December Fastrack...
- Thread starter Greg Amy
- Start date
Greg, I don't think I'm some sort of hot shit driver. I do however listen to poeple all the time getting into racing. And as a mentor to 5+ poeple a year I have to admit I no longer reccomend the SCCA as a destination for a newb. We no longer have a place for an entry level budget guy to get started. And of the few guys in recent memory that jumped over from time trials to IT racing, jumped back when they realized the level of acceptable body damage to the stewards. NASA is getting stronger and the SCCA is getting weaker for many reasons. Having that inexpensive entry point, that IT used to be, I believe is part of that. I am sure NASA thanks you. Oh, and I believe the club should be inclusive of those weaker classes. Even ITC. You on the otherhand believe that we should bulldoze under anyone that does not meet your criteria. We are worlds apart in our beliefs.
Chris
Chris
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I'm sorry; $3k cars aren't a good place to start? I recall hearing time and time again, "If you can't afford to race a Vee, you can't afford to race." B or Vee, those will get you into the party.
If your students are hell-bent on competing for wins right out of the gate - isn't it your responsibility as a mentor to disabuse them of that notion, in their own best interests, and set some achievable goals?? You know, to finish first you must first finish, and all that?
Or is it better to point them at classes with 2-3-car fields?
Um, isn't the whole point to change that? After all, if you don't commit yourself to improving the situation, aren't you responsible for the status quo? IOW, you're either part of the solution, or part of the problem! Not to mention which, it's a long slow weekend with precious little racing going on, so we've got plenty of time to sit around and argue over coffee!
Besides, the kart tracks don't open till later... 
If your students are hell-bent on competing for wins right out of the gate - isn't it your responsibility as a mentor to disabuse them of that notion, in their own best interests, and set some achievable goals?? You know, to finish first you must first finish, and all that?
Or is it better to point them at classes with 2-3-car fields?
Um, isn't the whole point to change that? After all, if you don't commit yourself to improving the situation, aren't you responsible for the status quo? IOW, you're either part of the solution, or part of the problem! Not to mention which, it's a long slow weekend with precious little racing going on, so we've got plenty of time to sit around and argue over coffee!
Besides, the kart tracks don't open till later... 
JeffYoung
New member
Chris, where do you race IT?
At least in SEDiv, you put a bumper on someone -- even with no damage -- and you get to talk to a steward.
I'm comfortable racing with all of the guys I race with, and have had only one real metal to metal contact that was my fault, and one other that was not -- in 6 years of racing.
Like Vaughn says, whether IT goes national has some debateable points, and some of what you say I can at least understand.
But I do completely disagree with you that (a) IT is some sort of no-talent crash fest (it's the opposite, at least where I race) and (b) IT is not good for the entry level driver.
I think IT is the BEST place to go for an entry level driver. You can buy a used, fairly competitive car for less than $10k in S/A/B, hell less than $5k in B/C.
I've raced NASA. Somewhere above I think Grafton Robertson said it best. NASA is a fun, but the lack of a rigid class structure (something we complaint about in IT) makes the competition level less.
Anyway, if we could have this discussio without slagging IT and name calling, it'd be more productive (and it is necessary I think).
Thanks.
At least in SEDiv, you put a bumper on someone -- even with no damage -- and you get to talk to a steward.
I'm comfortable racing with all of the guys I race with, and have had only one real metal to metal contact that was my fault, and one other that was not -- in 6 years of racing.
Like Vaughn says, whether IT goes national has some debateable points, and some of what you say I can at least understand.
But I do completely disagree with you that (a) IT is some sort of no-talent crash fest (it's the opposite, at least where I race) and (b) IT is not good for the entry level driver.
I think IT is the BEST place to go for an entry level driver. You can buy a used, fairly competitive car for less than $10k in S/A/B, hell less than $5k in B/C.
I've raced NASA. Somewhere above I think Grafton Robertson said it best. NASA is a fun, but the lack of a rigid class structure (something we complaint about in IT) makes the competition level less.
Anyway, if we could have this discussio without slagging IT and name calling, it'd be more productive (and it is necessary I think).
Thanks.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Greg slipped this one in close to year end. Getting my vote for best of the year. Read it as truth.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
And this is where we are at odds. Just because you have to have a great car and be a solid drive in some areas has NOTHING TO DO with what it takes to get into SCCA with an entry level budget. I think it's absolutely foolish to think that in ANYTHING in life, you can come into something with entry level money, talent and knowledge - and think you are going to win.
Maybe where we fail is setting the expectations of noobs. No, you are not going to win ITA in the Northeast against the likes of Lawton, Dimmino or Hawethorne with your 'just bought' Civic. You need to learn, listen and spend. Simple.
NASA may be gaining in some areas, but it's because IT is so popular. If there wasn't a good pile of excellent competition in ITA, I wouldn't have had to spend what I spent or tested when I tested or studied what I studied. You play to the level of your competition - especially with disposable income.
I challenge you to name a NASA class that is a 'better' entry level than IT. The only reason you could come up with one is on the chance it's a 'not-yet-popular' class that nobody has decided they REALLY want to win yet.
Your definition of SCCA's failure to have an entry level class - isn't a failure at all - it's driven by it's SUCCESS. If you want more field fillers that cherry pick small classes so they can bring home an ashtry, so be it, but IT ain't it anymore.
Entry level to me is simple: Easy to undertand rules, lots of inexpensive used cars for sale, low minimum consumables, etc. IT has all of that. But paying your entry fee in a real 'jalopy' shouldn't get you a win in ANYTHING. If you think that can happen, the class just isn't that great.
A great illustration of precisely what can be most wrong about club racing, Chris - a culture in which a new driver can own a tough looking driver suit and a nice tow rig, spend one weekend a month at some top-shelf track, and take home a flag to hang in the den having beaten nobody.
I've spent 25 years watching people "jump from TT to racing," and in my experience they tend to leave because they have unrealistic expectations in some important regard or another. Effective mentoring can help that but I'd caution you that telling someone they can be "competitive" in NASA for less $$ than in SCCA (and without equal risk of damage?) is doing them a huge disservice. It's frankly just not true.
The only cases I can recall where someone blamed body contact for quitting (like, three?), their lack of judgment or patience was a primary cause of the bent metal. And for those, it wasn't the actual contact that was the problem. It was that they had zero understanding that there would be $$ costs associated with their screw-ups, and hadn't budgeted for their own bad behavior.
K
JeffYoung
New member
This is an interesting phenomenon, and I agree with it -- the idea that SCCA is a natural progression from autox to regional to national.
In my view, it's archaic and mostly gone. When I started IT racing in 2004, I'd done a few BMW track days but no autox. I picked IT because, well, I could race a TR8 and becuase I liked the ruleset. Simple. Easy to do. I bought my car for $7k as a street car and got it on track for another $5k. More than most, but not terrible with most of the cost of the car being initial purchase of a fairly rare automobile.
I quickly learned that IT fields were large, fast, and had a ton of talent. Way more than the National weekends I flagged at. Sure, one or two of the National gusy, like Greg Ira in his EP 240, were obviously very, very fast.
But so too was ITS -- the talent level there was astounding. James Clay and Seth Thomas. David Haskell and Sylvain Tremblay. John Williams and Chet Whittel. Basically, a bunch of guys who either went on to pro racing or could have.
While ITS has seen a participation drop (admittedly talent level, although there are still some really FAST guys out there), we still have a great core group that I'd put up against a "National" field at any time really. And ITA and B right now have a bunch of great cars and drivers.
What's interesting to me is that of the IT guys who DID go race prod, they went regional prod and did so not to "move up" but because they wanted to do more to their cars.
About the only "ladder guy" I know right now is Ruck in what, FP? And he won the Boreoffs in his first or second year there after years in IT.
In my view, it's archaic and mostly gone. When I started IT racing in 2004, I'd done a few BMW track days but no autox. I picked IT because, well, I could race a TR8 and becuase I liked the ruleset. Simple. Easy to do. I bought my car for $7k as a street car and got it on track for another $5k. More than most, but not terrible with most of the cost of the car being initial purchase of a fairly rare automobile.
I quickly learned that IT fields were large, fast, and had a ton of talent. Way more than the National weekends I flagged at. Sure, one or two of the National gusy, like Greg Ira in his EP 240, were obviously very, very fast.
But so too was ITS -- the talent level there was astounding. James Clay and Seth Thomas. David Haskell and Sylvain Tremblay. John Williams and Chet Whittel. Basically, a bunch of guys who either went on to pro racing or could have.
While ITS has seen a participation drop (admittedly talent level, although there are still some really FAST guys out there), we still have a great core group that I'd put up against a "National" field at any time really. And ITA and B right now have a bunch of great cars and drivers.
What's interesting to me is that of the IT guys who DID go race prod, they went regional prod and did so not to "move up" but because they wanted to do more to their cars.
About the only "ladder guy" I know right now is Ruck in what, FP? And he won the Boreoffs in his first or second year there after years in IT.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
[sic]
'For their sake, why not just send them to Dave Gran? He has a complete mentoring program that has a history of successfully placing people in racing. Setting appropriate expectations is on key element of what he does, and he does it without twisted standards.
Wow. Um, again, the answer is right under your nose, but you're too blind to see. Buy a Prod car for $5 or 6K. It doesn't have to be fast. Go to Regionals. Run around the track, hit nobody, and take home a trophy. Low cost, low contact, low risk, big returns...isn't that your nirvana of entry level racing?
Chris, maybe you haven't paid attention:
1-ANY class that is popular will breed increased prep levels, testing and competiveness. Read: expense.
2-I suggest your reports of contact might not be entirely accurate. I've not been hit in a couple years of racing. (over 25 races, plus practice, test, and qualifying sessions, and included passes/repasses for the lead, and multi class racing). The hits I DID have were intentional, and asked for front to rear. I had a student recently who, after tangling with a car in his school came in all hot and annoyed that the guy took out his rear quarter. I sat him down and told him if he had given the guy racing room, it never would have happened. He said "I never thought he'd try a pass there". Well, newbie, when you're that slow, yea, people are going to pass you, and you better not be slamming the door. Point being: Blame went to HIM. Maybe new guys who have issues are equally responsible? Its racing, not TT-ing. You need to be a racer when you're racing. Chose a class with no racing if you want it easy...
3: NASA has the PT category for run what you brung. It's complex and has a host of issues. It might be a great idea, and is certainly a great way to get TT-ers out without forcing them to make a car that meets a rigid class ruleset. But actual even up racing isn't really, it's strength. SCCA is about racing. First and foremost.
That said, there are PLENTY of areas within SCCA for entry level buys and racing experience.
You just need to align expectations with realities. It sounds like your grasp of reality isn't sufficient to do so.
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Jake, the last guy I mentored went to 5 or 6 races and watched you guys. I don't tell poeple what class to run. I just play devils advocate and tell them the pitfalls of each. This guy has many years of road racing motorcycles. He could only assume the way the IT and SM crowd do damage to each other that you all must have great sponsorship. When I told no such luck, he thought the bulk of you need to reassess what your there for. He almost opted out, but his burning desire to be an adreniline junkie won. He, after an exhaustive look at all sides, got an AS/ITE Mustang as he wants to get reasonbly safe track time to learn the craft. Its not what I would have picked, but he got a good deal on a car. As he said, its a limited prep AS(never heard of it) and his investment is low. And sorry, anyone that drives IT is not a direction that I would send someone that does not know any better. You guys are to gung hoe on your crusade to conquer the world.
Chris
PS let me know how storming the castle goes.
Chris
PS let me know how storming the castle goes.
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Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Lumping IT in with SM is a big mistake.
Huh?
You aren't getting it Chris. Nobody is up-in-arms about IT being regional. Actually, I think it's about 50-50 for-against going National. Fair arguements on both sides I guess. But I will say this, if your opinion of IT and its racers is what the majority of 'national' guys feel, you are destined to spin your wheels fighting for your mediocre numbers. I bet if IT went National, a good chunk of the current drivers would consider the class based on it's rules.
Anyway, I hope some of the CRB/BoD guys are reading this and take note at how some of the club thinks. It's attitudes like that that hold the SCCA back every day.
JeffYoung
New member
Wow. I agree with Andy.
I'm fairly new to the club but pretty quickly "got" that there were serious issues with National racing, and their attitude and in particular their attitude towards IT. I also "got" that the competition levels in IT were on average significantly higher than in National classes, and that I really liked my "outlaw" regional class that was not subject to some of the vagaries of National control.
Last, I also "got" that IT and later SM basically pay the way for the Club Racing program.
I'd like to think I could grow a bit as a club member, and a person, and move beyond some of those prejudices, but when I see similar things coming from National it sure reduces the desire to do so.
I'm fairly new to the club but pretty quickly "got" that there were serious issues with National racing, and their attitude and in particular their attitude towards IT. I also "got" that the competition levels in IT were on average significantly higher than in National classes, and that I really liked my "outlaw" regional class that was not subject to some of the vagaries of National control.
Last, I also "got" that IT and later SM basically pay the way for the Club Racing program.
I'd like to think I could grow a bit as a club member, and a person, and move beyond some of those prejudices, but when I see similar things coming from National it sure reduces the desire to do so.
As they say, "Fixed that for you, Andy." The bottom line is that a certain portion of the current crop of National drivers want nothing more than to protect their turf. Putting very popular classes into their game is not in their individual best interests - irrespective of what might be best for Club Racing growth and viability. I wish I had confidence that Club decision makers were thinking about the program ahead of their individual interests but I don't.
(EDIT - one way that this issue manifests itself is when someone - say, for example, a CRB member who runs a poorly subscribed National class - repeats the mantra over and over that, "Going National will increase the cost of IT." Which is patently crap, BTW.)
I leave the second bit unedited because it bears repeating.
K
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Guys, remember: religious dogma. You're wasting your time, ignore the troll.
Besides, Chris Howard is probably a bit put off - and likely more than a bit embarrassed - that his chosen class, FP, has as its National champion for the last two years an Improved Touring racer, with this year's FP Runoffs National Champion also being this year's ITB ARRC Champion and the last two years' ITA ARRC Champion.
Yeah, that's lightweight competition.
Oops.
Besides, Chris Howard is probably a bit put off - and likely more than a bit embarrassed - that his chosen class, FP, has as its National champion for the last two years an Improved Touring racer, with this year's FP Runoffs National Champion also being this year's ITB ARRC Champion and the last two years' ITA ARRC Champion.
Yeah, that's lightweight competition.
Oops.
JoshS
New member
Actually Greg, I think you're making his point. In his world, IT racers should never be able to just go and win the Runoffs. IT would be cheap entry and serious racers would quickly "graduate" out of IT and learn their technique in some real class, rather than raise the bar in IT.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Remember the old George Carlin joke? "Anyone who drives slower than me is a freaking moron, and anyone who drives faster is a freaking maniac!"?
I think it's like that with certain racers. Certain racers look down on any level they find to be beneath them. national guys scoff at regional guys, Pros scoff at amateurs, Racers scoff at Autocrossers, and so on. Maybe that's what's going on here...
JLawton
New member
It seems to me I always hear two jokes about Prod cars:
1) No one wants to be the run group after them 'cause there's gonna be oil on the track.
2) In the run group with the Prod classes, everyone in the run group gets to take a victory lap.
In my time of running IT, there have been many pro weekends where we get to be a support race. Without fail, the consenses is the IT race is the best of the weekend....
.
1) No one wants to be the run group after them 'cause there's gonna be oil on the track.
2) In the run group with the Prod classes, everyone in the run group gets to take a victory lap.
In my time of running IT, there have been many pro weekends where we get to be a support race. Without fail, the consenses is the IT race is the best of the weekend....
.