter to display appropriate flags if warranted by an incident.
Anyone jumping the start in the remaining segments may be penalized.
E. A starting judge should be appointed for a split start.


It does not sound like a real slit start is what happened or even what was intended. There is a procedure called a split grid but it is not specifically called out in the GCR that I can see. Normally this means resequencing the grid by class. However:

6.4.2 Establishing the Race Grid
A. A starting position is qualified by a driver/car combination.
B. The Chief Timer certifies official qualifying times to determine race
grid positions. Cars are positioned on the race grid in order of their
official qualifying times without regard to engine displacement or
class, with the fastest cars at the head of the grid. Any other
method of determining starting positions must be described in the
Supplemental Regulations and approved by SCCA.

It sound like a split grid was done, hopefully with the approval of the SOM as I doubt this was in the supps but rather than do a split start the different groups were just told to leave a space.

The wording in the GCR is a reasonable, fairly well thought out way to do split starts. Hybrid methods worry me.

 

[Knestis]

...That's what it might have meant back during the Younger Dryas, but now it just means the entire course is under a yellow condition and if start is waving a green, that cannot be true.

Anyone going to pit because they see a single station displaying a black flag?

But what you're asking for isn't workable from the driver's point of view. We have to be conditioned for an operant response - see yellow, follow yellow rules. ANY time we ask drivers to go through the mental gymnastics of working out permutations of what might be going on at S/F for example, we create an unpredictable, potentially dangerous situation.

If I see a double yellow and it's my first indication that something is wrong (i.e., I haven't seen a waving local yellow), I click into "FCY" mode: Assume that the mess might be anywhere - around the next corner? - be very circumspect about what I'm doing, and once the problem has been located, get caught up to the pack behind the pace car.

If I get to the second station showing double yellows, it reinforces what I knew from the first. If I get to the second station and there are NO yellow flags, then it's safe to assume the course is clear. The fact that in this instance, they were EXPECTING the green when they saw the double yellow, the correct course of action for someone in a group of cars purposefully held back from the rest of the grid *seems* to be to treat the track as FCY.

But then, that's why this was just wrong from the outset, sounds like.

K

 

[jjjanos]

Since this was a triple split start (or whatever one may call it), the moment the first group was given the green the 2nd and 3rd groups were technically green? I don't agree with that. Talk about a safety concern.

It sounds as if they were trying to do a split grid on the fly.
Neither a split start or a split grid works unless everyone knows that it is being used.

A GCR-compliant Split Start is essentially 2 starts in the first group. The course between start and the second start remains FCY until the second (or third) group sees the flag.

A split grid, something not mentioned in the GCR, simply has the second (or third) group leave a gap between the forward groups. As soon as start waves the green, the entire course is green. Everyone races. Some will be smart enough to look at the stations for the dropped flags, some will have radios, some will realize it when they get passed.

I believe the way this should have gone down is the first group was to follow the pace car as a normal start would. Green would have been given for that group, and that group only. Next group needed to wait until they were given the green at the starters stand before racing. Same with us - green should not have been waived until the starter could see the field.

Like I said, depends on whether it was a split start or split grid and everyone needs to know WTF is going to happen. Sounds like the someone sitting in the chair got a little too intimate with a canine because not all of the drivers were informed and perhaps not all of the flag stations/start.

 

[jjjanos]

But what you're asking for isn't workable from the driver's point of view. We have to be conditioned for an operant response - see yellow, follow yellow rules. ANY time we ask drivers to go through the mental gymnastics of working out permutations of what might be going on at S/F for example, we create an unpredictable, potentially dangerous situation.

On the start, do you wait until you see the green or do you rely on a radio or the rest of the field taking off?

If I have a radio, I have not been told there is a split start happening and I hear over the radio that the field is green/green/green, I am going to go as will 95% of the field with radios.

If I get to the second station showing double yellows, it reinforces what I knew from the first. If I get to the second station and there are NO yellow flags, then it's safe to assume the course is clear. The fact that in this instance, they were EXPECTING the green when they saw the double yellow, the correct course of action for someone in a group of cars purposefully held back from the rest of the grid *seems* to be to treat the track as FCY.

Except, the guys who went knew the course was green.

But then, that's why this was just wrong from the outset, sounds like.

Yep. If the grid isn't the normal procedure, everyone has to be told that something new is being done, otherwise, things like this happen.

 

[John Nesbitt]

Split Starts -vs- Split Grids

As of June 1, the language in GCR 6.5.2.D is replaced (see June Fastrack, p.6):

6.5.2.D Split Starts

1. Provided each segment is properly formed, each will receive a separate green flag.
2. If the first segment receives a green flag, the race is considered to have begun for the subsequent segments when
they cross the control line, regardless of the flags displayed by the starter.
3. The flags displayed by the starter have their normal meanings.
4. If the first segment receives a green flag, but on track safety conditions require an immediate full course yellow, cars
in subsequent segments should fall into single file grid order and make every effort to safely catch the back of the first
segment.
5. Drivers in each segment shall not improve their position until their respective green flag is displayed. Jump starts may
be penalized.


It's important here to distinguish between split starts and split grids.

A Split Start is defined in the GCR: separate segments, each usually with its own pace car, and each taking its own green flag. If the first segment gets a green, the second segment will also get a green, but not until it reaches the Starter. If segment 1 messed up, Start may also display other flags (Yellow, FCY, etc.) When each segment takes its green, racing commences throughout the segment.

A Split Grid is not defined in the GCR, and is therefore an informal local arrangement. Typically, classes within a segment will group themselves separately from (but close to) the rest of the segment. When the segment is shown the green, racing commences throughout the segment (as above).

For the race under discussion, there was both a split start (segments 1 and 2) and a split grid (segment 2 split into two). When segment 1 took the green, it commenced racing, but segment 2 did not. When the first car in segment 2 took the green, racing commenced throughout segment 2, including both split groups.

As another poster mentioned, these are complicated processes, with many moving parts. Combining a split start and a split grid adds to the complexity. It is critical that all players be on the same page.

 

[spawpoet]

On the start, do you wait until you see the green or do you rely on a radio or the rest of the field taking off?

If I have a radio, I have not been told there is a split start happening and I hear over the radio that the field is green/green/green, I am going to go as will 95% of the field with radios.

You can't assume the radios though, which is why everybody has to obey the yellow flag whether it's supposed to be there or not. Any deviance from following what the local station is displaying creates a dangerous situation. Even if the green is waving, if the local station is (erroneously) displaying a double yellow any passing should be considered a violation. It sounds to me like this should be clarified in the GCR.

 

[disquek]

I will give one "prop" for the handling of the end of Group 3 on Sunday: an EP Miata pounded the outside wall in the last turn two laps from the end ...

Hi Greg,

I beg to differ on this one.

Race control "got away" with a bad decision.

It was Chris Howard's FP miata that nosed into the T11 safer barrier HARD. As you know, T11 is a 85+mph corner and the barrier is inches from on-line. Chris was directly on the racing line.

Eyewitness accounts (no paint drying here), have him being buzzed so close and fast that it MOVED his car while he was planted into the barrier. Remember, this is a 2,000lb open miata on track with 3,500lb BMW WC cars. In addition at least one of our always well behaved SM in STU colleagues passed under the yellow going into T11.

IMHO, this was not so much a good decision, but a fortunate outcome. Did those two laps result in a different race result or were they worth the risk? I don't think they were. I think that they should have thrown the checker when Chris hit the wall.

-Kyle

 

[ner88]

Kyle
You've made your point on how many forums??
the pass was questionable, leave it alone.

Oh, by the way, there are no Miatas in FV, give it some thought!

 

[disquek]

Hey Jerry,

Questionable? Since when is a pass under yellow caught on video showing not one but two flag stations with yellow out "questionable"?

Why don't you recall for us how you defended your paying customer's conscious decision to take another lap after he saw the black flag all on Friday? What was it you said? "The F&C workers were not waiving the flags vigorously enough"? Don't even think of changing the tune now. He was VERY clear that he saw it and made the decision to continue at race pace.

I have no issues with Miatas. I drove to work in one today. I have an issue with idiots.

My post was not about the pass under yellow, it was about the decision to leave Chris on the racing line for the benefit of two compromised race laps when, prior to that EVERY session had at least one caution. Was Chris' safety some how less important? Maybe it was because he was in a miata?

BTW: I brought up this seriously stupid move on one other forum. I brought it up there because the perp decided that rather than apologize, he would attack the person he passed under yellow by telling them that they were slow. Frankly I cannot think of a way to show worse judgement or less respect. Oh wait .... maybe skipping a black flag all for another joy ride lap.

-Kyle

 

[ner88]

Kyle
Ok so the post wasn't about passing under yellow but you brought it up and thru in STU and SM.
You're entitled to your opinion.
No name calling here.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

So the real learning oportunity here for me is simple:

1. We know EITHER race control or the corner workers (or both) messed up and didn't have the same 'signs' up at the time of 'start'.

2. We know that, AT THAT MOEMENT - AT THAT CORNER, the course was FCY. No passing allowed. Just because the green was out doesn't preclude SOMETHING else from being wrong - or a mistake being made.

So what is the takeaway? It's video. Got to have it. Also, who do you protest, for what and what would your expected outcome to be?

The people who passed while under FCY should have been written up and penalized some positions. No? Should this have been proactive by the Stewards or should it have been done on protest?

 

[John Nesbitt]

Split Starts - A Little More

Here is a short follow up to my earlier post.

As others have mentioned, a split start is a complicated process which requires careful coordination and should not be done on the fly.

The operational objective is to gap the two segments such that the first segment has cleared the first turn(s) before segment 2 gets to the start. The rationale is obvious: if segment 1 makes a mess in T1, the Starter can display the appropriate flag(s) to the second segment.

When the first segment starts its pace lap, all stations should be double yellow. When the first segment gets the green, all stations from station 1 to the back of segment 2 should drop their double yellows.

Segment 2 should continue to see double yellow until it gets the green. When the second segment takes the green, the remaining stations drop their double yellows.

In the present case, where segment 2 did a split grid as well, the flag conditions should be exactly as described since the split grid is still one segment for starting purposes. (This is also why a split grid normally has a much smaller gap - so that all have a chance to see the green.)

 

[jjjanos]

So the real learning oportunity here for me is simple:

2. We know that, AT THAT MOEMENT - AT THAT CORNER, the course was FCY. No passing allowed. Just because the green was out doesn't preclude SOMETHING else from being wrong - or a mistake being made.

You've created a situation that cannot exist unless one is in the process of having a split start, which, apparently, the third group of cars was not under. Except for a split start, under no set of circumstances can that corner cannot be FCY. In fact, no part of the track was under a FCY the moment start displayed the green flag for the 2nd group of cars.

Turning to the Miata incident...

Since when is a pass under yellow caught on video showing not one but two flag stations with yellow out "questionable"?

The incident looks like race direction:
Station with Incident -1: Standing Yellow
Station with Incident: Waving Yellow
Incident
???

There is no incident within the area covered by (station with incident -1). Thus the flag is meaningless as soon as the drivers can see to the next station. No "emergency area" under that flags coverage area equals one may pass.

The error was in displaying a "backup" flag at the previous station unless it is SOP and listed in the supps. That flag serves no purpose and conveys incorrect information to the drivers. A yellow flag says that between me and the next station, there is an incident. If the driver can see the next station and there is no incident, the emergency situation no longer exists.

Virtually every other serious sanctioning body equips flag stations with green flags that denote the point where the yellow course condition ends. Maybe it is time that SCCA joins the rest of the world....

 

[disquek]

So the pass under yellow was okay because the previous flag station also had out a yellow flag?

It is not up to you to second guess race control by deciding that just because you don't happen to see an incident, you are not affected by the yellow flag.

I suggest that you re-read GCR 6.1.1b and update your post. You are wrong. There is no passing between the first flag and the incident. If there is no incident there is no passing between the first flag and the next flag station with no yellow flag displayed.

-Kyle

 

[Greg Amy]

Yellow flag? No passing. No exceptions, no matter how smart or clever you think you are.

Virtually every other serious sanctioning body equips flag stations with green flags that denote the point where the yellow course condition ends. Maybe it is time that SCCA joins the rest of the world...

FIA rules. This we can agree upon. I do think it's time we adopt those, to eliminate the vagaries of such silly conversations as above. Yellow flag means no passing until you see a subsequent green, period. - GA

 

[JohnRW]

There is no incident within the area covered by (station with incident -1). Thus the flag is meaningless as soon as the drivers can see to the next station. No "emergency area" under that flags coverage area equals one may pass.

The error was in displaying a "backup" flag at the previous station unless it is SOP and listed in the supps. That flag serves no purpose and conveys incorrect information to the drivers. A yellow flag says that between me and the next station, there is an incident. If the driver can see the next station and there is no incident, the emergency situation no longer exists.

Wow.

I suggest you review GCR Section 6 - specifically 6.1.1 "Meaning of Each Flag", with special attention paid to the "Note" below 6.1.1.B.

Then come back here and try to defend your statements above. I doubt you can...but it will be fun watching you try...and will provide us with a "target-rich environment" for taunting and ridicule.

This will be fun.

 

[jjjanos]

So the pass under yellow was okay because the previous flag station also had out a yellow flag?

Are you kidding?

-Kyle

Depends on where the pass was made.

Waypoint 1: Station A standing
Waypoint 2: Station B waving
Waypoint 3: Incident
Waypoint 4: Station C no flag

There is no incident between WP1 and WP2, therefore the yellow flag does not create a yellow course condition in that area.

If the pass happens anywhere but between waypoint 2 and waypoint 3, I would say the pass was legal. A pass being defined as the nose of the overtaking car, at any time, breaks the plane of the nose of the car being overtaken.

Waypoint 1 should not have had a flag displayed. Under unwritten SOP, the flag indicates an incident between waypoint 1 and waypoint 2. No incident visible means the driver has passed the incident and may pass legally.

That is entirely subject to what is in the supps.

It was incorrect to display a flag at the previous station. It serves no purpose other than to teach drivers that the flaggers cannot be trusted.

 

[spawpoet]

That flag serves no purpose and conveys incorrect information to the drivers.

That the drivers are still obliged to follow.

Virtually every other serious sanctioning body equips flag stations with green flags that denote the point where the yellow course condition ends. Maybe it is time that SCCA joins the rest of the world....

Agree wholeheartedly. This would clear up the ambiguity in this situation.