Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/mini/coop...4116/specs.html
It's the Mini, and it's in ITB already.
December Fastrack
- Thread starter Greg Amy
- Start date
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/mini/coop...4116/specs.html
It's the Mini, and it's in ITB already.
***And now I'm back from doing the Turkey Trot 5K in Elmhurst (Chicago 'burb) in "30*F, feels like 19*F" with 5000+ other idiots, many of whom were either already drunk, dressed in some goofy costume, or 7 years old with no sense of direction. Neighbors actually had Bloody Mary stations set up in their front yards.***
K, if your not busy on New Years day your a welcomed guest at my home so that you might try something for the first time in your life. It's said to be very refreshing. I don't remember the number (it's in the hundreds today where 40 years ago it was 5 to 10) of people who do this. I have over the years gone to the lake Michigan lake front to watch this dressed in my best down hill gear & felt cold. Been there when the water had ice floating, ice on shore, ice farther out, 5* F, you name it
.
"Milwaukee writer Bob Purvis, right, meets up with Milwaukee Polar Bear Club President Garth Gaskey at Bradford Beach. Gaskey made his 53rd consecutive plunge Jan. 1, 2005."
Have Fun
David
K, if your not busy on New Years day your a welcomed guest at my home so that you might try something for the first time in your life. It's said to be very refreshing. I don't remember the number (it's in the hundreds today where 40 years ago it was 5 to 10) of people who do this. I have over the years gone to the lake Michigan lake front to watch this dressed in my best down hill gear & felt cold. Been there when the water had ice floating, ice on shore, ice farther out, 5* F, you name it
. "Milwaukee writer Bob Purvis, right, meets up with Milwaukee Polar Bear Club President Garth Gaskey at Bradford Beach. Gaskey made his 53rd consecutive plunge Jan. 1, 2005."
Have Fun
David
Bill Miller
New member
Geez, those things have been out for 5 years already?? Where does the time go? BTW, I see why it's in ITB @ 2500 if the curb weight is 3300. And even that's probably a stretch to get to.
/edit/ I thought something didn't make sense w/ that car @ 3300#. That's the GVW, not the curb weight. Curb weight is 2315#.
BTW Andy, those specs say 1.6L and 115hp, not 1.8L and 118hp.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Trying to do it off the top of my head. My bad. You are right on the weights being well under 3000lbs.
ScotMac
New member
Sorry, my bad. I was quoting CarAndDriver, which definitely lists the curb weight at 3300lbs:
http://www.caranddriver.com/cars/3965/mini-cooper.html
Looks like the consensus is 1050kg, or 2315lbs:
http://www.internetautoguide.com/car-speci...oper/index.html (1050kg)
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...ni-cooper-4.htm
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drive...articleId=53755
Bill Miller
New member
'stock air metering device', isn't that the throttle body? I know the way the statement is written, it makes it out as if the stock air metering device were a sensor, but I'm not sure how that works. I know on a CIS VW, the only thing that meters the air going into the motor is the throttle body. But it's certainly not a sensor.
Eagle7
New member
Bill, many electronic engine control units measure the air volume entering the engine with a dedicated sensor - Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor, Air Flow Meter (AFM), etc. Mine is a spring-loaded flapper door attached to the air filter - two feet from the throttle body. These sensors have a well-defined maximum area that causes restriction in the intake. A common upgrade for the street tuner is to replace the sensor with a physically larger unit to reduce the restriction. The rule says if you've got one, it must not be removed or modified, and all combustion air must flow through it. IMO this is the most important part of the new rule to minimize unintended consequences.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
The 'air metering device' is the AFM, MAF, etc. If we think it needs clarification, we can do it.
Shall we continue to play this game...?
...the air metering/measuring device (i.e. air flow meter, air mass meter, MAF) must be operational and shall not be modified.
- Define "operational." Does that mean it must also provide electrical signals to be used by the ECU? If not, why not; would that therefore make it "inoperable"? If so, doesn't the ECU rule now over-ride this, given that it can now be electrically "non-operational"?
- Is the slash between "metering" and "measuring" an "and" or an "or" (or both? Hmmm, how can something be both and and or?) Does 'metering' therefore refer to metering as in "measuring" (metering a flow of water - or air) or metering as in "regulating" (metering the allotted gasoline - or air - into the engine, e.g. a throttle body)? Or both (do we have anything that both regulates and measures? Oh, yes: a carburetor!)
- The term "i.e." is abbreviation for the Latin words "id est" or more colloquially "in other words", meaning an alternate definition. This decisively does not mean "e.g.", abbreviation for "exempli gratia" or 'for example'. When one uses "i.e." they are offering an alternate definition or complete set of examples; when one uses "e.g." they mean "for example, but not limited to". Ergo, if your "metering device" does not appear in the list above, is it now free?
Then we get to:
"Air intake hoses, tubes, pipes, resonators, intake mufflers, housings, etc., located ahead of the carburetor/throttle body may be removed or substituted."
So, if the tube ahead of the throttle body may be removed and/or substituted, and the "operational" status of the "the air metering/measuring device" is in question, and I leave it in the car unmodified...well, you can figure out the rest.
I know this is frustrating for you, but welcome to The New SCCA where words mean things...but most of the time not what you think.
As Kirk says: "whee". - GA
...the air metering/measuring device (i.e. air flow meter, air mass meter, MAF) must be operational and shall not be modified.
- Define "operational." Does that mean it must also provide electrical signals to be used by the ECU? If not, why not; would that therefore make it "inoperable"? If so, doesn't the ECU rule now over-ride this, given that it can now be electrically "non-operational"?
- Is the slash between "metering" and "measuring" an "and" or an "or" (or both? Hmmm, how can something be both and and or?) Does 'metering' therefore refer to metering as in "measuring" (metering a flow of water - or air) or metering as in "regulating" (metering the allotted gasoline - or air - into the engine, e.g. a throttle body)? Or both (do we have anything that both regulates and measures? Oh, yes: a carburetor!)
- The term "i.e." is abbreviation for the Latin words "id est" or more colloquially "in other words", meaning an alternate definition. This decisively does not mean "e.g.", abbreviation for "exempli gratia" or 'for example'. When one uses "i.e." they are offering an alternate definition or complete set of examples; when one uses "e.g." they mean "for example, but not limited to". Ergo, if your "metering device" does not appear in the list above, is it now free?
Then we get to:
"Air intake hoses, tubes, pipes, resonators, intake mufflers, housings, etc., located ahead of the carburetor/throttle body may be removed or substituted."
So, if the tube ahead of the throttle body may be removed and/or substituted, and the "operational" status of the "the air metering/measuring device" is in question, and I leave it in the car unmodified...well, you can figure out the rest.
I know this is frustrating for you, but welcome to The New SCCA where words mean things...but most of the time not what you think.
As Kirk says: "whee". - GA
Charlie Broring
New member
Slowly, but surely, we are turning into Production Car racers.
CaptainWho
New member
Only if, personally, winning is more important than racing. For me it's not, for others it is. The point being, I'm not likely to be running at the front, no matter what. I don't get enough seat time. But I can still have a blast dicing with another back marker while watching out for the fast guys in my mirrors.
Bill Miller
New member
Yes Andy, it does need clarification. Greg's pretty much on it (no surprise there). An AFM or MAF measures the amount of air let into the engine by the air metering device, and generates an electrical signal that's used by the engine mgmt system.
A metering device is for lack of a better term, a valve. An AFM is a meter. It measures air flow, it doesn't control it.
So, what do you consider the 'air metering device' on a CIS car?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Bill,
Am I reading your post wrong or did you just say an AFM is an air metering device?
Again, the rules do say already: ...the air metering/measuring device (i.e. air flow meter, air mass meter, MAF)
RSTPerformance
New member
They used to
Anyone know exactly what can be done with a CIS Audi/VW with these new rules??? I know that our computers could not be chiped, but with the new rule can we replace the computers with a known product?
Raymond "I hate the rule, but we can't stop it, now need to get something from it?" Blethen
Bill Miller
New member
Yes, there is a flapper valve. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that valve control fuel flow? It moves in response to the air flowing into the engine through the air metering device.
No Andy, I said that an AFM is a meter. That would be a measuring device, not a metering device. The excerpt from FasTrack only mentions [
Dave Zaslow
New member
Here are the pertinent mentions of 'air' defined in the GCR technical glossary:
Air Throttle - The valve which allows the driver to modulate the volume of air passing into a fuel injection induction system.
Air Throttle/Throttle Body - The component which allows the driver to regulate the volume of air passing into a fuel injection induction system.
I cannot find any definition of MAF pr MAP pr AFM.
Mr. Amy's post #70 is very well founded. Other than a 'metering rod' there is no definition of metering in the GCR; and that definition lends itself not to a measurement device, but one that regulates an amount.
Get the language to actually mean what you want it to. My VW has a MAF in-line to the Throttle Body. If I put in an alternate ECU hooked to equivalent sensorsand a MAP it is no longer serves any purpose. Regulating the volume of air could be found by many to mean metering. Why not just say that all air entering the engine must pass through the original MAF or other equivalent device?
Pouring oil on the slippery slope....
DZ
Air Throttle - The valve which allows the driver to modulate the volume of air passing into a fuel injection induction system.
Air Throttle/Throttle Body - The component which allows the driver to regulate the volume of air passing into a fuel injection induction system.
I cannot find any definition of MAF pr MAP pr AFM.
Mr. Amy's post #70 is very well founded. Other than a 'metering rod' there is no definition of metering in the GCR; and that definition lends itself not to a measurement device, but one that regulates an amount.
Get the language to actually mean what you want it to. My VW has a MAF in-line to the Throttle Body. If I put in an alternate ECU hooked to equivalent sensorsand a MAP it is no longer serves any purpose. Regulating the volume of air could be found by many to mean metering. Why not just say that all air entering the engine must pass through the original MAF or other equivalent device?
Pouring oil on the slippery slope....
DZ
Wheeeeeeeee...... :026: Now where did I put that traction control code....
I believe that has been done at least twice now in writing to the CRB. As best I can tell, the reasoning for not publishing the process for each car is that it can't be explained well enough so as to not generate a bunch of questions due to the subjectivity involved and the ITAC doesn't want to be inundated with lots of questions about specific car weights. I disagreed with this reasoning back when I wrote my letter and, amazingly enough, I still disagree with it. How every car's weight was determined should be public information available to anyone and everyone and should be publicly published. If that generates questions, so be it. People should have the ability to question how their car's (or their competitor's car) weight was determined. The ITAC should have good answers to those questions.
The only reason I even know as much about the "process" as I do is due to this forum. I don't know how I'd feel if I was someone who had no idea what mechanism was used to determine my car's weight. Maybe some people like being ignorant, I don't. I don't think it's too much to ask for this information to be publicly published. Other people think differently.
David
I believe that has been done at least twice now in writing to the CRB. As best I can tell, the reasoning for not publishing the process for each car is that it can't be explained well enough so as to not generate a bunch of questions due to the subjectivity involved and the ITAC doesn't want to be inundated with lots of questions about specific car weights. I disagreed with this reasoning back when I wrote my letter and, amazingly enough, I still disagree with it. How every car's weight was determined should be public information available to anyone and everyone and should be publicly published. If that generates questions, so be it. People should have the ability to question how their car's (or their competitor's car) weight was determined. The ITAC should have good answers to those questions.
The only reason I even know as much about the "process" as I do is due to this forum. I don't know how I'd feel if I was someone who had no idea what mechanism was used to determine my car's weight. Maybe some people like being ignorant, I don't. I don't think it's too much to ask for this information to be publicly published. Other people think differently.
David
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
David,
I understand the frustration but what I don't understand is the lack of desire to accept what we are telling you here. If it were a formula, it would be very easy to publish. It's so not. The framework has been pubished here numerous times - in a place where a dialogue can happen and things can be described and explained. Creating more questions than answers is juts not a smart way to go. ANYONE can ask the history behind the weight of their car and they will get an answer - and probably a whole description of the ins and outs of the process if things don't make sense to the requestor.
I guess I resent the fact that *I* am feeling like you think we are hiding something when we are not.
We all will never agree on everything but the door to the ITAC is always open for questions and answers.