December Fastrack

Yes, there is a flapper valve. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that valve control fuel flow? It moves in response to the air flowing into the engine through the air metering device.
No Andy, I said that an AFM is a meter. That would be a measuring device, not a metering device. The excerpt from FasTrack only mentions [
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It is a mass air flow sensor in every aspect. It uses basic physics to measure the mass flow rate of air into the intake. In the CIS cars the information gathered is mechanically communicated to the fuel metering device, but that does not change what it is.

No way no how that plate can be modified or removed under current, or 2008 IT rules.

Now - you CAN use whatever computer you want to alter the resulting fuel flow from the system. Maybe control the differential pressure regulator of a CIS-E system to get optimum fueling in all conditions. I don't know CIS basic well enough to know if/what you could change controls wise...beyond the adjustable warmup regulator trick.
 
It is a mass air flow sensor in every aspect. It uses basic physics to measure the mass flow rate of air into the intake. In the CIS cars the information gathered is mechanically communicated to the fuel metering device, but that does not change what it is.

No way no how that plate can be modified or removed under current, or 2008 IT rules.

Now - you CAN use whatever computer you want to alter the resulting fuel flow from the system. Maybe control the differential pressure regulator of a CIS-E system to get optimum fueling in all conditions. I don't know CIS basic well enough to know if/what you could change controls wise...beyond the adjustable warmup regulator trick.
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Good point Chris, I was caught up in the electronic aspect of it. Nicely done. :023:
 
1> As I read the fire system rule, I see no change to the exemption of handling of fire systems for IT and showroom that reads below - is it correct that this has not changed

9.3.22. FIRE SYSTEM All cars shall be equipped with an On-Board Fire System except Showroom Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring.

B. Hand-Held Fire Extinguisher Requirements
The following are acceptable for Showroom Stock, Touring and Improved Touring cars:
1. Halon 1301 or 1211, two (2) pound minimum capacity by weight.
2. Dry chemical, two (2) pound minimum with a positive indicator showing charge. Chemical: 10 BC Underwriters Laboratory rating, potassium bicarbonate (Purple K) recommended, 1A10BC Underwriters Laboratory rating multipurpose, ammonium phosphate and barium sulfate or Monnex.
3. The fire extinguisher shall be securely mounted in the cockpit. All mounting brackets shall be metal and of the quick-release type.

As such, as long as I have a handheld system conforming to 9.3.22.B installed in the car I meet the rules, correct?

Also, if I have a non conforming system, is it correct that I can keep it as long as I nstall a hand held system?

Finally, as a comment to SCCA, when you rewrite rules, it is common for rulesmaking bodies to indicate added text by underlining it. Presently, it seems like you only show the deletions as strikethroughs but not the additions. As I read this section as shown in Fastrac it is not clear if the text shown replaces 9.3.22.A or is simply additive as the published. This is what fastrac says

"Effective 11/1/07: Change section 9.3.22.A as follows:Cars registered after 1/1/09 shall comply with the following on-board fire system requirements:...."`As I am trying to interpret this, what happened to the 2007 GCR section of nozzle and manual or automatic language below?
"A. On-Board Fire System Requirements
1. On-board fire systems shall use Halon 1301 or 1211, with a five (5) pound minimum capacity (by weight). There shall be a minimum of (2) nozzle locations, one in the driver’s compartment and one in either the engine area or the fuel cell area. Manual or Automatic release is allowed."

I suppose it means this replaces the present 9.3.22.A text. A complete listing of the revised section with strikouts and additions underlined would eliminate this confusion. Also, when proposed to the membership, it would help them realize the complete change.
 
So would a crank trigger be an equivalent to a distributor/HALL SENSOR?

Does anyone know a good place to buy a nicely priced Sparco suit?



Sounds like NASA might be getting more business!
 
David,

I understand the frustration but what I don't understand is the lack of desire to accept what we are telling you here. If it were a formula, it would be very easy to publish. It's so not. The framework has been pubished here numerous times - in a place where a dialogue can happen and things can be described and explained. Creating more questions than answers is juts not a smart way to go. ANYONE can ask the history behind the weight of their car and they will get an answer - and probably a whole description of the ins and outs of the process if things don't make sense to the requestor.

I guess I resent the fact that *I* am feeling like you think we are hiding something when we are not.

We all will never agree on everything but the door to the ITAC is always open for questions and answers.
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I respect the work the current ITAC has done and think for the most part it has been good so don't take this the wrong way, but....

The "previous" ITAC (I really have no idea where the line was drawn between the "new" ITAC and the "old" ITAC) also had a formula/framework/methodology/whatever you want to call it for determining car weight (and before you say no they didn't, I would bet that they discussed most of the same things you guys discuss when weighting a car). Maybe it was written down somewhere, maybe it wasn't. They said trust us, we know what we're doing. Along comes the "new" ITAC who says the "old" ITAC's method of weighting cars was flawed and they have the new and improved method. A framework is shown (as far as I know, only on this forum) which bases a car's weight on a 25% performance improvement over stock along with adding weight for specific features that are perceived to be performance enhancing. It turns out, however, that this is a really loose framework and there's a whole lot of subjectivity in the process. That 25% number isn't hard and fast and may go up or down and weight may or may not be added for features and could even be subtracted. Some cars even have their weight set below what the process determines due to "outside" considerations. The process for a car is so subjective that it is apparently too difficult to explain it without a long, drawn out discussion. Since it's too difficult to explain we are supposed to just trust that it is correct.

I compare this to when scientists develop a new theory or run experiments. If I'm a scientist and I proclaim that I have this new theory or that I've shown reaction X produces substance y, but I don't tell how I developed the theory or how I ran my experiments then other scientists are going to view my results skeptically. That's why scientist publish theories and experiments in journals so that they can be vetted and reviewed. Sometimes, as with cold fusion, other scientists prove them totally bogus. Most of the time, some holes are poked in the theory or experiment and it gets revised and comes out better for it.

Do I think the ITAC is hiding something? No. Do I think the ITAC is afraid some holes are going to get poked in how cars were weighted? Yes.

I at least hope that the current ITAC has written down somewhere how each car was weighted so that the next generation ITAC can look at that information, even if it doesn't get publicly published. That way, when the current ITAC'ers are long gone, the next gen'ers aren't wondering how the hell the previous ITAC came up with a car's weight.

David
 
David:

You seem like a fairly intelligent guy (seriously, you do!). Based on the dataset that you have (aka the GCR), why don't you work on a formula that produces results close to what is listed in the GCR. Even if you just did one category (say, ITC, since they have like -2 horsepower).

I'm sure everyone (ITAC and all of us) would love to see a formula that takes all the variables into account. Then it could be published and, heck, used by the rest of the classes in the SCCA!! (Just change the original multiplier factor or something)

Just think, your formula could completely reshape the SCCA and make things a little clearer for everyone (though only about 50% of the people will be satisfied with the work...) :D
 
An interesting point has come out of this discussion. It's been stated (several times) that the 'process' has been discussed several times on this board, so that there's nothing more to be gained by publishing it. What this assumes, is that everyone (in the IT community) reads this forum. I'd buy that, except that it's also been said that this forum is not valid for determining the wishes of the IT community, because not everyone reads it (look at the comments re: jacking point poll). So, this forum is good enough (and far-reaching enough) to disseminate information to the IT community, but not good enough to collect data from it.

/edit/ There was a previous method for spec'ing IT cars, although some will claim that it was never official. I got it from the guy that used to have Jeramy T's job, Sven Pruett. I'll have to dig back, to make sure I remember it correctly, but IIRC, it was 95% of the published curb weight, plus 115# for the cage, minus 115# for the 'stuff' you could legally remove, plus 180# for the driver. That netted out to 95% of curb weight, plus 180#. Didn't take any other factors into consideration. That being said, nobody has ever been able to produce any hard evidence as to how it was applied.
 
An interesting point has come out of this discussion. It's been stated (several times) that the 'process' has been discussed several times on this board, so that there's nothing more to be gained by publishing it. What this assumes, is that everyone (in the IT community) reads this forum. I'd buy that, except that it's also been said that this forum is not valid for determining the wishes of the IT community, because not everyone reads it (look at the comments re: jacking point poll). So, this forum is good enough (and far-reaching enough) to disseminate information to the IT community, but not good enough to collect data from it.
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Yeah! What he said.

BTW: Harumpf
 
To Andy, & the other ITAC members,

Given that David is not the first to question it, and I'm sure will not be the last, how difficult would it be to post a short narrative of how "the process" works, to give everyone a little better idea of what factors are considered in setting a car's weight? The write-up would show the constants used (e.g. target wt/hp ratios for each class and the "default" assumed IT power gains for a typical 4 cyl engine), and would then go on to illustrate some of the variables that could be used to determine whether further weight adjustments would be made. It could be something like:
  1. Determine the HP gains based on a professional, 100% IT engine build. In cases where there is no reliable documentation for actual gains, an assumed gain of 25% will be used as a basis for determining weight...
  2. Multiply the calculated IT HP by the target WT/HP ratio for the class. The target ratios are: ITC - 19:1, ITB - 17:1, ITA - 15:1...
  3. Determine if there are any inherent strengths or weaknesses in the design & construction of the car. Areas such as suspension type, engine location, brake system design, aerodynamics, weight distribution, etc., etc., etc. will all be taken into consideration, and weight may be adjusted up or down based on these factors...
  4. Etc.
  5. Etc.
This is obviously very simplistic, but I hope you get the idea. We could post the thread as a "stickie" in the rules forum, and then any time someone asked how "the process" works, we could point them to the thread. I know this would take some work on the ITAC's part, but I do think it would go a long way toward answering many of the questions that come up. JMHO.
 
...and the point at which the basics of the process get posted, it becomes fodder for picking of nits re: everything from first assumptions to "you need to add 5 pounds to the FWD factor, because it's not close enough!" Bah. Total waste of time.

I'm a formula guy from WAY back but recognize that we have no need for the kind of big-picture validity (generalizability) that scientists strive for with their data collection. What we need - and I think we pretty much have - is internal validity (we are pretty sure that we're measuring what we think we are and that it matters, given the application of the data) and consistency, both in terms of test-retest and inter-rater repeatability.

If five ITAC'ers can independently take the same inputs and arrive within 20# of each other's outcome (weight spec), then that's pretty damned good. If you can ask Andy to spec the same car twice, blindfolded, with a year between attempts, and he gets the same level of consistency, that's pretty damned good.

In terms of the "old ITAC," there really isn't such a thing. The committee as we currently understand it was constituted what, seven years ago...? It's first and most lasting major effort was to develop what has turned into the current process. The second major milestone was the Great Realignment (2 years ago? I'm getting senile), that was the FIRST attempt in the 25 year history of the category to put a majority of the cars on the same laying field. Prior to that, we had the approach that Bill describes but you'll notice that it's JUST about setting the weight. You can't tweak performance by examining only one factor or dimension, so that was simply apples to today's oranges.

Prior to THAT, we had all manner of processes for classifying and spec'ing weights, depending on which individual or group did it. If you don't remember the period when the CoB wouldn't even seriously entertain requests about IT car classification, or would tell you with a straight face that a Neon or Civic Si was an ITS car, then maybe you don't appreciate where we are.

It ain't perfect but it's a HELL of a lot better than it was.

And I don't think that Andy believes that we should count on this forum as an official conduit for information about the category. I know he doesn't, as he's recently said so much. I'm confident that the ITAC would respond informally to ANY inquiry that came to them, as long as it included the necessary data to run the process. The only complaint I might have is that it seems to be impossible to locate contact information for the ad hoc committees on the new SCCA web site, to help allow that to happen.

K
 
The only complaint I might have is that it seems to be impossible to locate contact information for the ad hoc committees on the new SCCA web site, to help allow that to happen.
[/b]
Let me help with that.

To find the committee members:

Go to www.scca.com
Click "Log in"
Enter your member number and password
Click "Directory" at the bottom of the left column
Click "Boards and Committees"
Click "IT Committee"

The link is here, but I suspect it won't work if you're not logged in.
 
...and the point at which the basics of the process get posted, it becomes fodder for picking of nits re: everything from first assumptions to "you need to add 5 pounds to the FWD factor, because it's not close enough!" Bah. Total waste of time.

I'm a formula guy from WAY back but recognize that we have no need for the kind of big-picture validity (generalizability) that scientists strive for with their data collection. What we need - and I think we pretty much have - is internal validity (we are pretty sure that we're measuring what we think we are and that it matters, given the application of the data) and consistency, both in terms of test-retest and inter-rater repeatability.

If five ITAC'ers can independently take the same inputs and arrive within 20# of each other's outcome (weight spec), then that's pretty damned good. If you can ask Andy to spec the same car twice, blindfolded, with a year between attempts, and he gets the same level of consistency, that's pretty damned good.

In terms of the "old ITAC," there really isn't such a thing. The committee as we currently understand it was constituted what, seven years ago...? It's first and most lasting major effort was to develop what has turned into the current process. The second major milestone was the Great Realignment (2 years ago? I'm getting senile), that was the FIRST attempt in the 25 year history of the category to put a majority of the cars on the same laying field. Prior to that, we had the approach that Bill describes but you'll notice that it's JUST about setting the weight. You can't tweak performance by examining only one factor or dimension, so that was simply apples to today's oranges.

Prior to THAT, we had all manner of processes for classifying and spec'ing weights, depending on which individual or group did it. If you don't remember the period when the CoB wouldn't even seriously entertain requests about IT car classification, or would tell you with a straight face that a Neon or Civic Si was an ITS car, then maybe you don't appreciate where we are.

It ain't perfect but it's a HELL of a lot better than it was.

And I don't think that Andy believes that we should count on this forum as an official conduit for information about the category. I know he doesn't, as he's recently said so much. I'm confident that the ITAC would respond informally to ANY inquiry that came to them, as long as it included the necessary data to run the process. The only complaint I might have is that it seems to be impossible to locate contact information for the ad hoc committees on the new SCCA web site, to help allow that to happen.

K [/b]



Thanks for the support and history lesson.
 
I should add that we need to spill some beer on the ground for Darin Jordan every time we have one of these conversations. He's not actually GONE, he just has more sense than to hang out here all the time, but he was really instrumental in getting us headed down this path.

K
 
I should add that we need to spill some beer on the ground for Darin Jordan every time we have one of these conversations. He's not actually GONE, he just has more sense than to hang out here all the time, but he was really instrumental in getting us headed down this path.

K [/b]

+1
 
...and the point at which the basics of the process get posted, it becomes fodder for picking of nits re: everything from first assumptions to "you need to add 5 pounds to the FWD factor, because it's not close enough!" Bah. Total waste of time. [/b]
All I was suggesting was that someone take the time to put into one clear, concise post that which has already been explained several times, so that we have a point of reference for those who maybe haven't read every word of every thread.
 
Earl, Andy's posted the formula previously, on several occasions. I am sure he will do so again if asked.

I understand this seems like a game of hide the ball to some, but it really is not. If you want to know why your car is at the weight it is at, ask, and you'll be told. You'll be told the expected IT prep gain percentage, the subjective adders/subtractions, and the process weight.
 
As such, as long as I have a handheld system conforming to 9.3.22.B installed in the car I meet the rules, correct? [/b]


What section of the GCR defines the minimum fire system/bottle for a Showroom Stock Car?
What section of the GCR requires a system or bottle for a SS Car?

What section of the GCR defines a suitable system/bottle for an IT car?
What section of the GCR requires or says you must or may install either in an IT car?
What section of the GCR says that if the IT rules do not specifically allow it, it can not be done to an IT car?
 
Completely off topic, but...

Can we start a pool on how long it takes a thread in Rules&Regs to become one about the IT weight "Formula?" We could make it a special prize at the ARRC and whomever was closest, without going over, to the actual number of posts in a thread would win. Of course, we'd have to setup rules about people intentionally steering the conversation (maybe create some sort of formul... Oh crap, there I go!)... :D :D :D
 
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